Assault by conductor/fare evasion

[lemon_martini2]

I was travelling from Redruth to Newton Abbot.Redruth is a small station and doesn't have any ticket machines-it is purely the office. About 5 minutes before the arrival of the train,the staff have to go out to greet the train-the blinds are pulled down in the ticket office and it is temporarily closed,so there were no facilities for buying tickets.

 

There was no ticket inspector at all through Cornwall(this is not unusual for them to start/end journeys at Plymouth and the staff to just be the driver and the staff in the buffet car).

 

I was returning from the buffet car when I was stopped and asked for my ticket.I told him I had not got one with me,but my jacket was back at my seat and I would be able to purchase it there.He blocked the aisle and told me I would not be able to return to my seat until I had produced a ticket-I replied that I was not able to buy a ticket until I got back to my seat.

 

Another passenger came past and when he stepped back to let them past,I attempted to go back to my seat.I was met with an elbow to the ribs which shoved me into the back of the seat.I was told that I was travelling without a ticket which was illegal and that the police would be called.

 

He asked me my destination which I told him was Newton Abbot-at first he told me we had passed there(we had not) and was then told I would be kept on until Exeter,where the police would be called and I would be arrested. I stated I would be leaving at Newton Abbot and asked and was told I would be kept on the train by force if necessary.Since there no facilities for purchasing my desired ticket at the station,I had committed no offence and the police could not detain me.

 

I was told I could be detained as even if he did agree to sell me a ticket to Newton Abbot,I would have passed the destination I had paid for.

 

I did attempt to get another passenger to bring my money down to me,but he stated that he would not sell me a ticket even if I had the money to pay.

 

Eventually we approached Newton Abbot station and I got up to leave.He saw me approaching the door and stood in front of it to block me,so I went to the next one down.As I opened the door and went to step down,he reached over and slammed the door shut on me,barring me with his arm.I went to the first door and went to get out.He was attempting to grab me with his arm to drag me back onto the train and was kicking the back of my legs and ankles.I managed to push him off and get out of the door and escape. I reported it to the police,but have been told that since there was no CCTV,it would be his word against mine.

 

I was also told that if I attempted to proceed with the assault charges,they would take action against me for fare evasion.

 

Furthermore,once I had left the train,I found that money in my jacket pocket was missing-whilst there is unfortunately no proof as to who took it,there were no other people who had gone past the jacket and rather stupidly,I had told him when arguing that my money was in my jacket pocket.Without this money,I wouldn't have enough to pay for the ticket and I feel that he would have attempted to have me detained on these grounds.

 

What are my next steps-obviously a complaint to the railway company-what should be included? Unfortunately,most of is it circumstantial and it's likely to be my word against his.

[loopinlouie]

Goodness thats awful. Ive never heared of them detaining past where you intend to get off. You would think if the police were needed they would call them to place you were getting off.

 

Isn there any cctv on the train?

[RPI]

These are very serious accusations you are making, I find it rather convenient that your money had "dissapeared" when you did get your jacket and find the whole story difficult to believe!

[SRPO]

My BS detector is flashing...

Your story has more holes than edam cheese.

If you were assaulted you must make that allegation to the police, the fare evasion matter is irrelevant if true.

However, if your story is BS, be prepared for very expensive legal action by the guard + his union + the railway company and possible criminal action by the police.

[dx100uk]

urm........

 

dx

[timbo58]

FYI: there are NO trains on which it is only the driver and buffet staff (since you mentioned the buffet it MUST have been an HST or a XC service or possibly a loco hauled service) all trains have a guard which you should have sought out to purchase a ticket. This is not just good advice, it is your legal responsibility.

You also have shown you knew the booking office closes temporarily before the train arrives, since you knew this it could be argued you denied yourself the opportunity of purchase at this juncture.

 

Your account doesn't really hold much water to be fair, although I have heard of over zealous staff (I think it was the guard you encountered not an RPI): No staff are likely to assault passengers on a whim IME, or to try and hold onto you past your destination: I'm not saying it didn't happen, just it would be exceptionally unusual (and I speak as an Ex FGW Revenue Inspector manager) for them to risk their own jobs and assault by starting or attempting to start a fight.

