Speeding ticket and improvement course.

[hhh_88873]

Ok heres my dilemma.

 

I recently got flashed on a dual carraigeway doing 40mph. Now usually this would be fine as it was signposted as a dual carraige way but there is a 30mph sign about a hundred yards after the speed camera that you obviously arent going to see until youve already been busted.

 

I got the notice and decided I couldnt be arsed fighting it so duly sent off a cheque for £60 and agreed to go on a 4 hour speed awareness course in order to avoid 3 points. The date of the course came an went and in all fairness, I hold my hands up I forgot about it.

 

I since had a huge falling out with my ex partner and she chicked me out of our flat.

 

All my documents etc to do with this are there, and although I have my licence, Im worried that I will get in serious ****e for not going on this course.

 

Only problem is everything to do with it, the notice, my logbook, etc is in my old flat and my ex will not permit me to have anything back s she is intent on causing me as much trouble as possible, she wont even give me my post so I have no idea if anything has come through because of it.

 

I havent yet changed the address on my licence, but will I be able to rearrange the course (bearing in mind this is maybe 2 months old now) and still sit being that I did pay the £60 in good faith? Or should I just sit tight and see if anything comes of it?

[green_and_mean]

You need to contact the organisers if possible, surely you must remember the location or their name, and explain what happened although I'd make up a better excuse than 'just forgot'. They will then contact the Police who will decide if you can rearrange or if you will get the points.

[esmerobbo]

After two months I think one of the things your Ex is not letting you have back is a new FPN. I done the course but somehow they thought I had not, the new FPN was here within two weeks! Luckily I had the certificate to prove I had indeed done it and the FPN was cancelled.

 

You may be lucky but two months may be too long!

[sameagle]

You might also care to contact your local Postmaster, [Postmistresses may also be available!], to have your post re-directed to your present address.

 

It would also be worth reporting that your mail is being withheld; I think that this is a criminal offence, and they may take it up on your behalf, it's worth asking.

 

Sam

[hhh_88873]

Ok I got a bog standard fixed penalty ticket for doing 40 in a 30 zone. (although it was on a sign posted dual carriageway that I thought was national speed limit and the 30 sign was long after the camera sneaky)

 

I took the offer of a drivesafe speed awareness course and duly sent off payment off £60.

 

Heres where it gets a bit tricky.

 

My ex chucked me out of the flat we were sharing and kept ALL my possessions. My tv blu rays worth up wards of a grand, dvds, ps3, tools, car documents driving licence the works.

I have had my solicitor on the case to get access to my daughter and to attempt to recover my stuff.

This was toward the end of last year.

 

Last week I recieved a letter from the enforcement office saying I had a fine of £275 due so I went to the court and had it looked into.

 

Apparently I missed a letter to my old address to do the course, then a summons to court, and then the outcome of the case all to my old address.

My solicitor had told my ex to give me all my documents and post etc but so far she has point blank refused.

 

I made a statutory declaration to the court and to his credit the clerk of the court who advises the magistrates was pretty good about it and has had it squashed to be reopened and for me to be summoned again at a later date and has also instructed hte court to contact my solicitor to look into what my ex is doing about my stuff as my licence will need to be returned in case I am allowed to actually sit the improvement course.

 

What do you think the odds are that Ill be allowed to have the option of doing the course rather than being slapped with the points as my job is dependant on my clean licence and it genuinely wasnt my fault that I didnt know about the other court summons or process and paperwork from my solicitor confirms this.

[nero12]

I suppose i wouldnt do any harm to make an application to the court asking could they place you on another course as you nver recieved notification of the previous cone due to circumstances out of your control. Possibly offer to pay again ??

 

Would extra points loose you your job ???

[green_and_mean]

Apparently I missed a letter to my old address to do the course,

 

I thought you just forgot to go?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?294546-Speeding-ticket-and-improvement-course.&p=3300171&highlight=#post3300171

[hhh_88873]

Id arranged to sort it out but before I could wait for the rescheduled time etc she did what she did. Like I said in that post I didnt know what was going to happen from it all, but I wasnt expecting to just get slapped with a whacking great fine when I didnt know anything about it. As I said to the court, Ive always told all official bodies like the council etc where I was so its not as if they wouldnt have known where I was before it went to court.

[hhh_88873]

HI guys,

 

I asked for some advice a while back regarding a speeding ticket I got.

 

I got flashed doing 40 on a dual carraigeway that was only a 30 limit. There was no signs other a sign saying dual carraigeway between where I pulled on to the carraigeway and where the camera was. There were also no measuring lines on the road to measure speed.

 

I thought sod it, duly accepte responsibilty and sent off £60 to cover a 'speed awareness' course as opposed to copping for 3 points.

 

I was then turfed out by my ex and never got my post or licence back until recently from her.

 

In the meantime I was summonsed, and convicted in my abscence and got 3 points and a £275 fine.

