Kingston Eden Street Bus Lanes

[frontseatdriver]

I guess the govt must have been bored the day they drafted the LLA 2003 and thought they'd just write a new bit of law just for the fun of it!

 

More like they had NO idea what law was in force and thought we need something that addresses this - lets just write something! They would benefit from some legal research lessons!

[HYMN AND MI]

 

[HYMN AND MI]

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/images/uksi_20023113_en_152

 

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/images/uksi_20023113_en_154

 

 

Take your pick: 1048.1 v 1048.4 ??????

 

I am now totally confused! Irony is, RBK wanted to place the correct one (1048.4?) but DfT said no!

 

Whatever, the positioning of the pole sign to the legend is wrong, which is why many people go down the lane by accident: the pole sign should be before the legend. And the legend should not be on a hump as you don't notice it.

 

I now say 1048.4 should have been authorised and that 1048 is wrong i.e. as apparently authorised by DfT. Surely, an adjudicator would have to accept that the use of "Bus Lane" is contrary to statute since it does not clearly indicate what traffic is allowed and does not satisy this:

The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996

Traffic signs

 

18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force; and

©in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.

 

Edited November 11, 2010 by HYMN AND MI

[Smanf]

You just ignore PPCN's!

??

[HYMN AND MI]

Private Parking Charge Notices.

[HYMN AND MI]

Have faith: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/11/12/bus-lane-tickets-torn-up-after-liverpool-city-council-sign-fiasco-100252-27644419/

[frontseatdriver]

Have faith: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/11/12/bus-lane-tickets-torn-up-after-liverpool-city-council-sign-fiasco-100252-27644419/

 

Love this! I want to know exactly what the signs were!

[HYMN AND MI]

Love this! I want to know exactly what the signs were!

 

TPT: [email protected]

[esmerobbo]

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.404877,-2.977966&spn=0,0.264187&z=13&layer=c&cbll=53.404803,-2.977879&panoid=o7loEyppxVzsFHyLsabLqg&cbp=12,0.06,,0,5

 

The sign they removed was the one by the street cleaning vehicle.

 

Because the road splits left, straight, right it could have looked like the bus lane was to the left.

Edited November 12, 2010 by esmerobbo

[HYMN AND MI]

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/images/uksi_20023113_en_094

 

Have they removed the variation of 877 as well, because that contains a 953 and 953,2 according to Google? This is the warning sign about 30 or so metres before the cleaning vehicle i.e. just in front of the blue Arriva bus.

 

Thanks very much, BTW!

[esmerobbo]

Hi

Not sure but I am down there tomorrow so I will check and see what changes they have made.

[HYMN AND MI]

Edited.

Edited November 12, 2010 by HYMN AND MI

[green_and_mean]

More stupidity from RBK in the traffic order as they have not removed the general exemptions from the Eden street order

 

Exemptions - Bus Lanes

 

4. (1) The controls specified in article 3(1) do not apply so as to prevent a vehicle being in a bus lane

if and for as long as necessary:-

(a) to enable a person to get on or off the vehicle; or

(b) to enable goods to be loaded on to or unloaded from the vehicle;

if and in so far as the activity is not prohibited by the provisions of any other Order.

 

(2) The controls specified in article 3(1) do not apply in respect of a vehicle which is being used

for a purpose which is within an exemption to a restriction or prohibition imposed by any

other Order or which is permitted by any other Order.

 

(3) The controls specified in article 3(1) do not apply in respect of a vehicle crossing a bus lane to

get to or from any road adjacent to the bus lane or any vehicular access to premises adjacent to

the bus lane.

 

 

So in theory you can enter the Bus lane and drive down it in order to load and unload and/or drop someone off.

[Smanf]

Private Parking Charge Notices.

 

Lol, no, I don't ignore them, they fall under contract law (completely different to what we are dealing with here), and I did a fair bit on contract law at college, kind of irrelevant to this case, but still good fun, none the less.

 

Anyway, I went back to the scene of the crime earlier and took some pics. I stand corrected, the 'bus lane' is in fact red, contrary to my earlier statement, that is however a minor detail.

 

The whole thing is a mess, about 1 in every 7 cars unwittingly went up that 'bus lane' and one lady infact panicked upon arriving at the mini r'bout near where Beaties used to be and ended up turning right, the wrong way up a one way street. (I hope my camera and I were not the sole cause of this action!!)