 

I trained my staff to make an accurate report and pass on this knowledge, it then would follow that a one-off fare evader might get away with a short trip, but not on a regular basis, they wouldn't attempt to detain as only an properly authorised RPI can actually caution or arrest and even then detaining a passenger is usually asking to be assaulted unless the staff heavily outnumber or the police near to hand.

 

 

FGW will look into any allegation seriously but I think you can expect a counter investigation into you if no fault is found, remember there is clear evidence YOU committed an offence, even if only a statutory one of 'no ticket or means'.

 

If you did Leave your money in your jacket unattended it was foolish and frankly since you had just been to the buffet you MUST have taken monies with you: hence not terribly believable either.

 

Remember: legally you were in a controlled area without a ticket or other authority to be there, you had no funds to pay for one either and had not taken opportunities to purchase one.

 

I have to agree this story smells badly, I await to be convinced otherwise.

[loopinlouie]

The previous poster is correct on the issue of responsibily to find the guard and pay for the ticket rather than wait to be approached.

 

If what you say is true, approach the police.

[lemon_martini2]

I have been to the police and reported it-I did state this in my post-I had a crime reference number from British Transport Police and statements were taken.I was told that in the absence of any other witnesses'evidence(there was no CCTV on the train and although there were CCTV cameras at the station,they would not show what was happening inside the vestibules of the train)that it would have been my word against the guard's and it would be very difficult to prove the assault.

I had been to the buffet and had taken coins with me-the £20 note I had to purchase the ticket was zipped up in my jacket pocket inside my bag at my seat,so I did have the funds to purchase a ticket,but was prevented from gaining access to them.

 

I contacted Great Western and was told that if there were no facilities for purchasing a ticket when I got on,I was entitled to purchase one from the guard,and that if there was no guard available by the end of my journey,I could purchase one at the station where I left-they would certainly investigate but the details had to be in writing as it was a serious allegation.

 

I'm not sure how it can be argued I denied myself the opportunity to purchase-if the booking office is closed when I arrive,then there is no facility available to me.I travel to the station on the bus after work-I cannot arrive any earlier as buses in our part of the world only go once every hour or once every two hours.

[Old-CodJA]

As others have said, this is an incredibly hard to believe story.

 

The allegations you have made are very serious indeed and if true, which I make no apology for stating that I do not believe they are, but if you maintain the story is accurate then make your allegation in the correct place and go directly to the Police yourself.

 

If your story is true, you need have no fear about the fare evasion matter, so if your description of the incident is accurate, go and report it.

 

It appears that you travelled on a service with a buffet and therefore CCTV will be available on the train.

 

You are asking everyone to believe that you walked through the train, with the intention of going to the buffet car, but left your money in your jacket pocket farther down the train?????

 

You are asking everyone to believe that the Guard / Conductor 'attacked you without provocation' and maintained that attack at two different doorways on the train without any of the other passengers coming to your aid????????

 

You say that 'you found your money was missing after you left the train' and your wording suggests that you believe no-one else could have taken it but the member of rail staff. I really hope that you have strong evidence to back up that accusation, because if not you could find yourself in very deep water.

 

You say that you 'escaped' and of course CCTV covers all stations, so where you left the train and what occurred can almost certainly be confirmed.

 

As someone else pointed out:

 

i) You clearly knew the working practice at Redruth

ii) You appear to be a regular traveller and familiar with the lack of Inspectors and staff activities on these trains

iii) You failed to meet your obligation to seek out the staff to pay your fare on boarding the train IF facilities were not available before you boarded

iv) If this incident was as serious as your side of the story suggests, the Rail Company may wish to check CCTV at Redruth to see how long you were on the station before the train arrived and determine whether you could have bought a ticket. Of course, if you didn't have the means to pay that is a complete irrelevance.

v) There are no Driver Only Operated trains with buffet service

 

I think it is a fair bet that if the rail company now believe that you are a regular traveller and were travelling without means to pay and attempting to avoid a fare, they may well take action on the report that will be made by the staff on the train.

 

It is clear from your own story that you made off without payment.

 

I expect that some effort will be made to identify you and detain you in the future. It's likely that the British Transport Police will also be advised.

 

Travelling without a valid ticket or means and failing to provide your correct name and address is arrestable.

