Please help, claim form received on behalf of HFC

[Docman]

avarils

You can't use the 'embarrassed' defence any longer as they have supplied some documents. You will need to attack the documents that they have supplied.

Can you cover your personal details on the 'agreements' and the Default Notice' and then post them up with the 'terms & conditions' so everyone can see them and advise. If you can, I suggest posting BOTH the agreement that came back as a result of your SAR and the one that has just bee supplied. I'm a bit puzzled how HFC can come up with the 'signed' version so quickly after your request. Who are their solicitors?

[freethemice]

Check what they have sent you against the subject access request and make sure any interest rates quoted are the same as those charged on your statements. The devil is in the detail and they quite often slip up by not double checking these are correct.

Would also invest £5 in a credit check with experian which should come up with an entry like:

Account type: Loan

Started: 22/8/2002

Current balance: Settled

Repayment period: 158 over 60 months

Settled on: 19/12/2002

File updated for period to: 20/12/2002

Summary of payment history: in last 5 months, number of status 1-2 is: 2

This will let you check the default date and the date the agreement was signed is correct.

Make sure you get that letter faxed to court to extend your deadline for filing and get what documents you can scanned up here.

If they have a case it could be time for a settlement offer but let's see what they have first.

[avarils]

Okay, checking the credit refernce agency now and i'm uploading the docs they sent me, i'll also upload the docs they sent me through the subject access request, will get these done asap

[avarils]

I've uploaded the credit agreement here:

 

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu312/avarils/HFC/creditagreement.jpg

 

I've also uploaded the default notice here:

 

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu312/avarils/HFC/defaultnotice.jpg

 

I did a credit report with equifax (the first time my credit watch gold, £6.99 a month has come in use) and it looks like I was defaulted on 30th November 2009 but the default letter above is dated 2nd December 2009!

 

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu312/avarils/HFC/equifax_default_date.jpg

 

This is good news right?

Apologies for the poor quality images

 

here is a pdf copy of the credit agreement they just sent me and and default notice

 

Docman,

 

The solicitors are Weightmans.

 

I'll upload the credit agreement I was sent as part of the SAR as soon as I get home.

 

The terms and conditions that I have just received as part of this credit agreement are almost ineligible but I will post them up also.

 

Thanks for your help

hfc0001.PDF

hfc2.PDF

[Docman]

Thanks Av.

 

Just checking, but have you removed your signature from the box for the customer? Or is this how it arrived?

 

Doc

[avarils]

I removed my signature from the box as well as my name and address typed at the top and also the account number in the top right.

 

By the way the credit agreement I received as part of my SAR was a template with hand written details on for the figures. It has totally different repayment figures on it.

[Docman]

It's the signed CCA that counts. This one appears to have the prescribed terms but The Mould and others may be able to provide more info. Same for the DN. I wouldn't try the 'Christmas Day' doesn't count line either.

 

Do you still want to file a defence and then try for a 'without prejudce' settlement?

[The Mould]

Hello there avarils,

 

I will have a proper look at those doc's tommorrow.

 

Can you tell me avarils, have you ever admitted to owing this debt?

 

Also, they have doc's to support their claim, what exactly is the foundation to your argument against them, what do you intend to argue with avarils?

 

Come back, when you can.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[wish me well]

Hi there,

 

Could I just ask, how did you get the loan, did you sign in a branch or was the paperwork sent out for you to send back?

 

If its the latter, there are no cancellation rights and a court wouldnt be able to enforce. under 127 of the CCA.

 

Sorry if you have already answered this somewhere, I will just go and check.

 

KWS,WMW:)

[avarils]

Hi,

I've never admitted to owning this debt.

The reason I am in this situation now is that I asked them for a settlemet figure last year and the figure they came up with I thought was very high indeed.

 

I asked for a copy of my original agreement and they were unable to provide it.

 

Then they provided me with a template with hand written figures on it which I had never seen before.

 

They refused to talk to me about what was on the original agreement and kept refering to the hand written document.

 

The paperwork was signed in a branch in 2003.

 

If equifax are showing that the date of default was 30th November 2009, but the HFC default letter to me is dated 2nd December, then surely they have defaulted me before even writing me the letter?

 

The default letter states that I must make a payment by 26th December 2009 to avoid further action but surely if they have already defaulted me on 30th November 2009 I was never given any option?

 

Am I mis-reading this at all?

