Habitual Residence Hold Up

[andrew0911]

I returned to England on the 6th May 2010, but did not go to jobcentre until the 10th. I was given a number to call and give all my information in, a month later, they sent me a letter saying ‘i had not paid enough national tax contributions’ to get JSA, of course not, i had been in America for three years. I didn’t know what to do so i ‘phoned the Community Action Line, they called the office dealing with my claim, they told the lady from CAL that i had failed my ‘habitual residency test’. My wife is still in the USA, i plan to bring her over as soon as i’m settled. I called the office yesterday and they said my review(received by them on the 19th June) hadn’t been looked at and it may take a few weeks. By then, my appeal time will have exceeded the stipulated 1 month and i will be back to square one. Still have not had any money off them. They just seem to be as uncompromising as possible, if i was black, illegally here and had committed a crime in my own country, they would be waiting for me with money, deeds to a new home and clothing allowance. Is this the way British people (born and bred here) are to be treated? What should i do, been supported by family since i came, but with no prospect of any job or financial assistance, they will tire, then what ?? Might be easier to go to prison and then, when i came out, i would be a resident! Is there some way of dealing with all this red tape and Jobcentre 'staff' indiference that anyone knows ?

[honeybee13]

Hello and thank you for joining the forum. Am I right in thinking that you're not British? Have you been resident in the past as you seem to be implying in your first sentence please?

 

HB

[ErikaPNP]

If you committed a crime in your own country and were illegally here, you would still not satisfy the right to reside and habitual residence tests for benefit purposes, and the home office would be seeking deportation. This would be the case regardless of whether you are black or white, or pink with yellow dots.

 

This is the way that any person is treated when when they arrive in the UK and wish to claim income based benefits within the first two years of arrival. A british national only has to satisfy the habitual residence test, but a foriegn national has to satisfy this in addition to the right to reside test.

Habitual residence and right to reside

 

Your one month time limit to appeal will not expire as yet as you have submitted a request for reconsideration. Once the reconsideration decision is reached, your month starts again from the date of that decision.

[andrew0911]

Hello and thank you for joining the forum. Am I right in thinking that you're not British? Have you been resident in the past as you seem to be implying in your first sentence please?

 

HB

 

 

Dear Honeybee, yes i am Britsh, i was born here. Have left for holidays only. I left here in March 2007, other than that, i have always resided in the Manchester area.

[andrew0911]

If you committed a crime in your own country and were illegally here, you would still not satisfy the right to reside and habitual residence tests for benefit purposes, and the home office would be seeking deportation. This would be the case regardless of whether you are black or white, or pink with yellow dots.

 

 

 

Dear Erika, thank you for your input, but it was reported recently that a Pakistani woman had, in Pakistan, set fire to her husband and bured him to death, whilst awaiting trial, she fled here and claimed asylum. Was she deported ? No, depite pleas from the Pakistani Government, she was granted it here AND was given everything she asked for.

[ErikaPNP]

For asylum seekers the law is different; a person seeking asylum cannot be deported until their application is decided. Once asylum is granted they cannot be deported.

 

Any person in your position regardless of whether they were a British national re-entering the UK or a foriegn national and entering the UK for the first time must satisfy the relevant tests before they can be awarded income related benefits.

 

As a UK national, you already satisfy the right to reside however the habitual residence test still has to be satisfied.

 

Relevant case law which could help you in your appeal:

 

House of Lords, Nessa v CAO (1999) IWLR 1937 HL

 

CIS/1304/1997

 

CJSA/5394/1998

 

CIS/4389/99

 

CIS/4474/03

 

 

[andrew0911]

Dear Erika, thank you for the items shown

[Aviva]

Wow, wish I could have a 3 year holiday!

 

Have they told you on what grounds you have failed the habitual residency test?