[loopinlouie]

You could still pay the ticket fair and send it in with a detailed letter of complaint to the operators head office, again stating what happened along with police report number and ask them to investigate.

[lemon_martini2]

OK let me go through your points.

 

The allegations you have made are very serious indeed and if true, which I make no apology for stating that I do not believe they are, but if you maintain the story is accurate then make your allegation in the correct place and go directly to the Police yourself.

 

I have been to the police.They told me as the incident occurred on a train,I needed to contact British Transport Police-I did this and gave a statement and received a crime log number.

 

If your story is true, you need have no fear about the fare evasion matter, so if your description of the incident is accurate, go and report it.

 

It has been reported-I have been told that in the absence of any other evidence,it is likely to be a case of my word against his and so it was unlikely to succeed in a criminal charge.I am now looking for advice on the complaint to put in to the rail company.

 

It appears that you travelled on a service with a buffet and therefore CCTV will be available on the train.

 

When the police got back in touch with me,they told me they had no CCTV evidence available-they did not state whether this was because CCTV was not on the train or whether it did not cover it-the main assault took place as I was attempting to get out of the door and so may not have been covered.They have checked CCTV at Newton Abbot station.It does not show what happened inside the train,but merely that the train arrived,stopped and after a delay,the door opened and I got out.

 

You are asking everyone to believe that you walked through the train, with the intention of going to the buffet car, but left your money in your jacket pocket farther down the train?????

 

I was in the closest carriage to the buffet(I believe it is E),about halfway along.I had enough change in my jeans pocket to buy my refreshments.The money for the ticket was zipped in my jacket pocket which was tucked in my bag.Since there were only two other passengers in our carriage and they were at the very far end,and my seat was within sight from the buffet I did not worry unduly about this.

 

You are asking everyone to believe that the Guard / Conductor 'attacked you without provocation' and maintained that attack at two different doorways on the train without any of the other passengers coming to your aid????????

 

The first alleged assault was when another passenger returned from the buffet car end and wished to get past.Once they had been let past,the guard blocked my way.As he pushed me back,he used an elbow to jam into my chest.By then,the other passenger was at the far end of the carriage and with the guard between me and him.There were no other people in our carriage.

 

On the second occasion,it happened as I was getting off. There were no other passengers in our carriage by then and so no-one else was getting on or off at the set of doors I was using.

You say that 'you found your money was missing after you left the train' and your wording suggests that you believe no-one else could have taken it but the member of rail staff. I really hope that you have strong evidence to back up that accusation, because if not you could find yourself in very deep water.

 

The money was there when I went to the buffet car. After that there were only four people who were present in our carriage at any time apart from myself-these were two passengers who were at the very far end and got off at Totnes station just after.At no time did either of them go near my seat.The passenger coming from the buffet car end went straight through without stopping anywhere.The fourth person was the guard who had come from the next carriage-at several points he was either standing next to or passing by my bag. The note was zipped in a jacket pocket,so it could not have fallen out or dropped out.

The money was there before he arrived and gone when he had left.Whilst there is no concrete evidence of him actually having taking the money,there was no other person in the vicinity of my bag who could conceivably have taken it.I had also told him during the argument that the money was in my jacket pocket.

 

I am also epileptic and the initial incident had brought on a panic attack so I had to sit down to compose myself and calm down,so I was not entirely concentrating on his movements.

 

When I was finally able to get to my bags,we were just arriving at the station.There was just time to grab them and get ready to disembark. It was only afterwards once I got to the platform,sort myself out and then get the money for the bus fare that I discovered it was missing.

 

You say that you 'escaped' and of course CCTV covers all stations, so where you left the train and what occurred can almost certainly be confirmed.

 

As someone else pointed out:

 

i) You clearly knew the working practice at Redruth

ii) You appear to be a regular traveller and familiar with the lack of Inspectors and staff activities on these trains

On previous journeys when the boarding office has been closed,I have purchased tickets on the train-sometimes there is a conductor on through Cornwall,very occasionally they will board at Plymouth and then check all tickets through Cornwall,aware that there has been no onboard check before then.I have never had a problem purchasing tickets in this manner before,other than having to explain once or twice that the booking office was closed when I boarded.

