Rossendale Bailiffs, Council tax, and Partner Unemployed

[Oscarxmas69]

Hi, Wondered if anyone can help. My partner racked up about a £2.5k worth of council tax and then he became unemployed about 2 yrs ago, so agreed to pay arrears at £50 per month. This has been transferred by myself out of my account every month since end of last year. I am now living with him and he is still unemployed, but I am working full time so he cannot claim any benefit. Today out of the blue, we've had a hand delivered letter from Rossendale bailiffs for the council tax asking for £150 upfront to be able to setup a payment plan? As far as I was concerned we were paying the council installments? Plus, isn't he classed as vulnerable and should revert back to council being unemployed, or does that not count with me working full time? Would really like some advice on what to do next. Been reading various threads, but cannot see anything directly related to my problem.

[comebackjimmy]

hi and sorry to hear of your troubles.

 

You say the bailiffs came out of the blue. The normal process is that the council write to you advising they are going to court. They then do so and subsequently you receive a letter from the court requiring payment. Following that if you take no action a firm of bailiffs is then hired to try and get the money from you.

 

Theoretically you should have gone through this process and therefore received several letters at different stages. Could you say whether you have had these letters and if so when?

 

If not and you have agreed a repayment plan with the council did you make a written offer to them and did you get a written agreement to your offer from them?

 

If, as you say the bailiff came out of the blue and you can prove you are making regular payments subject to an agreement you have previously entered into then you should write to the council (recorded delivery) and point this out, copying to the bailiff.

 

Not withstanding the previous paper chain you are under no legal obligation to deal with the bailiff, only to pay your tax as you are doing. You can therefore write to the council telling them you will not deal with the bailiff and remind them of your payment record by stating the dates and amounts of the payments you have made. Ask them to take back the account.

 

In theory (again!) the bailiff will make a maximum of two visits and then return the case back to the council.

 

Also, take a note of the bailiffs details on the letter and check with the ministry of justice if the bailiff is registered to work with the company he is representing. If he is not registered he is not legally allowed to collect the debt.

 

If you encounter him at the door or on your property:

 

1. Do not let him in.

2. Sign nothing.

3. Obtain his ID and either copy it if you have a scanner, or take a photograph of it using a digital camera or phone.

4. Take a picture of him to ensure the ID is him and not some low life spear carrier along to help out.

 

Easier said than done but the companies have contracts with the council and it is possible they are breaching the terms by not sending properly registered or the correct people to collect.

 

It may make you feel better to stand up to them and do something positive. They may well be aggressive and this gives you something to fight back with.

 

Should you find out they are not legally allowed to collect the debt you can complain to the council, the council ombudsman and others.

 

Good luck and hang around a bit for some other CAGers to reply.

[RaeUK]

Hi oscarxmas69,

You would have thought your partner is eligible for the vulnerable category being unemployed. However...

 

Department for Constitutional Affairs - Enforcement - National Standards for Enforcement Agents

 

Those who might be considered vulnerable include the following:

the elderly;

people with a disability;

the seriously ill;

the recently bereaved;

single parent families;

pregnant women;

unemployed people; and,

those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or reading English.

 

 

... the key word is 'might'. Obviously, with you working full time then your partner is not as vulnerable as an unemployed person existing solely on benefits. The Standards apply to the household. Are there any other things that may be of use? Just curious...

Best wishes

Rae.

[Oscarxmas69]

Hi,

 

I seem to remember receiving one letter in between now and Dec and also the usual sort of bill for the £2.5k has arrived recently, but don't remember seeing anything about going to court for bailiffs? But there was something regarding courts/bailiffs mid last year, which is why I phoned and agreed £50 monthly payments. Sorry I can't be more specific.

 

Unfortunately got nothing in writing, as was all done over the phone the agreement. So can't prove anything apart from making the £50 payments each month we've made since.....

 

Will phone counciil this lunch time (will def not phone the bailiffs though - know that from other threads) and see what they say about the payments we've been making and also my partner being unemployed and being vulnerable. See if they'll take the amount back with an agreed payment plan. If they wont accept over the phone, would you still advise writing to the council pointing out the agreement and payment dates and asking in writing. Or would you advise writing to the bailiffs instead at this point and making an offer of a payment plan to them (have seen template letter on here for making an offer and saving the money if they don't accept).

 

Would just like to get away from the bailiffs, as having to keep windows/doors locked is a nightmare..... Do you know if they can come in through an open upstairs window? And also, can they just walk through an unlocked door? Or is is just an open door? Does it matter if the bailiffs know you're inside the house (in other words, do we have to keep the curtains closed and TV turned down low in case they come) or does it not matter if they know you're in there. And lastly, do they usually call at weekends? Just got my parents coming on Sun, who don't know about this and will be embarassing to shuffle them in, lock the door without any explanation.... or if the bailiffs call whilst they're there.

