Do you have a Northern Rock Together Mortgage? Read This.

[ceiralennon]

If you search on similar law cases on cca unenforceable loans, they seem to say that it would give same protection if unregulated instead of regulated but I'd keep on at it because in a sense that is fraud having cca protection when in fact not, could possibly go for writing off the debt as it is fraud and classed as void!!

[kevin.brook]

I am indeed in the same situation. I took out a loan under the same terms for £30K. I was also taken to newcastle county court under the 1974 act as i had allegedly fell 2 months into arrears. However i had not as they has mis proportioned my payments so it was eventually thrown out. I have in the first instance registered my complaint to the Financial ombudsman. But really think this would be better resolved by joint action.

[Wills999]

Hello everone i am posting here as it seems similar problem i have got with Northern Rock/NRAM, it is complicated so please bare with me and apologies if posted in wrong area but i really need some help advice.

 

On the 19th may 2002 my wife/partner at the time attended a Northern Rock office in the city and after a meeting signed a credit agreement for a Northern Rock together variable mortgage to the value of £93,500.00 which was made up of a £73,980.00 secured mortgage/loan with £19,020.00 initial unsecured amount. For which an account with the reference 5XXXX-XXXXX was created, we purchased our flat for £82,200.00 which meant we used the sum of £8,220 from the £19,020 unsecured loan leaving £11,220 and any solicitors/mortgage arrangement fees came out of that leaving an amount available to draw down at any point we wish, roughly worked out in the region of £10,000.00. In any eventuality that we sold our property we would have a mortgage of £73,980 to redeem and an unsecured loan of £19,020 if we wanted to pay off as well as per details of our credit agreement.

On the 6th January 2003 we have signed a draw down loan agreement to take the remaining £10,000.00p due to wife being ill in hospital with complications with our unborn child, which now meant we have fully taken the available £19,020 unsecured loan and had a mortgage of £73,980.

On 16th July 2004 we sold our flat for £128,000.00p we were given a different account number of 5xxxxx-xxxxx to give to our solicitor to redeem our mortgage, I have realised a total of £84,975.00p was redeemed which is £10,995.00p more than the original mortgage agreement. Due to being young and naïve at the time we did notice any problems, and since selling the flat our old paperwork got destroyed. But it has come to notice when trying to get the remaining paperwork in order that there are huge discrepancies.

 

Starting in January 2013 I noticed the different account numbers for 2 separate mortgage accounts, so I called NRAM and had numerous conversations and I managed to find out the below information:

On 31st January 2003 Northern Rock have Shown Account Number 51350U-10392 with mortgage value of £73,980.00p as being redeemed leaving the unsecured loan of £19,020 still to pay, I did not sell my flat or re-mortgage on this date, and then on same day the 31st January 2003 Northern Rock created an account of 50450J-33398 with a mortgage of £83,381.00p and unsecured loan of £10,000. We did not take out this mortgage and would not need to take out another mortgage, as far as we were aware we only had a mortgage of £73,980.00p and unsecured loan of £19,020.00p which we used to put towards buying our flat and the rest was drawn down to assist with getting started.

Since the years 2002/2003 we have been led to believe that only ever had the one mortgage and unsecured loan, I have since found out differently which means on 16th July 2004 we paid back £10,995.00p more than we should of on the mortgage and should have been taken off the unsecured element of our £19,020.oop loan leaving an amount of £8,025.00p unsecured loan left to pay, instead due to the admin errors from Northern Rock we for the last 10 years we have been paying off two separate loans that we should not of been paying and the majority of that being interest. There shpuld of been a remaining loan of £8,025.00p would have been cleared by now.

 

All these notes are on the account system and also show when northern rock claim the mortgages were redeemed, I have a redemption statement from my solicitor for 16th July 2004 based on the account number given to us by Northern Rock,

 

 

extra information

 

As per my conversation a member of NRAM customer services I was given the following information

My account No:51350u-10392= £73,980 mortgage and £19,020 funds for my flat were released to me on the 28th may 2002 and the agreement started on 1st June 2002, and thier system shows the mortgage redeemed on 31st January 2003 leaving the unsecured loan. I did not sell my flat until July 31st 2004.

 

The other account that I have been paying is 50450J-33398 = Mortgage of £83,381 and unsecured loan of £10,000 with funds released 29th January 2003 and agreement start on 1st February 2003 with the mortgage being redeemed on 31st August 2006.