 

 

iii) You failed to meet your obligation to seek out the staff to pay your fare on boarding the train IF facilities were not available before you boarded

iv) If this incident was as serious as your side of the story suggests, the Rail Company may wish to check CCTV at Redruth to see how long you were on the station before the train arrived and determine whether you could have bought a ticket. Of course, if you didn't have the means to pay that is a complete irrelevance.

v) There are no Driver Only Operated trains with buffet service

 

I think it is a fair bet that if the rail company now believe that you are a regular traveller and were travelling without means to pay and attempting to avoid a fare, they may well take action on the report that will be made by the staff on the train.

 

It is clear from your own story that you made off without payment.

 

 

 

I expect that some effort will be made to identify you and detain you in the future. It's likely that the British Transport Police will also be advised.

 

The British Transport have been advised-when I gave the statement I stated that I was travelling without a ticket,as there were no facilities available to purchase one when I boarded-and that in this case,Great Western rules state I am allowed to travel without one and then purchase one from the guard on the train.

 

Travelling without a valid ticket or means and failing to provide your correct name and address is arrestable.

 

I had the means to purchase a ticket but I was not permitted to get access to it-furthermore the conductor told me he would refuse to sell me a ticket.I did not have a valid ticket because there were no facilities to purchase one when I was boarding.I was never asked to provide my name and address

Edited May 18, 2010 by lemon_martini2

[dx100uk]

and you are female?

 

dx

[lemon_martini2]

No I'm male

[dx100uk]

oppss!

 

dx

[lemon_martini2]

And when I said two different doorways,there is a door at each end of each coach so there are two doors right next to each other.I believe he was trying to prevent me leaving the train-as he had stated previously.

[Old-CodJA]

Thank you for commenting on some of the points I made however, I really think this is the wrong place to make the allegations that you have made.

 

You should make a formal complaint to the rail company concerned. Your original post doesn't make clear which rail company you were travelling with and if you were actually on a Crosscountry train then that's who your complaint should be addressed or GWR as appropriate.

 

Only you can determine what that complaint should consist of. You were the traveller who experienced the incident.

 

The main point is that the complaint must be a truthful account of what happened.

 

It is invariably relatively easy to disprove claims that are 'gilded' and from long experience I can say that grossly eggagerated claims always fail. Stick to exactly what happened when writing your letter.

 

I am surprised that you say the Police told you that there was no useable CCTV from the train. Whilst it may be that any imagery is inconclusive, it is important to note that the Police do not have control of CCTV on trains. The rail operator has that and the British Transport Police (BTP) would need to apply to the TOC to get it. As a matter of interest, how did you contact the BTP ?

 

It will be interesting to get answers to a couple of other points:

 

I note that you didn't address my specific point at iv)

 

If this incident was as serious as your side of the story suggests, the Rail Company may wish to check CCTV at Redruth to see how long you were on the station before the train arrived and determine whether you could have bought a ticket.

 

You state that the conductor sometimes gets on the train enroute.

 

There is a guard / conductor on these trains ALL of the time.

 

Services with a buffet car have a minimum of a Train Manager, a Senior Conductor or a Guard dependent on the company operating them and the onus of responsibility is always on the traveller to seek out staff to pay the fare if you have genuinely been unable to do so at the station.

 

The additional staff who sometimes get on and off during the journey will usually be Revenue Protection Inspectors who are making spot checks.

 

You have already made clear that the train was not busy so there is no reason not to have approached staff to pay the fare as soon as you got on.

 

You state 'furthermore the conductor told me he would refuse to sell me a ticket. '

 

Rail staff are not obliged to sell a ticket in circumstances where they genuinely believe that a fare is at risk.

 

If an Inspector / Train Manager etc believes that the traveller was attempting to avoid payment of a fare the member of staff concerned will make a written report of the matter to the rail company.

 

It is not the Police that have authority in these circumstances, it is the rail operator who makes the decision as to what action is then taken.

 

.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[RPI]

As OC points out EVERY train in Devon and Cornwall (well, every passenger train) has a guard, there are also quite a few revenue staff between Exeter and Penzance who regularly work trains, Redruth is renowned for fare evasion, I believe statisticly it is one of the worst stations in the UK along with high numbers of assaults ON STAFF.