 

And how would I check with the Ministry of Justice if bailiff if registered to work with the company...

 

Many thanks for all your help...

[hallowitch]

can i ask did you move in with him or did he move in with you

 

 

yes they can enter through an open upstairs window

 

as your partner is unemployed (do you receive any tax credits ect for being a couple) and has no income i would suggest that you write to the council and make an offer of x amount per month

offer less than you can afford that way you wont default make them aware that this offer will increase if he gets a job

make them aware that this debt is from before you got together therefore you are not reasonable for it but as a gesture of goodwill(because he has no income) you will make payments until he has a job also tell them that you only want to pay this by standing order as this will stop any defaults on his account

[Oscarxmas69]

Hi, I moved in with him end of last year. He'd already accumulated majority of this council tax bill before then...

 

Have just spoke to the Council Tax office on the phone, spoke to a clerk first and then asked to speak to supervisor. Said they would not take it back off the bailiffs. Despite speaking to someone end of last year and them telling me just to pay £50 a month, they're denying all knowledge of this, and said agreement was for £40 a week, which we definately did not agree. Did income and expenditure over phone and came to £60 a week, plus paying this years council tax which works out about £350.00 a month? Which we definately can't afford. Was looking more to £50 off arrears a month and then paying this years council tax as normal at agreed dates....would get less if he was on JSA and living on own. Said the £60 would be paid direct to bailiffs anyway and said they would contact to ask if this was ok. I said not to, and said this was unreasonable and I would contact the bailiffs if necessary. Said since we were living together I was accountable for this debt as well and had to take my income into account, even though it's not mine and he's not working?!?

 

Really fed up now, and don't know what to do. Should I leave him as don't see why I should be paying this amount out my wage each month. Should I contact the bailiffs offering £50 a month....

 

If anyone could please advise...

 

Leave work at 4pm, so will not be able to pick up any messages till Monday after that... so if people can reply before then?

 

And if sending letters, if anyone could post a template for that letter, as at work and very difficult for me to find time to sit and write one out...

 

Again, thanks for all your help...

[Oscarxmas69]

Oh and also, did recently just look into tax credits, but would only receive about £140 a year due to some odd couple of weeks of temp work he did last year.... but still gonna look into applying...

[hallowitch]

Said since we were living together I was accountable for this debt as well and had to take my income into account, even though it's not mine and he's not working?!?

 

 

this is simply not true you are not responsible for his debt that was accrued before you met him

 

the council have no right to touch your income its yours not his

 

in reality this debt should have been sent back to the council as he has no income and no goods to levy (assets to cover all bailiffs fees levy fee.removal auction fees storage fees ect) it should be sent back as. nulla bona (no goods to levy no income)

 

send a formal complaint to the head of revenues and make him an offer of payment make it clear that this is only until he gets a job

 

at the end of the day there next move could only be committal to prison and they can only do this if he wilfully refuses to pay which he is not as you are offering to help him out until he is working

[Oscarxmas69]

Thanks ever so much for your post Hallowitch. And I appreciate your busy.. but is there anyway you could knock up a template letter I could just copy and paste to say the above, as I'm no good with words... plus at work so difficult for me sit and write one. And would like to get this sent tonight, recorded post..... Should I send a copy to the bailiffs as well? ...

[Oscarxmas69]

Should it also mention supervisors name as well (who I spoke to).... I'm really no good at this sort of thing.... sorry....

[Oscarxmas69]

Oh and just to make it clear, she said she had to take in the whole household income when working out how much each week he/we needed to pay back towards the arrears....

[hallowitch]

not great with letters but I'm sure kelcou would be happy to help here

so together I'm sure we could put something together before you leave work

[Oscarxmas69]

That would be brilliant - thank you ever so much..... leave work at 4pm...

 

Big cyber hug.....

[fluffy_bunny]

which council is this?

[comebackjimmy]

Hi

 

In my view you should assert that you are not on any account dealing with the bailiffs, only with the council. You have done an income and expenditure sheet and appear to be able to afford £60 per week. (However, I would not be comfortable going over such a sheet with any creditor as they may be tempted to lead you down a path that priorities their debt to the detriment of your other expenses).

 

It is unfortunate that you have conducted this business over the phone as there is no record of what was agreed and they can deny it again as they have done with your previous agreement.

 

If it was me I would write to them telling them you will on no account deal with the bailiff, only themselves and that you will stick to your regular payment of £50 that was previously agreed. I would also challenge their use of the bailiff and ask them for copies of all correspondence they have sent your partner regarding the account, just to see what went on.

 

I would put a the following sentence in: "I am not challenging the amount of the tax and I am not refusing to pay it".