 

I did sign a draw down agreement on for the rest of my £19,020 unsecured loan 6th June 2003 after at least £8,220 was put towards the £73,980 mortgage to buy my flat for £82,200 plus add on solicitor’s fees, leaving roughly £10,800 or less.

I did raise a complaint to NRAM and my first response was that they will not uphold my complaint due to them believing that the figures were as a result of a re-mortgage, but i did not remortgage and told them that so the compalint was re opened again and i was told today that that it has been closed now as they are standing by their decision.

 

 

I have contacted FOS and have to fill out a form and send it to them tomorrow..... ANY HELP or ADVICE would be great

 

 

thanks

[ceiralennon]

Ok seems a big mess there, but does not surprise me, with nrams excellently admin skills.

Have you sent a SAR request and demand all your information dating back to then. There is good letter template on the site, if you can't I'll post template here, also send them CCA 1974 section 77 request for your documentation relating to the unsecured loan, they have 12 days to send you that info, 40 days for SAR request.

If they don't comply with cca request they are in breach and you do not need to pay that part of it until it is resolved.

[GothBoy]

Jeez Wills999, that's a nightmare. My situation isn't as complicated but I admit that I haven't got A CLUE how NR have worked out financing. I had a maximum drawdown allowance of £28k yet at one point I owed MORE than what I could have borrowed. I wonder now if someone else borrowed on my account as it was so screwed up. When you phone them they sometimes even admit that their system doesn't make sense! My original Together Loan I signed for was £12.5k yet by the time the morgage papers were with my solicitor it went up to £30k but with a £2k retention. They then didn't loan me 95% LTV on the house but something else without telling me. Confused!

 

I think we both need to carry out a full SAR request.

[Wills999]

hey thanls, yes cou;d i have the SAR template please and how do i send them CCA 1974 section 77 request for your documentation relating to the unsecured loan, they claim liked to a mortgage but mot provided me with any of it

[Wills999]

hey yeah when i spoke with nram customer services they were confused by it, doesnt make sense, just baffled as to how to sort it out

[ceiralennon]

Ok I'll post tomorrow when I get to my pc, the SAR request should cover it all, cost £10 in form of postal order and cca request is £1. I will explain all in next post.

[Wills999]

brilliant thank you

[ceiralennon]

Link for SAR request letter, I would include £10 postal order as that means they cannot delay in gettin the info, take out the part about letting you know if they need the fee.

 

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:q53Ps2msTVQJ:www.ico.gov.uk/youth/section4/~/media/AFB54807D563421FAB3C82C4109B0A41.ashx+dsar+request+letter&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgLVp0aiIX7oJCxkKNNgwem_ChwFJVmVDeBJvhQ14eMttCMYKlCYtX7CN7rXTUmG3Gipf3-F2DC2GYcLeYgYuDvOCQXzHY0zscF6g-0HICrDKbSjdL0s3P0UO1vjxC-7Vnez6VL&sig=AHIEtbRR_wTXQeM3n4KXOJwuBhsmP6zRIw

 

For CCA request - include all info, mortgage account numbers (all of them) send £1 postal order, signed for or recorded delivery.

 

I am requesting my information under CCA 1974 section 77 -

 

A copy of the loan agreement

Account transaction history, statements and interest rates charged (APR)

A copy of the original application form

Terms and conditions relating to the account

All correspondence relating to this account

The accounting procedure used in formulating the agreement i.e. validation of the debt and its structure. The actual accounting process.

Prima facie evidence identifying whose asset was used to initiate and fund the account, in question, in the first instance.

A copy of the contract binding both parties

Verification of the claim against me i.e. a sworn affidavit or invoice.

 

List and other info you need, sign letter but score through signature so they can't lift it and copy on to agreements if you are asking for all signed copies. They can be very sneaky. They have 12 days to get it to you, if they go over they are in breach and cant send another letter of 12 days pass...

 

Letter used when a company fail to provide a copy of your agreement within the 12+2 working days timescale after your initial request for a copy of your agreement made under s 77/8 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Highlights in red must be edited)

 

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Date:

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. This was signed for as delivered on the **DATE**

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE** (12+2 days after you made the initial request).

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you/your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. You will also be aware of the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or unfair methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows - 2.8

 

(i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued'

 

(k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt'

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed Breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

[Wills999]

Awesome, thanks for that i will get on to it right now, i have just spent best part of 90 mins on the phone to the person who was investigating the complaint because i recieved a letter today stating that it was closed. i ripped into him stating that i believed he hadnt investigated properly due to his response.