 

Ive now been to court, made a stat dec and had it squashed and reopened.

 

I now have received the re summons and am intending to plead guilty in person at court and request that I be permitted to sit the course I originally paid for as I had no way of knowing what had happened.

 

I also have letters from my solicitor who is handling my case for access to my daughter confirm what happened.

 

I have an interesting thought tho, the date of the offence and the date of the ORIGINAL notice of prosecution is a month apart. Ie the offence was on the 31st, and the notice was issued the following 30th. I was under the impression that ITP notices had to be issued withing 14 days?

 

If I plead guilty in person can I still point out that the ITP notice is invalid? or will I have to go not guilty and risk having my bottom smacked?

[disgruntled2007]

my first thought is that if it's a fixed speed camera, ie a gatso, then the white lines have to be on the road......... It might be worth investigating that....

[hhh_88873]

dont know if this will work, this is the cam that busted me

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=53.524804,-2.138815&spn=0.000879,0.002411&z=19&layer=tc&lci=com.panoramio.all,com.google.webcams&cbll=53.524726,-2.138918&panoid=FlBbOkkS2nA7kq8Gewg0mg&cbp=12,52.56,,0,0

[Cobra11]

From the link it is a

 

TREVELO CAMERA

 

The forward facing Truvelo camera system is designed to take photographs of the front of a passing vehicle, this allows the picture taken to show the driver of the vehicle as well.

 

To avoid the 'flash' which is given out by a rear facing Gatso camera the Truvelo system uses an infra red flash which produces no visible 'flash' to the approaching driver.

These rely on 3 white-lines in the road, painted just before the camera (which are shown on the link), and are triggered by strips in the road, used to gain the vehicles speed.

As for the NIP I am sure someone with a bit more knowledge will hep.

 

 

[hhh_88873]

I always thought that they had to have a way of measuring speed over an average distance? hence the markings? how on earth can they gauge speed when the markings here are little more than a couple of inches apart?

[Cobra11]

Gatso cameras are activated as vehicle crosses radar beam & takes 2 photos 0.5 secs apart,

 

Whilst Truvelo cameras work as follows:

• Sensors in the road record the time at which the vehicle crosses them.
  
• The time difference between sensors 1 and 3, and between sensors 2 and 4, is calculated. These measurements are used to calculate the speed of the vehicle.
  
• If the vehicle's speed is above a preset threshold (eg. 30 mph) then a photo is taken.
  
• There are three white lines painted on the road surface. The photo is taken when the vehicle crosses the middle white line. The other two white lines are set at +/-10%. This is the legal required accuracy
  

[Old Snowy]

Firstly, the law requires that a Notice of Intended Prosecution must be served on the driver or, where this is not possible the, registered keeper within 14 days of the alleged offence where the day of the offence counts as Day 0 when counting forward. Any subsequent NIP is not subject of the same time limit. There are other circumstances, when the 14 days would not apply - for example because there has been a change in ownership or registered address and the DVLA records were being update at the time the police made their initial enquiries. Might any of these apply in the OP's case?

 

Now that a summons has been issued there is no way for you to retrace your steps and to attend the course you originally applied for. In any event the course is not offered by the court but by the police as a means of avoiding process and ther court simply has no means of retrieving that. There are also conditions attached such as completing the course within a set time frame and you've probably stumbled over one of them and the offer has been withdrawn. Additionally, one suspects that if you were to attempt to argue that it is the fault of the police/your ex/the court you would not win any brownie points and are likely to receive the retort "Why didn't you make any enquiries yourself? But, I do understand the point.

 

Aside from the issue of the possible out-of-time NIP all is not necessarily lost. Had you not been eligible for the offer of the course then you would almost certainly (and very much so at the speed you say was alleged) have been entitled to a fixed penalty notice. Assuming for the moment that the NIP issue is a dead duck, you would be quite entitled to ask the court to impose nothing more than the penalty you would otherwise have received from the police (in the absence of the course) i.e. £60 and 3 points. You may still pick up costs and the inescapable Victim Support Levy (£15) but you could still ask that as this is in effect an extra penalty that they waive that as well.

 

As far as the head-on Truvelo camera is concerned I have no idea where the notion originated that they have an "infra-red" flash. They most certainly do not and as I can personally attest it is bright and very visible but to reduce the otherwise blinding effect of it the flash is fitted with a magenta filter - apparently this has less impact on the retina. The road sensors then activate a timer and if all has operated correctly a photo will be taken as the vehicle's front wheel hits the centre, broader white line. If the tyre is not touching this line and is either behind or in front of the outer markers then it is deemed out of sync and no prosecution should ensue.

[hhh_88873]

My argument as to not making enquiries was I simply had no way of doing so. I literally had the clothes I stood up in and nothing else and nowhere to live. My ex had ALL of my possessions and has only recently given me some of them back.

