Northern Rock are Laughing at my claim? (Not anymore) *WON*

[Maximus69]

Hi everyone,

has anybody else tried to claim back bank charges from Northern Rock?

 

I wrote to them and received 6 years of charges applied to my current account.

I then wrote to them stating the charges were unlawful etc and asked for a full refund. ( i did not know about the Preliminary & Letter before Action templates)

 

They wrote back refuting that the charges applied to my account are unlawful, unfair or represent a penalty etc.

 

PLEASE FIND A FULL VERSION OF THERE REPLIES IN THE WELCOLME FORUM, page 5.

 

I then sent a slightly altered version of the Letter before Action template letter to them with a copy of the 8% pa interest calculations etc and stating I would be making a claim without further notice etc.

 

I now realise I should not have sent the 8% calculations etc.

 

So i have dropped a bollock, but my problem is where do I go from here?

 

In reply to Bookworm, i have read all of the FAQ and step by step instructions again.

 

CAN YOU PLEASE READ MY ORIGINAL POST AS DESCRIBED ABOVE AND LET ME KNOW WHAT i NEED TO DO NEXT?

 

Cheers

 

Maximus69

[Tigs33]

Hi, If I was you I would right again to them (again the LBA) stating that they have 14 days to refund your charges (DO NOT ADD THE 8% INTEREST) and then if they don't refund your money, put in a claim for the full amount.

[Maximus69]

Thanks for that Tigs.

You seem to have your hands full at the moment. Good Luck and i will keep my thread fully updated. Did you manage to read my first post and if yes, what did you think of there replies?

Cheers

NED. 0:)

[Tigs33]

Hi,

 

Well I think their letters would have been quite a standard one if the second letter hadn't have been so patronizing. As BW said have a bit more of a read of the forums and the FAQs. I think you will be ok if you continue with your course of action but do try and read a bit more about what you are doing. If you go to court you will have to know all of the facts.

 

Good luck

[Maximus69]

Thanks for that,

 

I am going to wait and see if BW replies with anymore advice.

Cheers.

Ned

[Maximus69]

Hi everyone, not much response on this 1. I must say i am disappointed with the help and advice not being received from the more experienced people, who have 'been there and got the t-shirt'.

I just feel that my next move is crucial and has to be spot on content wise to show these arrogant bankers they cant just push us around..

 

Any advice out there will be more than welcome.

 

Cheers.

[misspickles]

My advice is to private message a site helper or moderator to get your threads merged onto this one as it is very confusing going back and forth between threads trying to follow what has happened. You may get more responses if you do this. My understanding in laymens term is that so far you have said to them - these charges are unlawful as they are a penalty and if you say they are not a penalty but a service charge then they are still unlawful as they are a disproportionate charge and they have said back they arent a penalty they are a service so we can charge what we like. Which we know they cant. Seems to me like they are trying to fob you off, but i cant advise you where to go next as i am confused as to where you are actually up to? If you spell it out for me Ill be glad to offer my opinion.

Miss P x

[Maximus69]

Hi Miss P.

Basically I wrote in and requested 6 years charges applied to my current account. They sent these out and they came to nearly £3000. I then wrote to them claiming a full refund as the charges applied were deemed as unfair and unlawful.

They then replied denying that the charges applied were unlawful, unfair or represented a penalty. Under there T&C's they supply services to me and apply charges and interest in return for these services. I had signed to say that I had read and understood these T&C's.

There are 3 states of position of my account, in credit,authorised and un-authorised overdraft situations. They say my account is still envisaged as being in a position within the T&C's and therefore not in breach. Then they claim under law, a penalty where there is a breach of contract and the measure of damages is not considered to represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss. In summary, the charges are for services provided.

 

I then sent a 3/4 LBA template letter. They replied with the folllowing;

 

It appears from your letter that you have failed to grasp or chosen to ignore the key legal issues in relation to charges for services provided etc.

 

Charges on current accounts are for services provided and are not default charges.

 

In law, for a clause to be deemed a penalty clause, it has to operate due to a breach of contract.

 

The current account charges are entirely lawful, they are not an illegal penalty and nor are they unfair or unenforceable.