 

I am a little un-nerved however to see that, although the signs are somewhat contradictory, they do kind of (in albeit in a haphazard way) make it clear that you shouldn't go up that road. I am still not going to take it lying down however, and am going to have another look at that road signs chapter 3 booklet thingy and try and make sense of what exactly this 'bus lane' is (whether it be a contra-flow / bus gate etc.) One thing I did notice (and took a picture of) was that while I was there, a van was unloading and was parked half across the 'turn right' sign before the Union Street jct, and was obscuring it from view.

[HYMN AND MI]

Oh yes, it's a dog's dinner all right! Contract Law, eh? So I am unwittingly agreeing to a contract whenever I park in a supermarket, e.g.! Contra pro ferentem and all that!

 

Getting back to the matter at hand: there's not much point in intellectualising about this and that sign, retrospectively: you have to use your imagination and recreate the journey down that infamous piece of road in order to find the solutions i.e. that the signage does not meet the requirements. Surely, nobody drives down there on purpose!

Edited November 13, 2010 by HYMN AND MI

[Smanf]

Has anyone actually requested a copy of the traffic order, just to see what it says? Sorry if this question has already been asked previously.

[HYMN AND MI]

More stupidity from RBK in the traffic order as they have not removed the general exemptions from the Eden street order

 

Exemptions - Bus Lanes

 

4. (1) The controls specified in article 3(1) do not apply so as to prevent a vehicle being in a bus lane

if and for as long as necessary:-

(a) to enable a person to get on or off the vehicle; or

(b) to enable goods to be loaded on to or unloaded from the vehicle;

if and in so far as the activity is not prohibited by the provisions of any other Order.

 

(2) The controls specified in article 3(1) do not apply in respect of a vehicle which is being used

for a purpose which is within an exemption to a restriction or prohibition imposed by any

other Order or which is permitted by any other Order.

 

(3) The controls specified in article 3(1) do not apply in respect of a vehicle crossing a bus lane to

get to or from any road adjacent to the bus lane or any vehicular access to premises adjacent to

the bus lane.

 

 

So in theory you can enter the Bus lane and drive down it in order to load and unload and/or drop someone off.

 

Agreed. Unfortunately, as per the Prescribed Route Order, first doc., the argument re the bollards being up in St. James' Road cannot be used as this is on instruction by the Police, which they have covered nicely in 3(b)! However,.................

 

Should the Order not also state that they had also consulted the DfT, which they clearly did? Just a simple question?

Edited November 14, 2010 by HYMN AND MI

[HYMN AND MI]

Concerning the unjust enrichment via this location and other matters pertaining to unlawful credit card surcharges being applied to previous penalty charges paid on line, this needs a local elector to contact the Audit Commission to instruct the Council to reimburse all those who fell victim to the surcharges, at least, since the Council is only prepared to reimburse the surcharge: if you look at key cases from both PATAS and TPT, these cases would have been won at appeal so the whole penalty charge plus surcharge should be reimbursed. I do believe another little story is brewing.

[Islander]

I have been the unhappy recipient of 3 tickets from RBK, all of which have been allegedly committed by my son, a newly-passed driver as of 5/11/10. The vehicle is registered to me for insurance purposes. Two of the tickets, (notices dated 18/11), refer to the same vehicle on the same date and time as being in two different places at once on 13/11. One of those places is Eden Street and the other Cambridge Road. The 3rd ticket is also for Eden Street on 6/11, (notice dated 13/11). All 3 are for contravention of Code 34J of the bus lane regulations, (being in a bus lane).

 

I have to contest the first ticket today and will hand in the following letter covering all 3 tickets, based on some of the posts in this thread.

 

I wish to contest parking tickets: KT553600003, KT55368797, and KT5536880A.

In the case of KT553600003 and KT5536880A I do not accept that the vehicle has contravened bus lane regulations when there isn’t a correctly marked and sign-posted bus lane in existence. There is also no advance warning of a bus lane ahead. The right turn painted onto the road is mandatory but yet buses can go straight on….and in the evenings one can often not turn right anyway, so what then?

In the case of KT55368797 and KT5536880A, the vehicle could not have been in two places at the same time on the same day.