 

i asked how come i havnt recieved any information about the actual mortgages, i managed to drum into him that when i bought the flat in June 2002 i had £73980 mortgage and £19020 unsecured loan but only used at that time £73980 and about £9000 from the unsecured amount to buy the flat, and in january 2003 we took the remainder of the £19020. Here is the part i got him to read over the phone to me...... In January 2003 when we took the remainder of the money Northern Rock changed the product/account from a together variable mortgage to a standard variable mortgage and they released funds to pay the existing account of £73980 mortgage and £9000 of the £19020 unsecured loan created a mortgage account of £83,381 and the remainder £10,000 unsecured loan and the figures had to be re calculated for a direct debit because we had now taken the whole £19,020 which meant we were paying a new combined monthly figure at a different interest rate right up until i sold the flat in 2004, with them redeaming the mortgage to the value of £85,111 which incorperates the early repayment. As far as we were aware we only had the remainder of the £19,020 unsecured loan to pay off which was under £10,000 by this point.

 

We went on to buy our house 2004, and then in 2008 they have written to us saying we still owe another £10,000 from the £19,020 from the original mortgage account before they changed it to the second one as well as the £10,000 from the second one, and at the time we didnt know any better until this year when i have figured things out.

 

i mentioned that if he was right why would it take 4 years to chase me up about the loan considering i was still paying the other under the new terms. and how comes this wasnt mentioned in 2003 under the revised new mortgage account when we were paying the combined monthly amount.

 

 

his words were i think i have to re-look into it and email other departments, i said being as i recently got copies of 2 x letters from 2003 surely you can find all the relevent mortgage details and information about the change over!!!!

[ceiralennon]

Hi Guys,

 

We have now got NRAM Action Group almost together, please see website created to deal with this as WE need to take them on now.

 

http://www.nramactiongroup.org.uk

 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/NRAM-Action-Group/122282524599273 - PLEASE EVERYONE ADD THIS IF THEY HAVE FACEBOOK.

 

also on twitter and facebook on the above name.

 

If you need to contact me with any information you have please private message me and I will give email address.

 

We need all the support we can get so please get sharing.

 

Thanks

Ceira

Edited March 27, 2013 by ceiralennon

[TezzaJ]

Hi all

 

I have tried to go through this thread but I couldnt find the answer I was looking for.

 

I had a together mortgage in November 2002 - August 2003 with an unsecure amount below 25k but then I remortgaged with them for another house again on a together mortgage in September 03 - September 06 for one with an unsecured above 25k (before closing all off and movig to C&G)..

 

Is this wortwhile me chasing or do i not have a case really to answer?

 

Thanks

[IainHL]

Hello Tezza. Unfortunately for you the current NRAM issue relating to redress for interest charged while not sending out compliant statements comes from new legislation introduced in the consumer Credit Act 2006, and which was implemented in October 2008. As you have redeemed that Together mortgage before then, and in fact over 6 years ago now, I don't really feel you have a case.

[GothBoy]

Just got my Noddle credit report and noticed that my initial loan amount was INDEED for the £12k I signed up for, thus WAS covered under the CCA 74. It's not my fault surely that NR let the borrowing exceed the £25k limit in the act, especially as they didn't tell me!

[pippin21]

Hi everybody,I also have a mortgage with NR, It started in 2004 when i asked nr if i could have some info on porting over to a new property, they said if i sell my old house they will receive the money to pay off the mortgage or most of it, then they will port over whats owing (if anything) from the old house onto the new house mortgage, that way we would only have one monthly payment. so we ported over. 2yrs down the line we receive a letter from nr that there is £13000 unsecured outstanding from the old house. We argued with nr about this & told them that the solicitor they appointed ( Dickensons) had sorted all this out and we do not owe £13000. NR said it has gone upto £13000 because of the charges mounting up over the 2yrs. For another 2yrs we refused to pay that much and battled with them. we rang the solicitors ( Dickensons ) who dealt with all this and it seemed that all the people that we dealt with had actually left the company. ( how convenient) Well the £13000 soon shot upto £23000, due to charges according to nr. When we stated to nr that they told us we would have only the one mthly payment they said that is not the case. We said we were mis-informed then. we also requested a copy of the tape recording from that porting over conversation but they told us they could not find the conversation. Now thru this i have gone into arrears of £8000 on my mortgage & several thousands in arrears on the unsecured. and nr are telling us we have to pay £721. per mth or they will repossess our home. We are just about ready to just give up as paying this is leaving us without food. i need some help & advise too.