 

Sorry I should have added that if you agree that speaking to them about a settlement figure is the best option then this is what I will do.

 

I'm not trying to get out of paying what I owe and had they provided me with the documents last year I wouldn't be in this situation.

 

It also looks like they defaulted me without giving me any option to remedy the situation.

[The Mould]

Hello there avarils,

 

When you asked for a settlement figure, did you put this request in writing? If so, can you post it up please.

 

If you do not admit to this debt, why would you request a settlement figure?

 

if you are going to defend, then you need to use the credit agreement argument, you say they produced a hand written one and then they produced a poor copy of what is claimed as the original one.

 

Also, that default notice, you could argue that not enough time was given to remedy the breach, however, that will be taken as admiting to the debt and the other side might say the entry on your file was backdated.

 

You need to put them to strict proof that the default notice was delivered and challenge them on the two agreements, also, you need to find out if they intend to rely on any other documents, such as your request for a settlement to the account.

 

you need to start looking/studying the doc's, you know this case better than anyone else, so start building your defence (If you are going to defend) based on the series of events to this action and on the doc's that you can rely on for a defence.

 

please don't take this the wrong way, but if you argue about that settlement figure in court, you will loose, only the court/judge will and can decide if the credit agreement is unenforceable, if you say the agreement is flawed in your defence, then you will need to know your argument.

 

Find out where all these fugures come from, how were they calculated by the other side, challenge them to provide the calculations for the amount claimed.

 

Use the default notice in your defence, use the hand written agreement in your defence, challenge them to substantiate their claim.

 

You need your defence in by the 31st of this month, is that right?

 

OK avarils, train your brain and compile your best and strongest defence.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[avarils]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

I asked for the settlement figure by phone and not in writing.

I've been through every page of the file that I've created, including all the SAR data they sent me and I've discovered something quite interesting.

 

HFC have sent me two copies of a credit agreement that is NOT signed by me. There is a signature in the 'signed on behalf of HFC' section but it does not match the agreement that the solicitors have just sent me.

It also has a different date on it for the signature.

 

I now have an agreement which the solicitors have sent me with what seems to be my signature on it. A hand written agreement that was sent to me previously, plus now another copy of the agreement this time not signed by me.

 

Confusing but I now have three copies an agreement for this account.

 

I called Equifax (on hold for 22 minutes) and explained about the default date. The customer services lady kindly explained to me that they should not have sent that information to Equifax if the default letter is dated 2nd December. She said I should dispute it.

 

I will post up the hand written and the other copy of the credit agreement as soon as I get home this evening.

 

The Mould,

 

really appreciate the time your putting into looking into this situation, I will definately be asking them for strict proof that the default was delivered and the date that they sent the credit reference agencies the data.

 

I will also be asking why I have been sent three copies of an agreement for the same account.

 

I won't mention the settlement figure.

 

Can I do this in laymans terms without being penalised?

 

I also want to call the solicitors and make them aware of some of the details of this case. Is this a good idea and do I have to be really careful what I say assuming the calls are recorded?

 

ps. Ketsudo, the figure they are claiming is not all costs but what they claim I owe plus some costs (I think the costs are £300).

 

Thanks

 

Here is a copy of the hand written agreement (page 1), the agreement they sent me last year (page 2) which does not have my signature on it.

Page 3 is a copy of the agreement the solicitors just sent me and page 4 is the default notice again.

Please let me know what you think....

 

Thanks

File.PDF

[The Mould]

Hello there avarils,

 

Those agreements do have different dates on them, have they produced an agreement that does have your signature on it?

 

That figure on the default notice, is that figure the correct amount?

 

The date on the default notice, 2nd Dec 09 (A Tuesday I think) so if it is delivered to you on the Monday (7th) Dec, you then have 17 days to remedy if you include the 24th Dec, (18, if you include Christmas Day) however, even if the last day for posting at that time of year is the 21st or 22nd, they could still argue that they gave you enough time to remedy the breach.

 

So, they have a credit agreement, but no signature, but they will have a record of the payments made by you.

 

Can you come back to me on that default figure and also when do you need to file your defence by?

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[avarils]

Yes, that third page does have a signature on it.

 

I believe the default figure is correct.

 

The defence needs to be in on Friday this week.

 

Can you please tell me, does receiving a default notice mean they have already registered the account as defaulted or that they will register the account as a default if you do not pay the default amount off in 17 days?

 

The default notice is dated 2nd December 09.

