Problems with car bought in private sale

[Linden Ryuujin]

I'm looking for some advice on what my rights are with a car I bought through a private sale. Unfortunatly I can't link to the advert as I don't have enough posts. However if you were to go to the "MR2 owners club" clasified->MK2 section its: "Mk2 MR2 for Sale £600"

 

It mentions:

"head skimmed and head gasket done 200 miles ago"

 

I'm having problems that point to the head gasket as the issue (air in the coolant system) however all test are proving inconclusive so we're going to have to start slowly taking things off and looking at them (expencive @_@). I've taken it to a garage to get the tests done and they tell me they don't think the Head Gasket has ever been replaced (all the original bolts are rusted into place and so haven't been moved for some time and there's no signs of copper grease). I have a garage receipt for the replacement Head Gasket (done by the seller as he works at a garage).

 

I looked at the car before I bought it and it runs fine, generally takes about 20 mins driving before engine heats up enough for it to cause issues (I did take it for a short test drive but not long enough clearly).

 

Does this sound like enough to take action given that he claimed a new head gasket which appears to be a lie. I do have a "sold as seen" receipt but my understanding is the advert is what counts.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Linden Ryuujin
typo

[Surfer01]

"Sold as seen" is totally meaningless even from a private seller however misdescription is an offence and your best course fo action woudl eb to contact Trading Standards with a copy of the advert. I have at present an ongoing case where TS are taking the selelr to court due to misrepresentation. Lot cheaper if they do it for you. See here for your rights when buying privately.

[Boro]

What exactly is the issue? is the cooling system pressurising and losing coolant or is it just that there is some air in the system, if its just air there could be an airlock which is easy enough to sort

[Linden Ryuujin]

Thanks for the quick responses! I shall certainly look into contacting Trading Standards.

 

My first thought was an airlock and there was one in the radiator. Bled it out and the coolant was circulating fine, however when running the engine to get out the last of the air I saw there is a continual stream of bubbles (not many but constant none the less, I'm thinking this is what caused the airlock). The level of coolent remains steady and I haven't found any leaks leading me to think it's the Head Gasket. However pressure tests and sniffer type test are all turning up nothing (no oil in the coolent of visa versa either). At this point both me and the garage are at a loss to what is doing it but Head Gasket seems most likely given the symptoms I'm getting.

 

I'm still hoping it might not be but I'm getting rather annoyed at the attitude of the seller and the fact it appears some of the work claimed has not been done.

[heliosuk]

I looked at the car before I bought it and it runs fine, generally takes about 20 mins driving before engine heats up enough for it to cause issues (I did take it for a short test drive but not long enough clearly).

 

Does this sound like enough to take action given that he claimed a new head gasket which appears to be a lie. I do have a "sold as seen" receipt but my understanding is the advert is what counts.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Does the MR2 actually overheat and what issues does it cause after a 20 min drive. At the moment I think you have little to go on to take action and remember you bought a £600 car.

[Linden Ryuujin]

It is indeed overheating. I realise that £600 is not much for a car, but it is a lot for me. And repairs could easily match that price if I take it to a garage.

 

I am basically trying to assess what kind of evidence I'd need, and if I do indeed have any kind of case. From what you've said I guess it's not looking likely, although I'd like to know why you think that. I'm going to get a statment in writing from the garage that looked at it to the effect that they don't believe the head gasket has been replaced (along with their reasons). But not really sure how to prove it either way to be honest.

[Ed Gasket]

Your post does not make sense. If £600 is a lot for you then why on earth buy an MR2? You can't afford it ! The insurance must be a lot more than that. I don't think you have any case at all against a private seller; you view the car, make your mind up, and that's it. Any problems that came with the car are now yours. Even if the head gasket has gone again, it doesn't mean the seller didn't do the work, just that they didn't do a good job. Presumably you checked the recipts for the head gasket work BEFORE you bought the car if this was a concern for you?

 

Are you sure the overheating is not something straightforward like a seized thermostat or radiator fan switch?

[Linden Ryuujin]

I think your posts doesn't make much sense. I know what I can afford, and actually the insurance is not more than the car. If the work was done poorly that's one thing. It was not done at all then that is false advertising surely? Maybe it's not. If you think its likely to recieve a less favourable hearing because the claims is "only" for £600 then thats fair enough too. Randomly shouting at me because I make a mistake when choosing my car is hardly helpful to anyone.