[andrew0911]

It wasn't actually a holiday lol. No, they haven't actually told me, first it was because i hadn't paid enough contributions and then they changed it to the habitual residency. Had a lot of guessing and opinions from the people at the Jobcentre, but nothing concrete as to why. They dont, it seems, even have the courtesy to explain these things.

[andrew0911]

I have just found out that if you are deported from the USA, you are exempt IMMEDIATELY from the HRT. Take note of this all expats who are thinking to return here !

[antone]

It wasn't actually a holiday lol. No, they haven't actually told me, first it was because i hadn't paid enough contributions and then they changed it to the habitual residency. Had a lot of guessing and opinions from the people at the Jobcentre, but nothing concrete as to why. They dont, it seems, even have the courtesy to explain these things.

 

The rules for contributary benefits regarding habitual residency are different from those for income-based benefits. A person may qualify for JSA© even if they are not considered to be habitually resident or have the right to reside, since eligibility is based on NI contributions paid.

 

So when you applied, you were first considered for JSA© but, since you hadn't been in the UK for the tax years considered, you haven't paid enough. So the next stage is to consider your eligibility for JSA(IB), and that's when habitual residency becomes an issue.

 

The term "Right to Reside" does have a specific mean (roughly, does not need the permission of an immigration officer to enter the UK) but "habitually resident" is not defined in law. The guide Erika posted should help with your appeal.

 

And I know it's not central to your point, but let's not spread the dangerous and divisive myth that illegal immigrants receive generous state benefits.

[andrew0911]

Thank you Antone, They sent me a letter on 9/6/2010, informing me of that decision but as to the REAL reason, they did not. It was only due to the fact that i contacted the Community Legal Aid that i found this out. I have received that ONE letter only. There has been no other. On the 19th of June 2010, i, along with a worker at my local Jobcentre filled in a form requesting it to be reviewed. On Friday it still had not been looked at, so my appeal, which a written statement with your intention, needs to be in within a month of the first, and only letter, will be on its way tomorrow. Do they just have one person dealing with claims who works part time i wonder.

[antone]

Thank you Antone, They sent me a letter on 9/6/2010, informing me of that decision but as to the REAL reason, they did not. It was only due to the fact that i contacted the Community Legal Aid that i found this out. I have received that ONE letter only. There has been no other. On the 19th of June 2010, i, along with a worker at my local Jobcentre filled in a form requesting it to be reviewed. On Friday it still had not been looked at, so my appeal, which a written statement with your intention, needs to be in within a month of the first, and only letter, will be on its way tomorrow. Do they just have one person dealing with claims who works part time i wonder.

 

Yeah, there are certainly communication problems with JCP. I worked there until quite recently, at a BDC. It's unfortunate, though not usually the fault of the processing staff. Admittedly, we weren't queuing up to call people to give them bad news and be subjected to a volley of verbal abuse, but we'd do it if we actually knew what was happening.

 

But in response to your last point, and I do realise you were kinda joking, there are usually a lot of people dealing with claims. It's just that there are a whole lot more claims coming in than most people would imagine. The hiring freeze and shedding of fixed-term contract staff suggests to me that things won't improve in the foreseeable future.

[andrew0911]

Dear Antone, I agree with you about communication problems, but VERY oddly, they ALWAYS appear to be in the Jobcentres benefit. If you don't receive a letter off them, you are lying ... If you say you sent a letter to them and they 'hadn't got it', you, again are lying.

The best thing to do, in this situation i think, is to get in touch with your MP, Solicitors (who do the free half hour advice) and then they would take on the case. ALL the names of these indequately trained 'officials', dates and correspondence. I am sure that the people who had 'no time' or were afraid of the 'verbal abuse' would suddenly have a lot of time, would have no qualms about verbal abuse and do the job they are paid to do. They appear to me to be little anonymous persons who take delight in others misfortune.

BTW, the telephone number for the Community Legal Advice is :-0845 456 5989 and they CAN and DO record every single conversation they have with the Benefits Office.