[Debvfm]

I too have a Together Mortgage with NRAM I have been told today (my account is in arrears both with the mortgage and the unsecured loan) that when I make a payment nothing is coming off of the Unsecured part of the Loan. I am unsure of the rates of interest that should be calculated on such and wondered if anyone had an idea?

 

Many thanks

[Consumer8992223]

I am currently engaged in litigation against NRAM. This was a together mortgage comprising a secured element and CCA regulated unsecured element (under 25k). Like everyone else, I relied on the paperwork provided by NRAM. The mortgage offer did not comply with the MCOB (the figures did not add up, the interest rate did not match the repayment amount and so on). The CCA agreement did not state an amount for the amount of monthly payment, but had a paragraph like credit cards do. The interest rate on the CCA loan did not match the amount of repayments being made. Following redundancy I fell into arrears and focused on repaying the secured element only, notifying NRAM that this was the case (as there is a clause in the CCA contract about my being able to specify as such so they can't apportion payments - but they ignored me and did this anyway). Also the late payments fees were challenged as excessive. They ignored that. After a while of being ignored, they sent me a recapitalisation offer based on tacit acceptance and my paying the "contractual amount" that month, even though the contractual amount was in dispute. I made a payment as best I could, but NRAM never said the recapitalisation had not taken place. In any event, they were still ignoring my legitimate concerns. After some more time, I sent them a compromise letter offering revised terms, and a cheque for them to cash if they accepted those terms. They cashed the cheque but did not reject the terms or write to me saying they were holding the funds to set off against the mortgage - so they accepted the compromise terms. I then made payments on the new terms for 2 months, but they proceeded to instruct an LPA receiver, contacted the tenant (who was on housing benefit) and managing agents. The local authority stopped the tenant's housing benefit so they could determine "who the owner of the property is" but the receiver never sought to contact the local authority, instead evicted the tenant after 6 months of no rental income, then sold for £20k below market value, claiming a shortfall of around £50 was due to them (which includes the charges and fees plus interest).

 

Despite the fact that my action against NRAM is on a CFA with solicitor and barrister and ATE insurance AND despite the fact I have no property or income, NRAM have counterclaimed against me for the £50k and will not engage in any way in mediation to settle the matter - if I win, they will have to write off the 50k and pay my costs and some damages, but they are happy to go to court knowing I have nothing so even if they ultimately win, any judgment against me can only be "enforced" with bankruptcy - so they will have to write off the 50k, plus whatever their costs are. There is no commercial logic to their approach whatsoever, they appear happy to rack up costs that will be written off later and appear content regardless of the cost to the taxpayer. It is a complex case with several issues, but basically my claim is for twice as much as theirs and they know that if I lose I will seek to appeal, but I think if they lose they will too.

 

Having looked at this thread, there are clearly lots of problems around the together mortgages and the way NRAM conducted itself, but very little appears to actually be happening in terms of complaints to regulators, or action through the courts.

 

I would like to hear from ANYONE who is engaged in litigation against NRAM, or has complained to a regulator, as many of the issues here appear to relate to the same or similar issues of conduct/behaviour and what the contracts actually said - collaboration between different NRAM "victims" would certainly help to ensure a continuity in dealing with them.

[danmil]

Hi ,

 

I too have the same mortgage with them.

 

Unfortunately I cant find any paperwork what so ever, would I be able to request a copy from Nram.. as I am now behind on payments.. and would like to see if my agreement is lawful.

 

Regards

 

DM

[ceiralennon]