 

Northern Rock looks forward to to receiving your substantive response to the legal points raised in this letter and the other letters.We do not consider that your letters disclose reasonable grounds for bringing a claim against it, nor if such a claim were issued, that it would have any prospect of success.

 

What I need to be sure of from this point, is what kind of response to i reply with. As suggested, maybe an exact copy of the LBA template letter or do i need to respond to their queries they have raised.

 

HELP. :?

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[zootscoot]

Hi Malcolm,

 

Try something like this:

 

 

Dear xxx

 

Thank you for your letter dated xx/xx/xxxx regarding my request for the repayment of charges in which you claim that the charges are lawful as they do not relate to a breach of contract.

 

I find this a rather bazar argument as it is clearly stated in the terms and conditions that I must have sufficient funds in my account to cover cheques, direct debits and standing orders. Thus when you provide the service of returning these items unpaid, these services clearly relate to a breach. It also clearly states in my contract that I have an overdraft limit of XXXX. If I go over this limit I am thus in breach of this term of the contract. The fact that you contemplate me breaching this term can not and will not prevent me from being in breach. To draw an analogy from criminal law, the fact that a policeman foresees that a persistent offender will reoffend once released from prison, does not make the offenders actions lawful when he does in fact offend. Thus the only plausible analysis that can be applied is that you have contemplated my breach of contract and provided for this eventuality with your charges. English contract law requires such a fee to be a genuine pre-estimate of your losses if it is to be lawful following the case of Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79 A charge will be held to be a penalty if the sum stipulated for is extravagant and unconscionable in amount in comparison to the greatest loss that could conceivably be proved to have followed from the breach. A penalty clause is void in its entirety and unenforceable.

 

I believe that the charges you have levied of XXXXX far exceed any true cost to yourself as a result of our breach and any genuine pre-estimate you could conceivably reach. If you disagree, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put to as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your charges really do reflect your costs.

 

In addition your charges appear to represent an unfair term of contract which is contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI. 1999/2083). Our account falls within the ambit of Regulation 5 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 as we are consumers. Your charges constitute an unfair penalty under Schedule 2 of the said Regulations which provide an indicative and non-exhaustive list of terms which may be regarded as unfair. Under paragraph 1(e) of schedule 2 this specifically includes terms which have the object of requiring any consumer who fails his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation. We would vigorously contend that this is the position regarding the fees of XXXX which you deemed fit to apply to our account.

 

The fact that I agreed to these charges when I opened my account does not make these charges enforceable. In all the cases regarding penalty clauses there is no dispute that the term was agreed to. However, a court finding of a penalty clause as oppose to a liquidated damages clause renders the clause unenforceable in its entirety even if it has in fact been agreed to.

 

 

I do hope this clears things up for you and demonstrates that I have in fact grasped the legal points involved. The factors relating to breach of contract really are quite simplistic. I find it extraordinary that I as a lay person, am having to explain such matters to a legal expert as yourself. I shall certainly look forward to seeing you in court.

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

xxxx

 

If the LBA has expired whack a moneyclaim on them as well.

The letters are generally just delaying tactics or intimidation. If they try this defence they will be laughed out of court.

 

Good luck and keep us updated

[misspickles]

brill letter zoot! Ive pm'd you some info malcom to give you a bit of confidence. If youve mucked up a bit on the LBA i would send zoot letter with revised LBA giving 7 days to respond, that way youve covered all bases. then file for court! Miss P x

[BaldyBaldwin]

northern rock are not laughing at your claim, in fact they are dead worried, and that is why they are useing there only weapon; intimidation. dont be scared off by there letters (weve all had them) stick to your timetable, get your claim filed and eventualy your money will find its way home.

best of luck

p.s. cracking letter zoot

[Maximus69]

Thanks guys,

I am overwhelmed with guilt for doubting the good guys out there!! I must also agree with you guys in saying, what a BELTER OF A LETTER from Zoot. I will raise a glass of the dark stuff (Guinness) in your honour tonight at exactly 8.30pm.

I now say, BRING IT ON Northern Rock, you bankers!!!