As to there being a lot of claims for these poor personell to cope with, i suggest they get there act together or take a few people off benefits, train them and then swap their positions. People who have been victims of the abysmal sevice and lack of understanding are more inclined to investigate things instead of just shunting them about. All i seem to hear is that the BA is having to deal with a lot of 'claims at this time', but they give out money hand over fist to undeserving claimants. What a great system they have here !

[privatehudson]

I work on a line that takes new claims to benefit but I sit next to a team that takes incoming calls from people enquiring about their JSA claims. I can assure you that there is no myth about 'verbal abuse'. It is very real since I hear each member of that team dealing with that kind of call on a daily basis when they have to inform someone of something they don't want to hear, or merely reflect the rules put in place by someone at a much higher level. But yes, they are paid to take those calls, but are not paid to be shouted at, sworn at or talked over, any more than your bus driver or till operator at Tescos is.

 

Furthermore many of the people in our centre have been unemployed, I for example have been twice in my life. I'm fortunate in the sense that my last period was over 5 years ago but I'd say at least a third of the people in my centre were unemployed immediately before starting work here. You might like to think we're all petty sadists with no connection to the real world but it no more reflects reality than to suggest that all benefit claimants must automatically be scroungers, or all foreign nationals are here to milk the system.

[antone]

Dear Antone, I agree with you about communication problems, but VERY oddly, they ALWAYS appear to be in the Jobcentres benefit. If you don't receive a letter off them, you are lying ... If you say you sent a letter to them and they 'hadn't got it', you, again are lying.

The best thing to do, in this situation i think, is to get in touch with your MP, Solicitors (who do the free half hour advice) and then they would take on the case. ALL the names of these indequately trained 'officials', dates and correspondence. I am sure that the people who had 'no time' or were afraid of the 'verbal abuse' would suddenly have a lot of time, would have no qualms about verbal abuse and do the job they are paid to do. They appear to me to be little anonymous persons who take delight in others misfortune.

BTW, the telephone number for the Community Legal Advice is :-0845 456 5989 and they CAN and DO record every single conversation they have with the Benefits Office.

As to there being a lot of claims for these poor personell to cope with, i suggest they get there act together or take a few people off benefits, train them and then swap their positions. People who have been victims of the abysmal sevice and lack of understanding are more inclined to investigate things instead of just shunting them about. All i seem to hear is that the BA is having to deal with a lot of 'claims at this time', but they give out money hand over fist to undeserving claimants. What a great system they have here !

 

As Privatehudson said, the "verbal abuse" doesn't need scare quotes. It's real, and when you sling it at AOs in the DWP, you're slinging it at people who quite possibly get less in salary than many folks receive on benefits. Crucially, they can't change the law. But you wouldn't get on a bus and scream at the driver because he can't change the fares - at least, I hope you wouldn't - but for some reason, it's acceptable to yell at poorly paid DWP staff.

 

When I worked for the DWP, I did indeed "investigate things", although at times I don't know why I bothered. But I understood that the benefits system is confusing, even Byzantine, and I acted accordingly to do my best to help people through the maze.

 

I tried not to take the suggestion that I was an "little anonymous person who take delight in others misfortune" personally. That's the kind of **** that I used to hear. Day in, day out. Who else is paid to deal with this crap? But there's no way I can't take it personally. Sorry.

 

I worked for the DWP, recently. I have knowledge and experience that could help you. But if this is truly the way that you regard me and my former colleagues, please feel free to ask someone else about your benefit problems.

[andrew0911]

Dear Antone, I was not speaking of all of the staff. At my local Jobcentre they have been good. As in all cases there are good and bad people in ALL jobs, surely you are not saying they are all good? I have never once said they are all bad.

