British Gas & Power Flush

[Bigmac versus]

Velcro it is one of three things which you should be able to check.

 

1/. First go to the pump and make sure the heating/water is switched on at the timer then put a cloth under the pump and then using a screwdriver turn the silver screw in the center of the pump anticlockwise until it comes out onto your cloth (dont worry about the water, it will be a slow trickle and can be contained easily) then put the screwdriver in the screw hole and see if you are able to stop the motor with only little pressure, if the pump is ok it should rattle the driver but if its at fault you should be able to stop the motor with the driver.

 

2/. Check the Feed and Expansion tank in the attic incase the ballcrane has seized and the tank has emptied, if it has simply lower the arm of the ballcrane and allow the system to fill.

 

3/. If the above has been checked and appear ok then it is more than likely a choked feed you have. To test this you need 2 people, one bleeding an upstair radiator and letting the water run out the rad and into a container, the other checking the Feed and Expansion tank is refilling the system, if after a couple of minutes the water stops coming out the radiator and the F & E does not refill then your system has a choke.

 

Let me know how you get on.

[Bigmac versus]

Hi Jonesfamily what is the make and model of boiler?

[jonesfamily]

Hi its a Baxi Solo

[Bigmac versus]

Hi Jonesfamily the most common fault with these boilers are cracked pipes going to the pressure switch. This can be only be solved by renewing them. They are red and black and they harden up with heat then split, this sounds like what you have.

[boilersystemhelp]

I have just found this site and found all these threads and was hoping that someone would be able to give me some advice.

 

I moved into a new house in October (that had been empty for 12 months before i moved in - so heating had not been used) and its the first time I've ever had a combi boiler system, so when the hot water wasn't working i called out BG. They fitted a new part in the system, drained the system, which was all black water but said that the problem had been caused by sludge and that it would need to be powerflushed. While he was their i asked him to look at the downstairs radiators as the one in the dining room wasn't working at all and the one in the lounge was warm at the top but cold everywhere else. He said that the radiator in the dining room was totally full of sludge. As a single mum i nearly had a heart attach when they quoted me for a new radiator and the powerflush.

 

Anyway my dad came round and replaced both downstairs radiators, and now both don't work at all - not even the hot spots in the lounge one. The pipes are hot to them in the lounge, but in the dining room on one side no water appears to be going in - making me think the pipe to it must be blocked as this goes straight to the loft and is the last radiator in the system. Not sure but it would seem to me there are two problems here. All the other radiators work fine.

 

Since then the boiler has been overheating and switching itself off and BG have said it is the sludge causing it, and if i have to call them out again i will get charged for them fixing the part in the boiler. In terms of the radiators they the guy from BG says the pressure should be the same though all the system as it is sealed and a powerflush will clear the blockages and get both radiators working. If it needs a powerflush to get my heating working again fine - but is it the water? are the pipes blocked? or is it something else? i can't afford to pay out for a powerflush only to find out that these two radiators are still not gonna work.

 

Any advise would be helpful - very confused

Edited February 9, 2009 by boilersystemhelp

[velcro]

Hello BigMac. Thanks for the suggestions, and apologies for the delay in responding. I decided I ought to try out your 3 steps while the system was misbehaving, and as per sod's law, it's been running perfectly since you posted your reply (well, it was still singing, albeit a little less vociforously, but all the rads were heating properly). Until today, that is. It's back to its tepid attempt to heat the house.

 

I've checked the pump - no problems there. I was not able to stop the rotor.

 

I've been into the loft, and the expansion tank had about 4 inches of water in it.

 

My son bled one of the upstairs rads (no air, just water), and shortly after he started, the filler to the expansion tank started first to drip & then flow at about the same rate as it was coming out of the rad. After several minutes, the flow from the rad showed no sign of abating, and the filler pipe was still trickling into the expansion tank. He stopped bleeding the rad, and after a little while, the trickle from the filler pipe slowed & stopped.

 

Any more ideas?

[Warmandsafe]

Hi boilersystemhelp

 

I think powerflushing your system would probably been a better answer. However if you continue to get your dad's help get him to check the radiator valves. He can do this by de-pressuring the system remove the radiator valves and check them one at a time. If they both open and close properly and aren't clogged it may be the pipe work to and from the radiators. Best sorted with powerflush but it might be possible to move sludge by closeing valves and leaving radiators off then repressure system and opening valves one at a time. Should point to what the fault is but be aware of it suddenly spitting black water on to that nice cream coloured rug!

