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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Sons Phone Stolen! £500 Worth Of Calls To Romania On A £15 Per Month Contract!!!


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:-x My sons phone was stolen/lost, he doesnt know which. Unfortunately it picked up by someone who preceded to call somewhere in Romania rattling up a £500 bill. T Mobile refuse to refund any of the charges despite it being a £15 per month contract.

Do we have any recourse?

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I should add that in fact we have crime number for this offence, so it should be considered stolen rather than lost.

Therefore how can T Mobile get away with m aking a profit on a crime, any input would be appreciated

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The theft was reported after the calls were made ALF, do you think that a £15 permonth contract should be able to rattle a bill of £500 and furthermore why should T Mobile retain the profit from a crime.

I want to know whether this is legal

Thanks

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Presumably there was no credit limit block on the account?

 

eg, I have a £15 per month contract and a credit limit of £75 (I think - it was £50).

 

I think you may have to push to negotiate with TMob and maybe ask why they allowed the phone to be used to run up that kind of a bill suddenly to overseas calls.

 

Failing that, will your home insurance cover it at all?

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Not going to be what you want to hear but you are liable for the call charges, your contract makes this quite clear.

 

You may be able to negotiate a waiver of these charges or a discount from T-Mobile but that will depend on their goodwill.

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A discount of around 20% to 30% is about all you can expect. T-Mobile are not 'profiting' from crime, as the discount will reflect this - the balance goes to the foreign network who delivered the call, and should get paid for their services.

 

Whether lost or stolen, it doesn;t really matter - he should either protect his interests by using the provided security measures (PIN protection) or in the absence of this, an insurance policy. It is a hard lesson to learn, but a valuable one.

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Presumably there was no credit limit block on the account?

 

eg, I have a £15 per month contract and a credit limit of £75 (I think - it was £50).

 

I think you may have to push to negotiate with TMob and maybe ask why they allowed the phone to be used to run up that kind of a bill suddenly to overseas calls.

 

Failing that, will your home insurance cover it at all?

 

Just to add, the credit limit is for T-Mobile's benefit, not the customers, and after a few months of being a good payer, the limit will be raised or even removed.

 

You are liable for all calls before you report it to T-Mobile.

 

Keep civil and polite... any discount is going to be down to T-Mobiles goodwill.

 

Remember that this needs to be paid quickly else it will be a negative mark on the credit file of whoever agreed to the contract.

If in doubt, contact a qualified insured legal professional (or my wife... she knows EVERYTHING)

 

Or send a cheque or postal order payable to Reclaim the Right Ltd.

to

923 Finchley Road London NW11 7PE

 

 

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Hi All,

Thanks very much for everyone's input. In answer to the questions raised:

  • The bill has already been paid by direct debit
  • It was a Sim only contract
  • It did have a credit block but as my son has had the contract for a while and been a good payer the limit was in excess of what calls were made
  • T Mobile have already refused to offer any discount or should I say refund, probably because its already been paid

Any further suggestions welcome

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Your options are say nothing and accept T-Mobile's position or you can escalate your complaint within T-Moblile to the highest level possible using their code of practice to guide you, this should be on their website. If you reach deadlock with them then you can seek independent arbitration of your dispute or you can go through the courts.

 

I don't think that you would stand much change of winning either via arbitration or the courts though.

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Your options are say nothing and accept T-Mobile's position or you can escalate your complaint within T-Moblile to the highest level possible using their code of practice to guide you, this should be on their website. If you reach deadlock with them then you can seek independent arbitration of your dispute or you can go through the courts.

 

I don't think that you would stand much change of winning either via arbitration or the courts though.

A point not made here though is that arbitration will cost T-Mobile money. Following their "Code of Practice" and stating that the complaint will go to arbitration may just be the kick up the bum that they need.

 

T Mobile can not justify making any profit whatsoever from this even if it is £20, and that will be the basis of my complaint.

Thanks for you comments

I'm with you that they should not profit. This is why they normally give a little discount in the region that Buzby posted.