 

Before this time, in September 09 I had did a cca request (sent special delivery with the 1 pound fee) and they provided me with the hand written notice.

 

I disputed this and a SAR with a 10 pound fee. They then came back to me a the credit agreement without my signature on. I then sent them a letter saying the account is in dispute as I did not agree with the figures. I asked for a signed copy of the agreement.

 

The next thing that happens is I receive the claim form (I did not receive the default notice).

 

So the default letter is dated 2nd December 2009. Equifax are saying the default was registered with them on 29th November 2009.

[The Mould]

OK avarils,

 

I see now, you have put a piece of paper over your signature.

 

They have a signed agreement, and the default notice is valid.

 

That settlement figure offer, how much was the figure that they would accept?

 

These creditors can send a notice to the credit reference agencies on a 48hr notice or every 2 weeks or 4 or every 6 or every 2 months, they can back date the entries.

 

I think that you will struggle if you use the default argument, date of entry, date of default notice.

 

I really do not like these creditors avarils and I wish I could say something positive for you to use, but I think that the time has come for you to accept that they will win their case.

 

Do you think that you can negotiate a settlement with them, ask them if they would be willing to consider this as an option instead of court action.

 

If you are still there avarils, come back, Roger.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

 

PS. avarils, can you please tell me what is the main/central point to your defence as far as you are concerened?

 

avarils, how much do you agree with on their figures?

 

Are you in a good position to offer a settlement payment?

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[dx100uk]

no pppi i see, but what about unlawful charges?

 

that would make the default notice invalid surely?

 

dx

[The Mould]

OK avarils,

 

Can you challenge them on the figures?

 

That default notice, you could argue that they defaulted you on the account and then provided you with a default notice 8 days later giving you no opportunity to remedy the breach.

 

Have a good look at the terms and conditions of your agreement and see if there is a clause permitting them to inform credit reference agencies if you default or if the account goes into arrears.

 

Double check the figures on your default notice against your account statements.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[avarils]

doint this now...

[avarils]

I think I will call and speak to them about a settlement figure. I certainly can't afford to pay the total amount outstanding but I'll see what they will accept.

I would have liked to have had a reasonable defence before doing this as at the moment they have all the cards in their hands.

My main/central point to my defence is that I did repeatedly ask for a signed copy of my credit agreement and they failed to provide it. Instead they provided me with unenforceable agreements.

Only now that it has come to court action they have managed to provide it.

Can I ask, do they need to provide a more eligible copy? Do they need to have the original as what they have given me now is a poor copy which seems to be an electronic copy they have printed off from their systems?

Can I use the fact that they provided me with a different credit agreement (the hand written one) when I originally asked for it? Then instead of providing me with an actual enforceable copy, they simply started court proceedings? Surely they should have sent it to me as per my request to them as soon as they found it?

dx100uk,

The original loan amount was 6605.40. This was made up of 3585.00 loan and 3020.40 interest.

I have paid off 4175.45 leaving 2429.95 outstanding.

Onto this 2429.95 they have added a £50 default fee, plus £75 court fee plus £80 solicitors costs making the total on the claim form : £2634.95

The Mould,

The terms and conditions are quite difficult to read but I'm going to try to decipher them in the next hour.

[The Mould]

I think I will call and speak to them about a settlement figure. I certainly can't afford to pay the total amount outstanding but I'll see what they will accept.

Avarils, if you speak with them today, see what their reaction is if you were to politely challenge them on that default notice, state to them that their client had already defaulted you a full 8 days before you received the default notice, meaning you had no opportunity to remedy the breach.

State to them, standard industry practice in processing your personal data to credit reference agencies claiming that you have defaulted on the account will not suffice as an excuse for your client to use regarding their failure to comply with legislation contained in the CCA 1974 in relation to following the required proceedures of the said act as far as issuing default notices are concerened, they must issue the default notice first and if you fail to remedy the breach then and only then can they take the next step, which is processing your personal data to the credit reference agencies and commencing with action against you.

I would have liked to have had a reasonable defence before doing this as at the moment they have all the cards in their hands.

 

My main/central point to my defence is that I did repeatedly ask for a signed copy of my credit agreement and they failed to provide it. Instead they provided me with unenforceable agreements.

 

Only now that it has come to court action they have managed to provide it.

This is where they can provide the document to have it enforced, can you see if there are any differences between the agreements, the date is one difference, what about their signature, is that the same on the agreements? or is it signed by someone else from their company?