Most of my life, i have been in fast food. Try getting upset when, NOT over the phone, but to your face you get abuse when the pubs/clubs are let out. If it bothered me so much, i would not do it .... You had that choice too, so it cannot have been that big an issue. I'm sure that somebody on benefits would be overjoyed to talk condesendingly to some irate person who has been shunted about from one indifferent "advisor" to another one who seems equally indifferent AND to get paid for it WOW, its a sadomasochictics dream job.

I have not, and don't, shout or abuse people (verbally or physically), but the red tape and beurocracy that exists is unbelievable. Yes, maybe you know the answers, but i dont. It seems incomprehensible to me that a 'traveller' can claim money when he is of no fixed abode, whereas i HAVE to live somewhere to get anything if/when i do.

Wether people are poorly paid or not is irrelevant. They should do the job they are paid to do or go. There are men and women serving in the army who pay for a mistake with their life, they know this, yet still do it even though they are underpaid and ill equipped and you cry about 'verbal abuse' over a telehone ???????

[privatehudson]

Dear Antone, I was not speaking of all of the staff. At my local Jobcentre they have been good. As in all cases there are good and bad people in ALL jobs, surely you are not saying they are all good? I have never once said they are all bad.

 

You'll always find some problem people in any organisation that employs so many staff. However if a manager caught a staff member speaking in a derogatory tone to customers they have and will be pulled on it - I've seen it happen.

 

Most of my life, i have been in fast food. Try getting upset when, NOT over the phone, but to your face you get abuse when the pubs/clubs are let out. If it bothered me so much, i would not do it .... You had that choice too, so it cannot have been that big an issue. I'm sure that somebody on benefits would be overjoyed to talk condesendingly to some irate person who has been shunted about from one indifferent "advisor" to another one who seems equally indifferent AND to get paid for it WOW, its a sadomasochictics dream job.

 

It is a big issue in some cases yes, but we have a choice as advisers, we can warn the person to stop talking in that fashion, if they continue we will put the phone down on them. Any employer worth their salt will not allow their staff to be either verbally or physically abused, they have a duty to make reasonable attempts to prevent it. Unlike many private organisations however most government departments will never completely refuse to deal with abusive customers.

 

I have not, and don't, shout or abuse people (verbally or physically), but the red tape and beurocracy that exists is unbelievable. Yes, maybe you know the answers, but i dont. It seems incomprehensible to me that a 'traveller' can claim money when he is of no fixed abode, whereas i HAVE to live somewhere to get anything if/when i do.

 

They might get benefits if they meet the other requirements, they probably won't get housing costs though.

 

Wether people are poorly paid or not is irrelevant. They should do the job they are paid to do or go. There are men and women serving in the army who pay for a mistake with their life, they know this, yet still do it even though they are underpaid and ill equipped and you cry about 'verbal abuse' over a telehone ???????

 

The job that they're paid to do does not and should not involve any form of abuse. No customer of any organisation should have the right to treat the staff member however they feel like. I'm really suprised that you have worked in customer service and yet are so flippant about the issue.

 

Soldiers shouldn't have to put up with being abused during parades or guard duty either. The possibility of being sent into action however is part of their job role and anyone who signs up for military service knows beforehand that its a possibility.

 

Soldiers should not be under equipped, employees should not be verbally abused. There's no reason why we should put up with either as a society.

[andrew0911]

Dear privatehudson, I am not trying to be 'flippant' or hostile, but you remarks are that of a Politician. 'It shouldn't be, yet it is' appears to be all you are saying here.

The travellers MAY not get housing benefit, but have been given DVD's by the Department of Work and Pensions to enable them to claim more benefits. Is that not descrimination? Give it to all AND have it translated into the 12 other languages that accompany each letter. Talk about a waste of taxpayers money !!!!!

