B & S Again

[irishexile]

Hello All, Just need a few pointers as to my next step.

 

I made a claim for JSA\HB\CTB in mid December after being out of work for 3 months. Early in January I had to chase the DWP only to find out they had made a mistake on my claim. Once JSA was awarded (approx 2 weeks later) I then contacted my local council to find out if my claim for HB & CTB was being dealt with (they informed me that they had not been informed by DWP that my claim was valid, I asked them to re activate the claim & then had a letter delivered asking if I could supply some supporting documentation (which I have now supplied)

 

In the meantime I have been visited by B & S three times.

 

I have not allowed them in to my home on any occasion. However they did levy on some garden furniture on their second visit ( I have sent letters to both B&S & the local council challenging this, as the sum total of goods at auction will not cover the fee's). The items listed on the levy have now been relocated from my premises (as I consider the levy to be unlawful, If I should I proceed with a section 46 notice I would like to provide the court with physical evidence of the goods levied on)

 

This morning (Sunday @ 07:35) there was knock at my door. I ignored it. Later I checked our letter box, however there was no further letter (as I had expected) relating to van charges etc etc.

 

 

Does anyone have any idea what the next steps B&S may take. I think I will send another letter to the council tomorrow (after making an online payment for £10 tonight) asking for the account to back in to there ownership as I am on JSA & offering to pay a £20 per month.

 

Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Edited February 20, 2011 by irishexile

[hallowitch]

Template Letter to Request Account be Referred Back to Council

 

With thanks to Tomtubby

NOTE: This letter can be adapted to suit your own circumstances and could be used to advise the company that you are in receipt of income support or income based jobseekers allowance and that you wish for your arrears of Council Tax to be deducted at source from your benefits and requesting that the account is returned back to the local authority. You should provide a photocopy if possible, of either your benefit book or confirmation of your entitlement from the benefits agency.

 

 

—

To: Bailiff Company

Date:

Dear Sirs,

Re: Account reference.

I refer to your letter dated

(enter date)

informing me that your company have been instructed by

(enter local authority)

to enforce a warrant/liability order etc against me, in respect of arrears of council tax.

In your letter you state that you will be visiting/returning to my home to

(seize/auction etc my goods.)

unless full payment of

(enter amount)

is made by return.

The purpose of this letter is to advise your company that I am in receipt of

(income support/jobseekers allowance)

and am enclosing as proof, a copy of

(payment book/letter from benefits agency.)

I am informed that deductions can be made directly from my benefits to pay my arrears of council tax. This is provided for in the Council Tax (Deductions from Income Support) Regulations 1993.

For this reason, I would like to request that this account be referred back to

(local authority)

so that the relevant forms can be completed.

I am also aware that once deductions are in place, Regulation 52 of The Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992 expressly forbids any enforcement action.

As I have now made you aware of

(my/our)

circumstances, and provided proof, if your company continues with enforcement action, I will consider making a formal complaint about the bailiff’s conduct to the County Court

Could you please confirm safe receipt of this letter, a copy of which is being sent to my local authority.

 

 

Yours Faithfully.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?123390

[irishexile]

Cheers, Have already sent a very similar letter on Friday (so Should be with them Monday). The main thing I want to check is if there will be any come back on me as I have removed goods they have levied on. Also as I put my claim in for JSA\HB\CTB before B&S took any action I'd like to know if I am liable for any fee's they may try to invoice me with.

 

Thanks for you quick reply.

[irishexile]

Just an update. Today I have had another letter from B&S stating that the confirmed receipt of my original letter stating that the items they had levied on would not cover their fees.

 

They are saying that "There are no restrictions in law as to the amount goods must be valued at to levy or remove. The only requirements are that we provide certain information at the point we levy, which is all detailed within the notice of seizure of goods paperwork"

 

They go on to say they are "more than satisfied we have acted correctly and that the levy is legal and in accordance with the council tax (administration & enforcement) regulations 1992 (as amended).