I will keep you guys fully updated.

Cheers me dears,

Malcolm. 0:);

[lancsman]

Best of luck Maximus(Malcom)

I am at present well busy with Lloyds bank who are a tough nut to crack but like you will persevere.

got a weeny claim against northern rock£60.00 but the principle is the same,zoots letter is good.but you need to read the threads/stickies at the top of the pages.

 

They are "cloaking the Penalty"with their excuses,

It isnt suprising you arent/werent getting much help as Northern Rock aren,t big players in the"naughty banks"stakes.

Only known one other person going up against them and i havnt been active on the "northern rock scene.

I would say don,t get into a verbal dialogue with them only use letters or e-mail as its all written down and recorded.

When you get to the "moneyclaim"stage they will then realise you mean business,hopefully with the threat of court action (which you must prepare for as it could very well happen) they will start to negotiate.

stick out for your money and 8% once "moneyclaimed".

B.B.4.NOW BED CALLS.GOOD HUNTING....

[Peterbard]

I have just sent off my LBA to Northern Rock Giving them 14 days to reply together with the list of charges and interest without the statutory 8% as advised. IN the post this morning was a letter from them adding yet more charges too my account for my overdraught. Can i add these to my cca or do I have to re start the whole preceeedings for the new amount. I realise the best thing to do would be to close the account but thanks to the negative remarks they have put on my credit file i am finding it dificult to open a new one to have my wages paid into.

[Peterbard]

Since Northern rock are still charging above the recomend £12 for penalty charges .Can i report them directly to the OFT and challenge their right to hold a licence. If i can is there a link that i should look at when preparing my letter.

 

Peter

[spartagates]

Since Northern rock are still charging above the recomend £12 for penalty charges .Can i report them directly to the OFT and challenge their right to hold a licence. If i can is there a link that i should look at when preparing my letter.

 

Peter

 

Personally, I would concentrate on one thing at a time; stick with the LBA you have sent and aim to recover your money, then if your still inclined, think about the OFT etc. You will no doubt get confused and make mistakes if you try to do too much at once, stick witht the tried and tested method as set out in the FAQ.

[Peterbard]

Thanks for that and i know where you are coming from. I just thought it would might make it easier for other people's future claims if the cloaking [problem] was once and for all revealed for what it is

[BaldyBaldwin]

you can add all the charges taken from your account up to the time you file your claim in court, anything after should be a seperate claim

[lancsman]

hello Peterbard

quote "Since Northern rock are still charging above the recomend £12 for penalty charges .Can i report them directly to the OFT and challenge their right to hold a licence"

 

From what i am aware if youre not talking credit card charges then you cannot yet hold them to the upper limit of £12.00 as the O.F.T. did not include bank charges in these but there is,i believe going to be an investigation by O.F.T. eventually.

 

You could write to the office of fair trading telling them of the unfair practices you feel that Northern Rock are undertaking.

 

best of luck

[lancsman]

P.s.Peterbard have you started your own thread yet?Would make it easier to follow

As you have hijacked Maximus's thread !

by the way how you doin Ned?

[CJ&theBOS]

excellent letter by Zoot though bazar = bizarre no?

[Peterbard]

Sorry John and Maximus

I know ignorance is no defenece but i am new to this sort of foum.I will start my own thread today

 

Regards

Peter

[lancsman]

NOT A PROBLEM DO TELL US WOT U R CALLING IT.Sorry just realised wos shoutin(caps!) Do check threads and F.A.Q. Stickies as well 4 advice.

best of luck.

Be determined everyone follow the rules and see wot happens?

[Welshman]

Since Northern rock are still charging above the recomend £12 for penalty charges .Can i report them directly to the OFT and challenge their right to hold a licence. If i can is there a link that i should look at when preparing my letter.

 

Peter

 

I wouldn't bother. The OFT are looking into it right now and are due to report by the end of the year or early 2007. Anyway, claimants are arguing that 100% of the penalty charges are unlawful, not anything over £12.

[lancsman]

Diochn vawr Welshman.Naustaw. Thought somat was bein investigated but didn,t know the time line...