[juliusceasor]

We have not long ago been told we need one of these doing, by the nice man from BG

 

How can I tell if its a genuine requirement or not?

 

These will definitively tell you what is going on in your system no bias to either company

 

Sentinel Performance Solutions | Equipment and Test Kits

 

System Heath Check

 

Many companies provide the test kits to test yourself or for the engineer to check.

 

Powerflushes can make a big difference, costs must be dependent on the system you have and how old and well it has been maintained, and where you are in the country as your water will vary from hard to soft.

There is much good advice on here and plenty of uneducated rubbish.

 

A modern boiler has smaller water ways than older boiler systems and consequently the system needs to be clean and free from sludge to protect the new boiler and to ensure the life and guarantee. Whether you need a powerflush really does depend on the state of your existing heating system.

 

Unfortunately like any industry there are good and bad small or big boys out there who will rip you off, so forewarned is forearmed. read up on the information provided from a host of legitimate companies out there check for the obvious signs of system corrosion and sludge effects then spend the money on a report of your heating system and then decide what degree of cleaning you need.

 

Personally if the system is badly corroded and your radiators are over 10 years old, weigh up the cost benefit of replacing them and flushing the pipework, as new radiators come with 10 year warranties. Often systems that are having new boilers fitted have radiators that are 20 - 30+ years old, frankly these radiators will be less efficient than modern ones and you'll benefit from replacing rather than flushing them

 

Finally not everyone is out to rip you off, not everyone who suggests a powerflush is pushing something you don't need. Ultimatley the customer pushes on price and some will cut corners, the unfortunate problem is some customers pay the price and get poor workmanship as well. You have the ability to check yourself your system (see above links) and make an educated guess on what is required, then you should satisfy yourself that the company will do the work properly ( a poor company trying to bamboozle you will soon be spotted if you know your stuff and likely they will soon disappear if you ask the right questions).

 

I hope that helps.

[unhappybgcus]

Am I being conned. I had a BG condenser boiler fitted 3 years ago at a cost of 4500.00. This included 210.00 for a powerflush (as stated on the quote).I have since had their Homecare agreement which I unfortunately have had to call on numerous times. The first call was the day after it was installed! I have lost track of the different parts I have had fitted - a new pump a few weeks ago , a new seal last week. Anyway this week the last 2 radiators in my kitchen wouldn't work and the boiler threw up fault no 26- Maximun delta temperature. I reset the boiler called the engineer out and he told me I need a powerflush cost 670.00 . Because I had paid 210 for this 3 years ago his manager was willing to take that off the cost. Again this morning fault no 26 came up so again I reset the boiler. I spoke to BG this morning very nice girl contacted her Manager who said that I didn't have a powerflush 3 years ago only a powerclean and that was only guaranteed for 12 months but if I pay for a powerflush now it will be guaranteed for life.Why wasn't this done properly on installation. Anyway if the problem says Check thermistor on return - system too restrictive can anyone out there confirm that that means I do need a flush or should the Engineer be looking at my boiler first

[slick132]

Hi Unhappy BGC and welcome to CAG.

 

I can't comment on the boiler fault and will leave that to the experts.

 

However, this sounds very dodgy to me. If you had a new boiler installed only 3 years back and a PF was included in the price (£4,500 ), either it wasn't done properly at the time or you're being conned now.

 

I'd be talking to a senior management member at BG. If your receipt shows the PF was done, thatshould be an end to it. If the system really does now need another PF, they should do it without charge.

 

I understand that BG engineers get a bonus pay't for PF work and for replacing boilers. So you have to ask if this encourages work that may not be required.

 

Did you get the name of the person who said you'd only had a Power Clean which is guaranteed for 12 months.

 

See what others say - be patient and further advice should follow.

[juliusceasor]

Am I being conned. I had a BG condenser boiler fitted 3 years ago at a cost of 4500.00. This included 210.00 for a powerflush (as stated on the quote)

 

What make and model boiler do you have, you'll need to look at the data plate if it is a rebadged unit for BG. I do think 95% of all quotes for new boilers from BG are £4500 certainly that's my experience.