 

Just to be a little annoying and pedantic (what moi?:razz:) can I ask is it the sim only 30 day rolling contract or the 12 month one? If it's the 30 day, get your son to get his PAC aswell, The department that deals with that sort of thing commonly have the ability to give discounts etc. (although I feel your son will probably move network anyway given this bill!)

If in doubt, contact a qualified insured legal professional (or my wife... she knows EVERYTHING)

 

Or send a cheque or postal order payable to Reclaim the Right Ltd.

to

923 Finchley Road London NW11 7PE

 

 

Click here if you fancy an email address that shows you mean business! (only £6 and that will really help CAG)

 

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A point not made here though is that arbitration will cost T-Mobile money. Following their "Code of Practice" and stating that the complaint will go to arbitration may just be the kick up the bum that they need.

 

 

I'm with you that they should not profit. This is why they normally give a little discount in the region that Buzby posted.

 

Just to be a little annoying and pedantic (what moi?:razz:) can I ask is it the sim only 30 day rolling contract or the 12 month one? If it's the 30 day, get your son to get his PAC aswell, The department that deals with that sort of thing commonly have the ability to give discounts etc. (although I feel your son will probably move network anyway given this bill!)

 

Hi loc,

Its a 12 month contract,

OUR PROBLEM IS THAT ITS A LOT MORE DIFFICULT TO NEGOTIATE WITH PEOPLE WHEN THE INVOICE IS PAID:mad:

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Yes, I agree BUT at least no-ones credit file is going to get fried!

 

Keep at them, google "t-mobile code of practice" and follow the complaints procedure highlighted there, and make it clear what you would accept as an outcome.

If in doubt, contact a qualified insured legal professional (or my wife... she knows EVERYTHING)

 

Or send a cheque or postal order payable to Reclaim the Right Ltd.

to

923 Finchley Road London NW11 7PE

 

 

Click here if you fancy an email address that shows you mean business! (only £6 and that will really help CAG)

 

If you can't donate, please use the Internet Search boxes on the CAG pages - these will generate a small but regular income for the site

 

Please also consider using the

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hi exasperated,

not much to add but here's some background on how the networks protect themselves.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-3042733.html

 

I find the whole issue of networks continually using these situations to profit from morally indefensible and legally questionable.

 

Very often the loss they claim the customer is liable for only exists on paper.

 

Just out of interest what were the Romanian phone numbers. If they are used to bill for international premium rate services for example then it is very likely T-mobile has lost no money.

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hi exasperated,

not much to add but here's some background on how the networks protect themselves.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-3042733.html

 

I find the whole issue of networks continually using these situations to profit from morally indefensible and legally questionable.

 

Very often the loss they claim the customer is liable for only exists on paper.

 

Just out of interest what were the Romanian phone numbers. If they are used to bill for international premium rate services for example then it is very likely T-mobile has lost no money.

 

Hi GW,

We dont know what the numbers were, however despite the facts that certain procedures were not followed I still maintain and agree with you that it is indefensible that T Mobile retain any profit from what clearly is a crime.

On behalf of my son I am going to take this up fully and will cause as much inconvenience to T Mobile until they concede or we reach a dead end.

Thanks

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I think the first thing I would do is insist T-mobile supply a fully itemised bill of these calls. dates/durations/costs.

 

It would be interesting to see if the calls were to ordinary Romanian domestic numbers or a premium rate service that was using 'Romanian' numbers to bill to.

 

In other words were the calls being made to a company that T-mobile had a revenue share billing agreement?

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it would be almost impossible to find the companies in the revenue chain if the numbers were international premium billing numbers.

 

this is how some of the numbers start(40 is the Romanian dialling code)

 

 

Romania 3 40.338 VOICE/ADULT

Romania 375 40.3375 VOICE/ADULT

Romania 385 40.3385 VOICE/ADULT

Romania 4 40.312 VOICE/ADULT

 

It's equally likely the numbers on your bill will be numerous unrelated domestic if the thief/thieves were just using it to phone home but it would be interesting to see if the call patterns indicated (AIT) Artificially Inflated Traffic or similar.

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