 

It was my understanding that the items levied on MUST cover all of their costs (including any van fee, storage, auction etc etc) something that approx £80 worth of goods is not going to cover.

 

Do I need to file a summons against the council under section 46 ?

 

Thanks.

[hallowitch]

Detailed Assessment Judgment of Throssell v Leeds City Council where the District Judge ruled as follows:

“Turning to the taxation it seems to me that notwithstanding the fact that there were three liability orders but one visit was made by one bailiff and the maximum that the Council’s reasonable charges can be is the result of applying the formula contained in Schedule 5 paragraph 2 (1) (b) of the Regulations”

 

they cannot charge so many fees if only one visit is made

as for your car how old is it? I.E. would the sale of it actually cover a large percentage of the bill anyway?

a vehicle should only be removed if the proceeds of sale provide that there would be a surplus available to the liability order after deductions for the bailiff fees, , removal storages and auctioneers fees.

 

 

With thanks to Tomtubby

 

 

IMPORTANT...If you need to make a Complaint to the Local Authority then read here.....

It must be remembered that a bailiff enforcing a debt for council tax, National Non Domestic Rates (NNDR) or an unpaid parking ticket

is working as a

agent/contractor

for the local authority.

In this, the local authority cannot simply abdicate responsibility for the actions of their agent/contractor as ultimately, it is the responsibility of the local authority to ensure that a levy is carried out in a lawful manner and that the fees charged by their agents are in accordance with statutory regulations.

 

Following a discussion with the Local Government

Ombudsman

's Office (LGO) they have advised that if you have a Compliant for the Council about their bailiff's then you MUST do the following:

 

.

 

You must ENSURE that you mark your letter to the local authority as a :

FORMAL COMPLAINT.

 

Your letter should be addressed to the

CHIEF EXECUTIVE

and should be

COPIED

to the

COMPLAINTS DEPARTMENT

( this will ensure that it is registered as a formal complaint).

 

It must be understood that under the 1974 Local Government Act the Local Government Ombudsman

only has jurisdication to investigate a complaint if the matter had first been brought to the attention of the local authority and that they had been given the opportunity to respond.

 

If you are unsatisfied with your response from the local authority then you can take your complaint to the

Local Government Ombudsman

but they will want to see that you have gone through the councils COMPLAINTS PROCEDURE first and that you have allowed the local authority a maximum period of 12 weeks to respond.

 

The Local Government Ombudsman's office will need to satisy themselves that you have made it CLEAR to the Local Authority that you are making a

FORMAL COMPLAINT.

 

.

[night-watchman]

This morning (Sunday @ 07:35) there was knock at my door. I ignored it.

.

 

Bailiffs are not permitted to call on a Sunday - Would be interesting to see them justify that if it was a bailiff

[irishexile]

Update: Could really do with some pointers. My local council have written back saying that because my wife is working they will not recall the account back from B&S, I offered to let them take a direct deduction from my JSA (we have managed to get by, just about on my wife's take home pay (£1040 PCM,rent £795 PCM)) I am still waiting for my local council to process my application for housing & council tax benefit ( almost 3 months since my initial claim was made).

 

Any Ideas ?

[irishexile]

any ideas ???

[tomtom013]

Just an update. Today I have had another letter from B&S stating that the confirmed receipt of my original letter stating that the items they had levied on would not cover their fees.

 

They are saying that "There are no restrictions in law as to the amount goods must be valued at to levy or remove. The only requirements are that we provide certain information at the point we levy, which is all detailed within the notice of seizure of goods paperwork"

 

They go on to say they are "more than satisfied we have acted correctly and that the levy is legal and in accordance with the council tax (administration & enforcement) regulations 1992 (as amended).

 

It was my understanding that the items levied on MUST cover all of their costs (including any van fee, storage, auction etc etc) something that approx £80 worth of goods is not going to cover.

 

Do I need to file a summons against the council under section 46 ?

 

Thanks.

 

I had a similar problem recenlty and had the levy and fees removed thanks to PlodderToms help.

 

A valid levy must have an inventory listing all goods. So they cannot use language like ALL garden furntiture etc.