Put the 'phone down if it upsets you or anyone else. I am in favour of that. Yesterday i called Bolton from my home, according to Paul that i was conversing with, there was NOTHING about me on the computer. I gave him the facts yet again, he said he would, as soon as we put the 'phones down, send an email to my local Jobcentre. I went down there and the Head Floorwalker (there are 5 plus 3 security guards). After about an hour of waiting, he said to call Bolton again to find out the delay. I spoke to Ashley this time, there was NO Paul who worked there, and NO record of me calling earlier that morning. What there was though, were two letter, one stating i was a Habitual Resident, the other stating i was, both dated the same day and signed by the same person. The date was the 25th June 2010, i had not had any. Lies upon lies upon inneficieny. I didn't raise my voice except in laughter. When someone is faced with this ineptitude and their family are hungry, is it a wonder there is the awful 'verbal abuse' ? So you see, putting the 'phone down is saving you from such punishment. Think that needs to be passed by The House of Lords, mess the person about for a few months, lie to them, be condescending and utterly useless, say letters have been sent out, but don't send them, say we never got your letter/phone call and then put the phone down. Problem solved !

[privatehudson]

Dear privatehudson, I am not trying to be 'flippant' or hostile, but you remarks are that of a Politician. 'It shouldn't be, yet it is' appears to be all you are saying here.

Not at all, apart from that not being my point I could think of a few constructive ways in which you could continue such as making a formal complaint about the treatment and/or an appeal against the decision. Both of which will get you further than complaining about the treatment on an online forum and might get some action taken against the person or persons who you feel treated you badly. Might I suggest you resist the urge to refer to foreign nationals or travellers in either though.

As for being flippant every time you have discussed verbal abuse you give the distinct impression that you think it is irrelevant and the staff are just blowing it out of proportion. I find that a strange stance for someone who has been on the receiving end of workplace abuse in the past since you should know what its like. We don't all have to treat it as a hazard of work.

If my reply doesn’t go much further than that then I’m afraid its because I know very little about HRTs or benefit processing in general, so I’m not likely to go into depth about something I’m neither trained in or familiar with.

The travellers MAY not get housing benefit, but have been given DVD's by the Department of Work and Pensions to enable them to claim more benefits. Is that not descrimination? Give it to all AND have it translated into the 12 other languages that accompany each letter. Talk about a waste of taxpayers money !!!!!

Perhaps they have, since I’ve not knowingly dealt with a single one in 18 months of taking claims I don’t know what they do or don’t get and there's certainly no part of my role that would single them out anyway. The vast majority of people who are NFA aren’t travelllers in the common sense of the term (i.e. another term for gypsy which appears to be the context you are using it in), they’re people who are kipping on a friend’s sofa or moving from one place to another without actually having to sleep on the streets.

As to if its discrimination not really, the government tries various schemes to try and reach out to people who might be missed by traditional methods. Its no more discrimination than advertising pension credit to people who may be unfamiliar with state support but in need of it.

Co-oncidentally on the issue of missed letters if they’re anything like callbacks the fact that you did not receive them is not necessarily an indication of whether they were sent out or not.

[Storminorman]

Hi Andrew I have sent you a friend request as I have some info for you from someone who has been in the same position.

 

I think you should go down the line of indiscriminate discrimination, and yes on most of the points you are making you are correct, however the problem is most comments you will get from within certain departments is that you are being politically incorrect. Which to be honest is a load of old tot.

[andrew0911]

Dear privatehudson, I have made my appeal. It was sent in yesterday.

I am not too concerned about my treatment now, it is the laziness, ineptitude and total lack of regard i have, and i am sure that many others have experienced by the DWP.

Judging by your replies i.e. in reference to the travellers, ' i have never knowingly dealt with one in 18 months of taking claims' is one of the standard replies that you recieve off the people who are there, laughingly, to help you, albeit used in another context, the claim you are making or with their 'help' , trying vainly.