 

If it said Powerflush and inhibitor was added to the system and the job was done correctly then you shouldn't have corrosion or problems in the heating system. If your quote is for a Powerflush then BG should be liable for the system, particularly as it is under their care and only their engineers are working on it. Therefor eI would say if the problems with your system are related to cleanliness of your system then it is BG responsibility and it is not necessary for you to then pay for another powerflush.

I posted earlier a link to a test kit you can use to have your system water analysed.

 

It could be that your pump or a valve is not operating correctly (although the pump is new you said) and your boiler is going to overheat due to poor circulation or even a faulty overheat/temperature stat. Have you bled the radiators in the kitchen and checked the valves are open?

Let me know the boiler details and I or someone else here will try and help further.

[unhappybgcus]

The boiler is BG330 . On installation the original paperwork states that Salamander Cleanser and Salamander inhibitor was used to flush the system. We had a new pump fitted a few weeks ago. My husband tried to open the kitchen valves yesterday but it seemed the last engineer tightened them so tight that he had problems so is going to try again tonight. The system came on this morning for about one hour but didn't heat anything and then the same fault came on the boiler so I reset it and then we got heat but not to the rads in the kitchen. Husband is asking for advice today from some engineers he works with

[juliusceasor]

That is similar to the glowworm hxi model range, an open vented boiler. The fault is not a sensor reading it is because the heating system isn't circulating. If this happened after the pump was replaced then it could be airlocked which would also explain the kitchen radiators not working.

On the front of the pump is a screw use a flat screwdriver (with a towel) you can loosen this and bleed it then re tighten. Check all the radiators for air, check the pump shutoff valves are fully open (either side of the pump) bleed the airvent at the cylinder if there is one and manually switch the diverter valve over and back.

 

If it is airlocked hopefully that will shift it, also try varying the pump speed but put it back to where it was afterwards.

 

It does sound like a blockage or airlock in the heating system. I doubt you need a powerflush but you can alawys test the water if all the above fails.

 

Sorry I have to run hence the rushed reply.

Edited February 18, 2009 by juliusceasor

[cb9000]

I came across this thread whilst doing a general search and wondered if someone can give me a little advice.

 

I have two radiators that needed frequent bleeding and so I called BG out under my Homecare agreement. The engineer who came advised me that I need a powerflush as the water is dirty and so there is hydrogen building up in those two radiators.

 

In the short term, I am quite happy to bleed the radiators every now and then whilst I save up to have the powerflush done.

 

Long term though, the thought has occurred to me, that as my central heating system is quite old (its an ex-council house so not sure when the radiators etc were installed) would I be better saving for a bit longer and having all my radiators changed rather than a powerflush?

 

Would this be a viable solution? Or will the system need powerflushing even if we changed all the radiators?

Also, if I was to get a local firm to do the work rather than BG, does anyone know if this would invalidate my BG Homecare agreement?

[slick132]

Hi CB9000 and welcome to CAG.

 

I'm sure one of our resident experts will stop by and advise soon.

 

In the meantime, what boiler do you have and how old is it.

 

Are the pipes which come up from the floor to the rads 13mm (1/2 inch), or are they smaller such as 6mm or 8mm.

[juliusceasor]

 

Long term though, the thought has occurred to me, that as my central heating system is quite old (its an ex-council house so not sure when the radiators etc were installed) would I be better saving for a bit longer and having all my radiators changed rather than a powerflush?

 

Firstly find out what is going on in your system and why, this link may help explain Radiator Failure as it may be your heating system installation that is causing the problems which would need to be rectified to prevent re occurrence.

 

Lets say you allowed £120 per rad on average to replace that will give you a cost to compare.

 

Would this be a viable solution? Or will the system need powerflushing even if we changed all the radiators?

Also, if I was to get a local firm to do the work rather than BG, does anyone know if this would invalidate my BG Homecare agreement?

 

I am not sure I seem to recall BG have some exclusions where they state that no other person can work on your system when under their cover.

The thing to do is check first. You can cancel the agreement and then have a firm in to do whatever work is necessary, they warrant their work and then take out a new homecare agreement..

 

I would suggest getting several quotes and ask what guarantees they would offer depending on the work they did. Radiators tend to have 10 year guarantees, but these are invalidated if there is corrosion present. This is the same with boiler guarantees..

 

You need to look at your heating system in the round not just at the problem area displayed.