Can I ask, do they need to provide a more eligible copy? Do they need to have the original as what they have given me now is a poor copy which seems to be an electronic copy they have printed off from their systems?

See if you can challenged the reconstructed agreement, is it accurate against the original?

Can I use the fact that they provided me with a different credit agreement (the hand written one) when I originally asked for it? Then instead of providing me with an actual enforceable copy, they simply started court proceedings? Surely they should have sent it to me as per my request to them as soon as they found it?

I think the problem is avarils, that in court they can provide the document that proves their claim.

dx100uk,

 

The original loan amount was 6605.40. This was made up of 3585.00 loan and 3020.40 interest.

 

I have paid off 4175.45 leaving 2429.95 outstanding.

 

Onto this 2429.95 they have added a £50 default fee, plus £75 court fee plus £80 solicitors costs making the total on the claim form : £2634.95

 

The Mould,

 

The terms and conditions are quite difficult to read but I'm going to try to decipher them in the next hour.

 

OK avarils,

See what you think of that, see what you can do.

Kind Regards

The Mould

[avarils]

The Mould,

This is brilliant! I will do as above.

 

you wrote:

Have a good look at the terms and conditions of your agreement and see if there is a clause permitting them to inform credit reference agencies if you default or if the account goes into arrears.""

 

I have looked through the terms and conditions and cannot see anywhere where they state they will inform a credit reference agency if I default or go into arrears.

[The Mould]

OK avarils,

 

Good work, give them a call and see if you can change their mind on the course of action that they are taking.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

 

Avarils,

 

I am going off-line for a short while, I will leave my computer switched on to see if there are any emails from CAG, i Will catch up with you shortly.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[avarils]

Spoken to the sols.

 

I told them:

 

It appears I have been defaulted eight days before I was supposed to receive the default notice (which I did not receive) so I never had any opportunity to remedy the breach.

 

I told them that I now have three different versions of a credit agreement. One is hand written and the repayment figures are different to the other two.

 

One is signed by an employee of HFC but not me.

 

The third is signed by a different person from HFC but this agreement does appear to have a signature in the customer box. I also mentioned that both this agreement and the terms and conditions are almost ineligible.

 

I also stated that from what I can make out, nowhere in the terms and conditions does it state they will inform a credit reference agency if I default or go into arrears. They have clearly been doing this over the last few months and have also registered a default on 28th November 2009.

 

I stated that as HFC were unable to provide me with a signed copy of my credit agreement I sent a recorded delivery letter stating the account was in dispute. The next correspondence was the claim form from the court.

 

She said she would review the file based on what I have said and get back to me this afternoon...

 

I'm going to still prepare a defence and post it up before submitting to the court online.

 

If the sols ask for any of the credit agreements I have refered to (the three different copies) is it safe for me to send them pdf copies of them? I suppose it may help my case if they are aware of some of the things that have gone on and may just stop this ending up infront of a judge?

 

Sols have now come back to me and asked for a copy of my defence plus the documents I have refered to. They will then forward onto HFC and await a response.

I'll prepare one the best I can, send it to the court then send a copy to weightmans.

 

Thanks for all your help everyone, especially The Mould!!!

[wish me well]

Hi there

 

Right I dont know whether you have spotted already but on the POC they are relying on the written agreement, ok, this quotes an APR of 16.9% BUT on the other two typed agreements it states 31% APR.

 

My question, which interest rate was applied to the loan????? I cant tell you but you need to find out.

 

I will come back after I have looked a little deeper for you

 

You see they only have one agreement signed by you which is not the written agreement.

 

The agreement they are taking court action with is not the same agreement which you allegedly signed now is it?!!

 

I hope I have found something which you could use to your advantage, I will keep looking:)

 

The interest on that loan seems extremely high to me, I am not sure how to work out the interest that should have been applied but you really need to get it checked.

 

If this is wrong the agreement is unenforceable!

 

I hope someone who knows more on APR can double check for you. In my humble opinion, I think its wrong but like I said I dont know how to work this out for you, sorry but at least I may have brought it to the attention of someone in the know!

 

I have just spotted something else.

 

On the written agreement it says the term is 120 months but on the other two it says 60 months????

[dx100uk]

oppss!!!

 

quick keep sending him diff agreements...he might fall for it......

 

cut 'n' paste that sig too!

 

dx