I would like to see:

1. The video and photo evidence for all 3 of the above tickets.

2. A copy of the Traffic Management order for the lane and for the right turn.

3. CEO’s notes and the code of conduct re the cctv.

 

I will wait and see what happens and would appreciate any help out there in successfully having these tickets cancelled because I believe this particular junction has been marked as a money-earner for the council, not because of safe passage issues for buses or to prevent accidents....

[HYMN AND MI]

Have you taken pics of all signs? Please consider ringing the Surrey Comet 02087444288 re this Eden Street. Something is coming out this week.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

The vehicle is registered to me for insurance purposes.

 

Be very careful here. If you are owning and insuring a vehicle for which your son is the main driver (and I know that is not what you have said) then unless the insurers are aware of this, it could cause no end of problems later.

[Islander]

Be very careful here. If you are owning and insuring a vehicle for which your son is the main driver (and I know that is not what you have said) then unless the insurers are aware of this, it could cause no end of problems later.

 

The insurance company suggested that I register the vehicle in my name with the insurance in my name and my son and partner as named drivers. This was the cheapest way to get my son insured.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Great, so long as you have it in writing

[pixie1809]

I am new to this and an aware that there are 12 pages of this thread already - however, I was just wondering if anyone can advise on appealing against a PCN for driving in the bus lane in Eden Street currently?

 

Last Saturday, a friend who has never been to Kingston, drove us both there and we parked in the Marks & Spencer car park in St James' Road. On leaving, at 6.20pm, rather than crossing straight ahead into the other half of St James' Road towards the large roundabaout, my friend turned left into Eden Street.

 

I, as the passenger, was speaking to her three year old who had started to tantrum in the back seat, when she made this turn. I knew that ideally we had needed to go straight on, but didn't know that turning left meant you were in a bus lane.

 

My friend, never having driven to Kingston before, also did not know it was a bus lane and did not see the wording in the road at that point.

 

We did not see any further signs after she made this turn and were simply concentrating on getting back in the right direction and not ending up going over the Kingston bridge, so detoured down Eden Street, around the one way system past Wilkinsons and ended up coming back round and to the roundabout, albeit from a different direction, that we had intended to be on.

 

However, my friend has not been made aware of her error because she has received a PCN notice this morning for driving in a bus lane.

 

Is there any point in appealing this PCN or is it a case of having to just suck it and pay up? We must only have been in it for a short while, and would not have driven in it intentionally. It has certainly left bitter taste about travelling to Kingston this morning. I accept that driving in the bus lane is not allowed, but is there any recourse for having made an error?

 

Thank you.

[green_and_mean]

I am new to this and an aware that there are 12 pages of this thread already - however, I was just wondering if anyone can advise on appealing against a PCN for driving in the bus lane in Eden Street currently?

 

Last Saturday, a friend who has never been to Kingston, drove us both there and we parked in the Marks & Spencer car park in St James' Road. On leaving, at 6.20pm, rather than crossing straight ahead into the other half of St James' Road towards the large roundabaout, my friend turned left into Eden Street.

 

I, as the passenger, was speaking to her three year old who had started to tantrum in the back seat, when she made this turn. I knew that ideally we had needed to go straight on, but didn't know that turning left meant you were in a bus lane.

 

My friend, never having driven to Kingston before, also did not know it was a bus lane and did not see the wording in the road at that point.

 

We did not see any further signs after she made this turn and were simply concentrating on getting back in the right direction and not ending up going over the Kingston bridge, so detoured down Eden Street, around the one way system past Wilkinsons and ended up coming back round and to the roundabout, albeit from a different direction, that we had intended to be on.

 

However, my friend has not been made aware of her error because she has received a PCN notice this morning for driving in a bus lane.

 

Is there any point in appealing this PCN or is it a case of having to just suck it and pay up? We must only have been in it for a short while, and would not have driven in it intentionally. It has certainly left bitter taste about travelling to Kingston this morning. I accept that driving in the bus lane is not allowed, but is there any recourse for having made an error?

 

Thank you.

 

As far as I'm aware no one that has posted on this thread has yet had to pay their PCN. Can you post a few more details such as the location there are 2 sections of bus lane and a copy of the PCN if possible.