[cb9000]

Thanks juliusceasor, I will look into getting some local engineers to have a look at the system to make sure that there isn't a more serious underlying problem which needs to be corrected.

 

In response to slick132, the boiler is made by Biasi (i'm sure on exact details as working away at the moment) - on the BG forms they always write Riva compact if that's any help. I think the pipes leading to radiators are 1/2 inch, I don't think they are as small as 6mm or 8mm anyway.

[Stanleyb41]

Hi all

 

I am another who has found this through some googling!

 

I have kettling in my system. I had it a couple of years back and I got a frined (BG Eng) to come round and do a full flush for me. He said that it should be good enough and that a powerflush shouldnt be necessary due to the fact my house is only (now) 5 yrs old.

 

Before I bought the house a new rad had been installed as part of a conservatory build, which my mate suggested had too smal a connecting pipe used and therefore it restricted the flow. It is also the lowest rad in the house and when he cleaned the system it actually took a good hour or so of trying to force the water into said rad. When the water did finally get into it loads of black sludge came out, as did every other rad to be honest.

 

I cant quite remember if it cleared the kettling, but in the last few months it has come back worse than ever.

 

I called out BG the other week as I have HC plan with them, and the enginerr stated a flush would sort it out, and even after I told him a frined of mine is a BG eng and had flshed it thru a few years back he still claied its the water quality doing it.

 

He opened the rad to add some inhibitor into it, and in fairness the water was considerably dirty again, though upstairs rads are fine.

 

The inhibitor has had no effect whatsoever.

 

I am trying to contact my mate again but he is really busy so Im just waiting for him to get back in touch. So, all Im doing is asking for some opinions on my best course of action. I see it as:

 

1 - Get BG to do it

2 - Get another company to do it

3 - Get my mate to do it again, but maybe hire a powerflusher myself

 

Unless someone has another way?

 

Thanks in anticipation

Stan

[juliusceasor]

Kettling is localised boiling of the water in the heat exchanger caused by circulation failure/ restriction of flow or in hard water areas calcification of the heat exchanger.

Black sludge is magnetite and (correct caused by) corrosion of the heating system namely the metal from the radiators. It tends to settle in the lowest radiator predominantly as it is is heavy and settles out at the lowest point, and the slowest circulation. If you have micro bore pipes it will also restrict flow and cause the sludge problems and blocking of the pipes due to reduced circulation.

 

I would suggest a powerflush, individually flush each radiator check for pinhole leaks and reflush the whole system. Fit a magnetic particle filter and a particulate filter and a good inhibitor. Find someone who will warrant their work. Get several quotes.

[bindo88]

boilersystemhelp i think you will need the power flush plus your valves to to your new rads may be blocked as well

[bindo88]

boilersystemhelp

 

I think that you would need the power flush and the valves may be blocked, as well as the system has not been used in a long time so the sludge will have built up and become more harder to shift which would block the valves

Edited February 23, 2009 by bindo88

[unhappybgcus]

Just an update about my problems with British Gas and Powerflush. A nice BG manager came to my house with an engineer and did a deal with me. He arranged a Powerflush and said if it worked he would only charge me 250. (as against 500 originally quoted). Powerflush was carried out last week . The guy doing it said he was only booked in for 4 hours as it was a no charge. After a couple of hours he was going to give up but after a call to his Manager he was told to " stay a bit longer". This he did and after about 5 hours he got my system working . Still dont know if it was sludge in the system he kept showing me little bits of metal filings - anyway he also fitted a magnetron thingy to my boiler (normal cost 350 as per him) free of charge. Am still awaiting bill for 250.00 but my house is soooooooooo hot now so I am quite happy.

[slick132]

Hi Unhappy - I assume now HAPPYBGcus,

 

Thanks for coming back with the update.

 

Stay toasty !!

[bab]

Hi

I have a baxi main he30

i have had bg out 14 months after boiler was fitted and condensing unit was replaced . after 6 months had to have another condensing unit fitted

now i have lost boiler presser and have been told that its the condenser unit and i will probably need a power flush and been told it will cost around £680 and this might stop this fault

what do you think

[slick132]

Hi Bab and welcome to CAG.

 

One of the plumbing experts will be along to answer your query soon.

 

In the meantime, can you please confirm:-

 

1. Did BG fit the boiler.

 

2. Was your system power-flushed before the new boiler was connected.