 

I think your story is something of a jackanory and I hope you are charged with wasting police time.

[Bigredbus]

Hi,

 

I will not make any judgement on the accuracy and authenticity of the allegations exposed in this thread, although I thought I would state a few facts...

 

(a) Penalty fares do not apply from Redruth.

(b) There is full time staffing level at the station, although there is no self-service machines.

© The journey from Redruth to Newton Abbot lasts from approximately 02:15 to 02:50, depending on the service.

(d) The journey from Redruth to Plymouth lasts approximately 01:35

(e) There is a regular service serving Redruth to Newton Abbot throughout the day.

(f) The member of staff onboard the service would ask passenger, without a ticket, for both origin and destination in order to calculate the fare... hence by telling him that the origin was Redruth, the member of staff would have known that the station was a 'no penalty fare' station, and no self-service machine(s), consequently having to sell a ticket onboard the service.

(g) Knowing of the above, the FGW member of staff would have to sell a ticket...

(h) Obviously the first and most sensible legal advice is always to buy a valid train travel ticket. If you make a genuine mistake and realise you have done so once you are on the train, find a conductor as soon as possible and explain your mistake and ask to pay for a ticket. Do not wait until you arrive at your destination unless there is no conductor on the train. The onus is on you to prove that you have attempted to buy a ticket, not on the train company to prove that you do not have a valid one, so you must make every effort to buy one.

If you have forgotten to do this for any reason and been caught, or you have manufactured your own train ticket, you must seek urgent legal advice. Early discussions and explanations with the train company might avoid a prosecution; If the British Transport Police become involved it is much harder to avoid.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Bigredbus

[Old-CodJA]

(f) The member of staff onboard the service would ask passenger, without a ticket, for both origin and destination in order to calculate the fare... hence by telling him that the origin was Redruth, the member of staff would have known that the station was a 'no penalty fare' station, and no self-service machine(s), consequently having to sell a ticket onboard the service.

(g) Knowing of the above, the FGW member of staff would have to sell a ticket...

 

In the main I agree with your comments however, it is always worth remembering the fact that the actions of an RPI in these situations are not always as clear cut as (f) and (g) suggest.

 

So far as 'the FGW member of staff would have to sell a ticket' is concerned, it may be company policy to do so where there is any doubt as to whether the traveller could have paid before boarding, but there is no legal obligation on the member of staff to do so if he or she genuinely believes that an attempt to avoid that fare is evident.

 

Opportunist fare evasion is a particularly prevalent activity in that area and is well known to the train operators as RPI has noted.

 

If the member of staff was convinced that the traveller genuinely could not have bought a ticket before joining the train, then he or she should charge the appropriate fare and issue a ticket and thank the traveller before moving on.

 

If that member of staff is convinced that the traveller had clear opportunity to buy their ticket before travelling and that they intended not to pay unless challenged to do so, then he or she is not obliged to issue a ticket, but may make out a report for the rail company to take action, which may include prosecution.

 

Some TOCs may prefer the fare to be taken on a first occasion and a report noted so that a record of the pattern of offending might be established where repeats by the same traveller are evident.

 

It does not matter that Penalty Fares do not apply in the area. If there is no Penalty Fare scheme in force the report is made out on a document prepared for just such incidents and which is known as a Travel Irregularity Report (TIR) form. If the member of staff concerned is a Revenue Protection Inspector, then the report may be made as a complete witness statement ready for prosecution.

 

The Appeal Court judgement by Lord Widgery and others in the case of Corbyn referred to in many previous threads, makes the legal position clear.

 

The Lords ruled that,

 

1) any traveller who does not have a ticket and knows that a fare is due,

2) but does not pay the full fare for their intended journey before boarding where facilities were available to get a ticket and

3)who intends to pay the fare only if asked to do so,

 

does commit an offence.

 

The member of staff is not obliged to accept the traveller's explanation that a ticket office was closed without question.

 

Where possible he or she may check with train control or by calling the station concerned, or where this is not possible, may make a written report for later confirmation or prosecution as appropriate.

 

.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[borisbeaver]

Being ex-network rail, I know that all trains passing through Redruth have Train Managers - Ticket Inspectors.