The 'verbal abuse', we have discussed at length, in a nutshell, you just put the 'phone down, end of story. Why does it play such an important part of your life? You have deart with it for 18 months, mine was 20+ years. Get over it, pack your 'job' in or get a law passed that will decree ANY wording that upsets the unceaselessly working staff of either the Jobcentres or the DWP will result in a minimum of 100 years hard labour or, if it is traumatising to you so you are in need of paid time off and therapy, the death penalty. Another problem solved

As to the travellers, gypsy or not, it was in the newspapers and on the television about the fact that they were getting DVD's. Wether you have dealt with a claim is irrelevant.

I have stated in my previously written post that if i haven't received the letter the DWP sent, or they didn't receve mine, then i MUST by lying. The angelic and ever helpful anonymous person you speak to (refer to my last posting of Paul and Ashley), would not even dream of lying !

I spoke about the foreign nationals to emphasise a point, i wasn't making a derogatory comment.

I also know very little about HT or processing, in fact i seem to be learning less almost daily as form 1mb.789 (just an example) hadn't been filled in or my wifes National Insurance number wasn't recognised, which is not suprising as she visited England for 19 days in 2002, didn't give her NI number to anyone and the American number contains 10 digits and no numbers ( this, believe it or not, is a fact) the people at the DWP certainly investigate thoroughly !!

[antone]

Dear Antone, I was not speaking of all of the staff. At my local Jobcentre they have been good. As in all cases there are good and bad people in ALL jobs, surely you are not saying they are all good? I have never once said they are all bad.

Most of my life, i have been in fast food. Try getting upset when, NOT over the phone, but to your face you get abuse when the pubs/clubs are let out. If it bothered me so much, i would not do it .... You had that choice too, so it cannot have been that big an issue. I'm sure that somebody on benefits would be overjoyed to talk condesendingly to some irate person who has been shunted about from one indifferent "advisor" to another one who seems equally indifferent AND to get paid for it WOW, its a sadomasochictics dream job.

I have not, and don't, shout or abuse people (verbally or physically), but the red tape and beurocracy that exists is unbelievable. Yes, maybe you know the answers, but i dont. It seems incomprehensible to me that a 'traveller' can claim money when he is of no fixed abode, whereas i HAVE to live somewhere to get anything if/when i do.

Wether people are poorly paid or not is irrelevant. They should do the job they are paid to do or go. There are men and women serving in the army who pay for a mistake with their life, they know this, yet still do it even though they are underpaid and ill equipped and you cry about 'verbal abuse' over a telehone ???????

 

I don't have a lot to add to what Privatehudson has said. No-one at the DWP is paid to take verbal abuse, and quite frankly, neither is anyone in the fast food business. Some of us have supportive employers. I worked in bars for a few years, and no manager I ever had would expect me to put up with being constantly abused.

 

You're right, of course - some DWP staff are bad. There's thousands of DWP staff, so that's just inevitable. And some benefit claimants are offensive too, but most are polite and do their best to deal with a bad situation. The red tape is indeed ridiculous, but the people who have the power to change that are not the ones who answer the phones and process benefits.

 

Anyhow, I withdraw my earlier complaint: if I can help you with your benefit claim, I will.

[antone]

I also know very little about HT or processing, in fact i seem to be learning less almost daily as form 1mb.789 (just an example) hadn't been filled in or my wifes National Insurance number wasn't recognised, which is not suprising as she visited England for 19 days in 2002, didn't give her NI number to anyone and the American number contains 10 digits and no numbers ( this, believe it or not, is a fact) the people at the DWP certainly investigate thoroughly !!

 

I claimed JSA with an American wife who had no recourse some time ago. I lived in PA for 3 years with her. Heck, I even have a US SSN, but that's of no use in the UK. Your wife doesn't have an NI number, she has a US SSN.

 

I have some experience of this kind of thing, both as a claimant and as a processor. If you would like my help, I'll do what I can.

[andrew0911]

Dear Stominorman, I have absolute no idea where you would find a friend request lol, i may need help with that one ! I've never heard of indiscriminate discrimination, that has never been mentioned.

Edited July 6, 2010 by andrew0911
made a typo :(