 

“Davies v Property & Reversionary Co Ltd (1929) 2 KB 222. Kerby v Harding (1851) 6 Exch 234 states " a list of all goods" is too vague as neither debtor nor any later attending bailiff can identify the items. The Company should already know that the decision in Davies was confirmed in Ambrose v Nottingham City Council (2004)”.

 

A valid levy must also meet the following:

1) Cover all bailiff costs & charges.

2) Cover all removal & storage charges.

3) Cover all costs of the auction.

4) Cover all the Auctioneers fees.

5) Pay off a proportion of the debt owed.

 

If your levy, like mine, does not meet this cirteria then send the Council and baillifs a joint recorded letter giving them seven days to remove the levy and fees or else you will request a summons under the regulation 46 Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regs 1992 at the Magistrates Court.

 

By the way, you can pay your council tax bills using there online payment system. This is what I do but obviously depends on how comfortable you feel about doing this. In any event there is no law stating that you have to pay the bailiffs, it would just **** them off

[irishexile]

Bump. Advise Please from some of the CAG senior members........I am starting to swim against the tide here....

[wonkeydonkey]

The advice given in post #9 is sound and this was given originally by Ploddertom who may not be classed as a "senior cag member" he is nontheless a well informed cag member....

"A valid levy must have an inventory listing all goods. So they cannot use language like ALL garden furntiture etc.

 

“Davies v Property & Reversionary Co Ltd (1929) 2 KB 222. Kerby v Harding (1851) 6 Exch 234 states " a list of all goods" is too vague as neither debtor nor any later attending bailiff can identify the items. The Company should already know that the decision in Davies was confirmed in Ambrose v Nottingham City Council (2004)”.

 

A valid levy must also meet the following:

1) Cover all bailiff costs & charges.

2) Cover all removal & storage charges.

3) Cover all costs of the auction.

4) Cover all the Auctioneers fees.

5) Pay off a proportion of the debt owed.

 

If your levy, like mine, does not meet this cirteria then send the Council and baillifs a joint recorded letter giving them seven days to remove the levy and fees or else you will request a summons under the regulation 46 Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regs 1992 at the Magistrates Court."

[ploddertom]

Just an update. Today I have had another letter from B&S stating that the confirmed receipt of my original letter stating that the items they had levied on would not cover their fees.

 

They are saying that "There are no restrictions in law as to the amount goods must be valued at to levy or remove. The only requirements are that we provide certain information at the point we levy, which is all detailed within the notice of seizure of goods paperwork"

 

They go on to say they are "more than satisfied we have acted correctly and that the levy is legal and in accordance with the council tax (administration & enforcement) regulations 1992 (as amended).

 

Some of the biggest pile of s**t this lot have come out with for a long time. If that's the case then why don't they levy on the fag ends dropped on the ground. The whole idea of levying on your goods is to use that as lever to persuade you to pay, if they only levied on a couple of quids worth of goods then everyone would tell them to go ahead.

 

It was my understanding that the items levied on MUST cover all of their costs (including any van fee, storage, auction etc etc) something that approx £80 worth of goods is not going to cover.

 

Do I need to file a summons against the council under section 46 ?

 

Thanks.

 

You need to tackle this with your local Council with as you say a Regulation 46 Complaint. here's an example of what to use

 

 

Mr Jo Blogs

1, High Street

Anytow

Post Code.

 

The Chief Clerk

xxxx Magistrates Court

 

Date:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Council Ref: xxxxxx

 

I am writing to request that you issue a Summons against xxxxxxx Council by virtue of Regulation 46 Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regs 1992 as a matter of urgency.

 

 

I am aggrieved by the levy carried out by Mr Smith of ABC Certificated Bailiffs on (enter date) for the following reason:

 

* The Bailiff visited my premises and he has provided a Notice of Seizure of Goods & Inventory advising me that he has levied against a vehicle that was outside/on the drive of my home.