 

The NIP literally says as Ive said it does, offence on the 31st, and the NIP is dated on the 30th of the following month.

 

I paid to do the improvement course, but had absolutely no opportunity to get any communication, post, documents, anything. This can be proved as a police officer attended my address and was there when she refused to return my stuff. He didnt do anything to help, but he was there at least.

 

As to the photo, I havent been given a copy yet so I have no idea.

[Old Snowy]

As already set out in my initial reply, the Speed Awareness Course is now a dead duck and there simply is no way of retrieving it. You failed to comply with the conditions of the offer and as inadvertent as that may have been that aspect is now firmly closed off. One could envisage the question "You might not have had any paperwork but could you not have telephoned the police or called in at your local station?" Specifically, there is nothing the court can do in respect of it as the course are not a part of the justice process in the first place. They are organised and offered solely by the police as an alternative to the judicial route.

 

There may well be an issue with the NIP but you will need to confirm a number of matters before that becomes a viable approach (If indeed no NIP was served on you - assuming you were the registered keeper at the time - then no prosecution can succeed where there is no evidence that a NIP was served on the registered keeper and/or driver within 14 days of the alleged offence. This would stop the prosecution). It would be unusual, though not unheard of, for matters to have progressed to this point in the absence of evidence of timely service of a NIP or an explanation for its having been delayed - if indeed it was.

 

So, were you the registered keeper of the vehicle at the time of the offence? Had you been so for the preceding 3 months? Had you notified DVLA of a change of address during the 3 months preceding the alleged offence? Was the vehicle a company, hire car or one owned by your partner/colleague and lent to you at the time?

[borisbeaver]

I did read somewhere that the lens in some cameras have calibrated lines etched onto to glass so removes the requirement for lines to be painted on the road surface. I may be wrong.

[Old Snowy]

I did read somewhere that the lens in some cameras have calibrated lines etched onto to glass so removes the requirement for lines to be painted on the road surface. I may be wrong.

 

Sadly, another urban myth.

[borisbeaver]

I sit corrected.

[patdavies]

There is no requirement whatsoever for lines on the road for a Gatso; there is for a Truevelo.

 

Gatso requires a secondary check to be performed before prosecution. This was originally done by using size of vehicle in the photographs; latterly and for ease of use, white lines are painted a known distance apart. If the lines are non-existent or covered, then it reverts to the earlier measuring system.

 

Truvelo, when used in front facing mode, takes the single picture of the vehicle (and driver) as the car is on the three closely spaced lines just before the device. This is the secondary check If the device gets the primary speed wrong, then the camera will trigger at the wrong time.

 

And Old Snowy is absolutely correct about the colour of the flash...

[hhh_88873]

The car was a hire car hired for the weekend. and before you ask, the notification sent to them, and them passed on to me was dated exactly the same.

 

Im guessing that they have reprinted the orginal summons etc and just put my details on it as the accepted driver, but it still has the same dates as were sent to the fire firm, ie 30 or so days apart.

[Old Snowy]

It's really not too clear what actually happened. Could you explain in a little more detail the sequence of events in terms of the issuing of NIP's? As explained above, the 14 day limit applies only to the first NIP in any sequence and as yours was the second then the time limit does not apply to it. However, If you are suggesting that the hire company did not receive their NIP within the 14 days then there may still be something that can be run with here.

 

IMO at this stage the likelihood is that at worst - provided you don't royally p*ss off the magistrates - you'll end up with 3 points and £60. If there is an issue with the NIP (the hire company's that is) then the whole case could end up in the long grass.

[hhh_88873]

Ok, I hired the car, got flashed by the camera.

 

Heard nothing for about two months until I got a letter from the hire firm. (No sign of the NIP)

 

They obviously gave my details to the Police.

 

I then got a NIP with the described dates on it. I went to the hire firm and got a copy of the NIP that they got with exactlty the same dates.

 

I sent off payment for the speed awareness course, accepted responsibilty yadda yadda.

 

Then got chucked out by my ex who kept all my post, documents, driving licence etc and she would give me any of it.

 

Ive since had proof that shes been opening my post to find out whats been going on without my permission but thats another matter.

 

I got a notice of further action from the DVLA or whoever saying Id been fined £275 nd been given 3 points.

 

I went to court and did a stat dec, the mags wanted to know what had happened so I explained to them about my ex and I had solicitors letters etc to prove I was telling the truth.

 

The clerk asked what it was I wanted from them and I explained that I felt as I had taken responsibilty for what had happened and hadnt denied that anything, I should be allowed to take the course as well as other mitigating circumstances.

 

The clerk advised the magistrates to squash the repeal the conviction but advised me that I would be summonsed again and it would be up to the mags in question as to what course of action to take.

 

Thats pretty much it.

[hhh_88873]

Problem is as Ive just got into the community team for the fire service, a clean driving licence is quite an important thing. Its not compulsory at all, but its defintily better to have no points rather than 3.