I am currently engaged in litigation against NRAM. This was a together mortgage comprising a secured element and CCA regulated unsecured element (under 25k). Like everyone else, I relied on the paperwork provided by NRAM. The mortgage offer did not comply with the MCOB (the figures did not add up, the interest rate did not match the repayment amount and so on). The CCA agreement did not state an amount for the amount of monthly payment, but had a paragraph like credit cards do. The interest rate on the CCA loan did not match the amount of repayments being made. Following redundancy I fell into arrears and focused on repaying the secured element only, notifying NRAM that this was the case (as there is a clause in the CCA contract about my being able to specify as such so they can't apportion payments - but they ignored me and did this anyway). Also the late payments fees were challenged as excessive. They ignored that. After a while of being ignored, they sent me a recapitalisation offer based on tacit acceptance and my paying the "contractual amount" that month, even though the contractual amount was in dispute. I made a payment as best I could, but NRAM never said the recapitalisation had not taken place. In any event, they were still ignoring my legitimate concerns. After some more time, I sent them a compromise letter offering revised terms, and a cheque for them to cash if they accepted those terms. They cashed the cheque but did not reject the terms or write to me saying they were holding the funds to set off against the mortgage - so they accepted the compromise terms. I then made payments on the new terms for 2 months, but they proceeded to instruct an LPA receiver, contacted the tenant (who was on housing benefit) and managing agents. The local authority stopped the tenant's housing benefit so they could determine "who the owner of the property is" but the receiver never sought to contact the local authority, instead evicted the tenant after 6 months of no rental income, then sold for £20k below market value, claiming a shortfall of around £50 was due to them (which includes the charges and fees plus interest).

 

Despite the fact that my action against NRAM is on a CFA with solicitor and barrister and ATE insurance AND despite the fact I have no property or income, NRAM have counterclaimed against me for the £50k and will not engage in any way in mediation to settle the matter - if I win, they will have to write off the 50k and pay my costs and some damages, but they are happy to go to court knowing I have nothing so even if they ultimately win, any judgment against me can only be "enforced" with bankruptcy - so they will have to write off the 50k, plus whatever their costs are. There is no commercial logic to their approach whatsoever, they appear happy to rack up costs that will be written off later and appear content regardless of the cost to the taxpayer. It is a complex case with several issues, but basically my claim is for twice as much as theirs and they know that if I lose I will seek to appeal, but I think if they lose they will too.

 

Having looked at this thread, there are clearly lots of problems around the together mortgages and the way NRAM conducted itself, but very little appears to actually be happening in terms of complaints to regulators, or action through the courts.

 

I would like to hear from ANYONE who is engaged in litigation against NRAM, or has complained to a regulator, as many of the issues here appear to relate to the same or similar issues of conduct/behaviour and what the contracts actually said - collaboration between different NRAM "victims" would certainly help to ensure a continuity in dealing with them.

 

We have started and action group called nram action group . Org . Uk can't post links here.

 

We are helping someone as nram are going for repossession, at the hearing judge sent nram away as the paper work they had didn't constitue a lawful mortgage in uk,

If you are able to pm your email I can put you in touch with rest of our help....

[highlandertom]

Hi Consumer,

 

Good luck with your case. I am watching with interest, I sent NRAM a SAR last year, and got almost nothing back, took it to the ICO, but they were no help - no teeth. NRAM is a DCA, and dishonest to the core, will not answer questions. I am trying to find out how they calculate interest? they will not tell me, so think that I need to find an accountant to check their figures, I simply do not believe or trust them.And now that they are only sending out 'statements' on a yearly basis??? we don't have a clue what they are up to! I do not have a 'together mortgage' but received a loan on top of the mortgage, but got NO information about the loan in the SAR paperwork. So I will get back on to them, my MP and any other regulatory body I can.

[jhill]

IMPORTANT! Northern Rock Case Info Needed

 

Hi,

 

I've spent many hours researching the issue of Northern Rock Together Mortgages with loans over £25,000 and I think that there are two members on this site that can really help... Petebeds and Josie8 appear to have successfully argued in court that whilst a NR loan was for more than £25,000, since it was executed on CCA regulated paperwork the borrower should be afforded the protection of the CCA.

 

I am not a prolific poster and so I can not message them directly but can anyone try and reach out to Josie8 or Petebeds for comment on this.

 

Showing the FOS that judges have ruled that loans in excess of £25,000 that were executed on regulated paperwork will be a very powerful argument for all of us in the same situation.

 

Thanks in advance if anyone can help!

[citizenB]

Can those with unsecured loans with NRAM (Together mortgages) £25,000 and over - please make their way to this thread.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?394905-Northern-ROck-NRAM-Together-Mortgages-with-unsecured-loans-in-excess-of-£25-000

[Consumer8992223]

Hi, I don't have enough points to PM you. Can you PM me your email and I will reply from there

 

thanks

[jhill]

Hi, I don't have enough points to PM you. Can you PM me your email and I will reply from there

 

thanks

 

Hi Consumer8992223 - I don't have enough points either!