* This vehicle is not owned by me. I do not know the owner of the vehicle and it would appear that the Bailiff has assumed that this is my car because it was parked close to my home.

* The Bailiff in seizing this vehicle, has charged me a levy fee of £50 together with an enforcement fee of £150 and I am advised that unless I pay the amount of the Laibility Order of £xxx together with the charges associated with this levy, that the Bailiff will be attending at my property to remove this vehicle to satisy my Council Tax arreas and in addition I will also be liable for further charges for "attending to remove" and I could also be in position of being personally liable to the owner of the vehicle.

* I have written to the Bailiff Company and the local authority concerning this levy but my complaints have been ignored.

 

I trust that this information will be sufficient and please do not hesitate to contact me if you require any further information.

Yours faithfully"

 

Obviously change it to fit your own circumstances.

 

PT

[irishexile]

PT (you are an absolute star), Cheers for your input. I will go ahead with the summons against the council & keep you updated with how things go. Are you OK if I PM you with my councils name, as you seem to be able to find out if they have outsourced Council Tax collection. Thanks again for your help.

[ploddertom]

PT (you are an absolute star), Cheers for your input. I will go ahead with the summons against the council & keep you updated with how things go. Are you OK if I PM you with my councils name, as you seem to be able to find out if they have outsourced Council Tax collection. Thanks again for your help.

 

No problem with a PM however for fairness it is better most things are conducted in public. One way of seeing if your Council outsource is to have a look at the website address that comes up for payment of CT or strangely enough a phone call asking them outright.

 

PT

[irishexile]

After sending several letters & emails the. Council have agreed to a payment schedule (had to get my MP involved). However they are insisting that I make the payments to B&S. I am not happy making payments to B&S so would prefer to make payments directly to the council. Can someone let me know if this will be OK?

[ploddertom]

What is their reasoning for making payments to the Bailiffs? It appears the only concession they have made is to agree a payment plan only. It shouldn't matter how you pay as any default will result in enforcement continuing anyway.

 

I note you have not listed a breakdown of the Bailiff charges and feel you may have to deal with these as a separate issue. You should send off for this ASAP as the chances are the bill will be quite high and that is why the Council are running away. Here's a sample of what to send, do it initially by email backed up with a copy in the post:

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

 

In my view I would pay the Council as agreed but via their website or automated phone service, you may have to budget for Bailiff fees. If asked why just tell them the Bailiff is being an a**e.

 

PT

[tomtom013]

Hi B & S,

 

There is no law which states that you must deal directly with a council tax bailiff.

 

My council forced Equita to accept a payment plan and like you my local MP also got involved. The condition was that the repayments were made to Equita. I refused and have continued to pay the council online for the past 3-4 months.

 

The only issue with this stance is that the baillifs could come knocking on your door ect and unless your okay with this then the decision of who to pay is ultimately yours.

 

The only sure fire way of not dealing with the bailiffs is by getting your account sent back to the council which in my case has proven a dead end. However, if you think you have a good case then try emailing the CEO of your council, giving him/her a full acount and why you think the counvil should take the account back.

 

Good luck TT

[irishexile]

PT Here is the reply I have been sent by my local MP. BTW we do qualify for CTB as they have confirmed (by letter today) they are re calculating our bill at the moment (can't wait to tell the MP he has been lied to by the council & also be able to back it up with written examples)

 

have investigated your case and received a response from relevant Council Officers. I am told that since August 2010 you have paid a total of just £20 towards your Council Tax and that £740 is now outstanding. Due to this situation the Council is not prepared to withdraw your case from the Bailiffs.

Whilst I understand that you are on benefits, I am told that your wife is working and your income will be too high to qualify for Council Tax benefit.

 

The Council is prepared to accept payment of a minimum of £70 per month to clear the arrears on the account, which is much lower than would usually be accepted. However, it is important that you begin payments for the new tax year on time and maintain them. Please contact the Bailiffs to make them aware of the total amount you will be paying as soon as possible in order to bring this situation under control.

I hope that this reduced payment amount to clear the arrears is of assistance to you.