 

The problem is looking more like the pump which is a much smaller problem. However from the initial symptoms the head gasket was the most likely issue and after investigation it appears it hadn't been replaced as advertised. I'm not going to know for sure without looking and I'm only going to look if I have to as it will be expensive. I did indeed check the receipts. They say it has been done, he did say he had done it himself at the garage where he works (hence having repiepts). See my first posts for reasons why we don't think it has been done.

[Ed Gasket]

OK, well I hope you get it fixed. The thing to bear in mind is that if you get an MR2 for a knock-down price privately (and it is exceptionally cheap), then you can't expect the sort of guarantees you would get had you bought for much more at a dealers, and should expect that some things need attention. There are very few private sellers that sell a perfect secondhand car because if it is perfect, they wouldn't be selling it in most cases.

I don't know why the seller would say 'head gasket etc. done' if it hadn't as on a £600 car it adds nothing to the value; though you could mention the rusty bolts etc. to the seller and see what they say.

[Linden Ryuujin]

It is rather a mystery why he would claim the work if it hasn't been done. Unless he knows of more sersious issues somewhere. But you'd think you'd just keep quiet. I have tried to get more details but he started changing his story (saying it was done further back than the receipts claim, and is stated in the advert) and now has just stopped answering calls (not the best sign). The car does need a lot of cosmetic work. I am expecting to spend money on it, I just wasn't thinking a lot in one go (and so soon after I bought it). To be honest I know it's mostly a case of you pay your money and take your chance but I guess the claims of new bits lulled into not looking as closely as I should in some areas. Obviously I missed something. It still could be the head gasket once I've sorted the pump there's no guaranty that will fix everything but I do live in hope.

It does sound like the general opinion is not that great though on my chances of legal action. Still, good to know. Thanks for the input everyone.

[tommy.king]

Some advice from me.

 

You say you bought the car from a person who makes receipts. is the address on the logbook the same as his were you got the car from?

Have you given the car to a garge to check thoroughly?

 

Personally I would do the following.

Take the car to a garage and tell them to remove the thermostat, this will keep the water flowing even when the car is cold, normally it opens at 80 degrees. It will aid in you removing of the airlock and the car should run cooler.

As long as the tempreture needle doesnt go into the Red you will be ok.

If the machanic is pritty sure the gasket hasnt been changed then you can issue a claim against the person for miss selling, however changing a headgasket doesnt normally leave any signs. If done correctly there will be no sign of silicon leak, and if you use the correct size sockets you wont make them look clean.

Better way to check it is to see if the timing belt has been changed as the wrighting will be like new.

[heliosuk]

Problems like this are notoriously difficult to find. You have on one hand evidence that says the head gasket has been replaced but others say not yet there is a receipt. Now we have the water pump as a possible cause. Along with this you have bought a car for £600.

 

What you need is to assertain exactly what is the cause. I'm personally sceptical that it is the head gasket from the way you describe it and your description of the problem. You need to get someone who can think outside the box so to speak and analyse it. It would appear that people are jumping to conclussions as to the cause of the fault and it might well have fooled the sellar too. However he says he has replaced the gasket and you have a receipt for it so you have to take it on face value that this has happened. The sellar could easily have been misled as are your diagnosis garage

 

To prove it out they need to do what is known as a leakage test. This is not the same as a sniffer test which many garages conduct and is fundamentally flawed.

 

Proper garages have this equipment but then today we don't have mechanics but fitters.

 

What they need to do is weld an air line connection to a hollowed out spark plug and connect it when the piston is at what is known as TDC. This induces air into the syatem and the bubbles will appear where the leak is if in the cooling system or a hiss in the combustion system.

 

When you know the root cause then you know what to go for. In reallity this probably hasn't happened so I very much doubt you have any recourse and to prove it was miss sold would be extreamley difficult unless you pay for the head removal.

[Ed Gasket]

If you are not losing coolant and the oil is not creamy-white then it is unlikely that there is a head gasket problem. The water pump is also unlikely but in rare cases the impeller can become seperated from the pump shaft so that the shaft turns but the impeller does not. I would think changing the pump is also an expensive job; depends if it is driven by the timing belt or not. Best to determine if the thermostat is the problem. There are guides on diagnosing this on the internet; basically along the lines of feeling the top and bottom hoses as the engine warms up and checking the radiator is hot all the way from top to bottom. Best of luck; but I would forget legal action on a £600 private car sale; just fix the problem and move on.

[heliosuk]

Thats a very good point Ed. The impellar type of failure on the pump would cause this type of fault but is extreamly difficult to diagnose unless the pump is removed. I seem to think the MR2 pump is cam belt driven so at the very least Linden is looking at a belt and water pump change just to find out. Would be well worth it though.