 

I would further point out that as far as you are concerned you have already agreed with the council and it is they that are breaking that agreement. Unless they resume the original agreement you will make a complaint to the Council Ombudsman (they do not like that at all!).

 

Some other points:

 

1. Your bill is for £2.5K? Does that include the arrears or just one year? It seems very high for one year unless you live in an enormous property. You should consider if you are in the correct council tax band. It is possible you could get it re-banded. If this was successful the council could end up owing you for all the past over payments on the property.

 

2.It does not matter if the Bailiffs know you are there. Just don't let them in or sign anything. Yes they can come in via open windows upstairs as well.

 

3. I do not know what the law says about weekends but I don't think they are allowed after dark. Maybe some other CAGers can clarify that one.

 

4. Whilst it may be embarrassing, consider telling your parents. After all it was not your fault and you are in no worse a position than many other people. that way you do not have to flinch or worry every time the door goes when they are visiting.

 

5. This link takes you to a CAG thread about checking Certificated Bailliffs

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/210956-line-search-check-if-3.html

 

and it has the following in it:

 

Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs on 020 3334 6355

[Oscarxmas69]

Hi Fluffy Bunny - Council is Wakefield Metropolitan District Council

[hallowitch]

when did you move in with him did you start making these payment after you moved in who are you paying

was he paying anything before you moved in with him who was he paying

[Oscarxmas69]

Just checked and can't see the bailiffs name on the list? It's "Maltas" from Rossendales. And the first name is written but can't make it out?... Does this matter?....

[Oscarxmas69]

Hi, to be honest, no he wasn't really paying anything until I moved in. When I moved in end of last year, must have been about Aug/Sep 09, we agreed over phone with council to pay £50 a month. They say this is down as £40 a week on system....

[Oscarxmas69]

And all payments were sent manually through my bank to the council's account themselves....

[Oscarxmas69]

Sorry - forgot to say thanks Jimmy for your advice as well...

 

And Hallowitch, did you manage to get hold of Kelcou about writing a letter for me?.... I'm sorry if I'm going on... just bit stressed with all this, but really appreciate your help....

[hallowitch]

council tax reference number xxxxxx

Mr xxxxx

address

date

 

dear sir

 

Mr xxxxxx is my partner after moving in with him it was brought to my attention that he has outstanding council tax arrears

 

MR xxxxxx is unemployed on moving in with him his benefit was stopped the law says as i am employed i am liable to support him as we are a couple

I am however aware that i am not reasonable for council tax debts accrued by him before we moved in together

 

After discussing this debt with my now partner i decided to make an arrangement with xxxx council to pay this debt at £50 per month

 

This payment was agreed during a phone call to yourselves and payments have been and maintained

 

On the 22nd august a bailiff from rossendales MR xxxx who does not appear on the ministry of justice certificated bailiffs web site called demanding payment for this debt or he would remove goods

Most goods of any value were brought with me when i moved in with MRxxxx i understand that the bailiff cant remove my goods for his debt a statutory declaration can be supplied to confirm what goods belong to me if necessary

 

i phoned xxx council as i couldn't understand why a bailiff would call for a debt that was being paid I spoke to Mrs xxxx who informed me that i should have been paying £40 per week according to the records on her screen

I did not enter into a weekly payment agreement of £40 and I'm sure the telephone conversation will have to been recorded and can be checked to confirm this

MRS xxxx also maintains that i am responsible for my partners council tax that was accrued before we met which i know not to be the the case

 

I offered to maintain payments at £50 per month which is an amount i can reasonably afford and allow me to pay my council tax liability for this year without defaulting

this was refused and a payment of £60 per week is expected from me an amount i have not agreed to

This is not my debt and i will not agree to a payment plan for someone else's debt that will be detrimental to my self as i have my own debts to pay and am now also liable for this years council tax

i am however quite willing to continue paying MRxxxx council tax arrears at £50 per month until he has employment

 

As Mr xxx has no assets and no income i hope that the agreement of £50 month that was agreed to can be reinstated as i can see no way forward if it not reinstated

 

yours with thanks

 

 

 

as i said not great at writing letters but it gives you the bones of it that someone can tweak

I would suggest you both sign it (so they cant hit you with data protection )

 

It must be sent recorded delivery and keep your receipt

[Oscarxmas69]

Thank you ever so ever so much.... will keep you updated....

 

Should I send a copy to the bailiffs as well, or just to the council do you think?

[Oscarxmas69]

And sorry, would I put my name at the top with the address since I'm the one writing the letter, or my partners name with the address, since the debt and baliffs letter is addressed to him.....

 

I'll get there in the end....

[hallowitch]

Thank you ever so ever so much.... will keep you updated....

 

Should I send a copy to the bailiffs as well, or just to the council do you think?

 

 

find out who the chief executive is and sent it to them

 

keep all your doors locked and windows closed until its dealt with by the council

 

if they tell you to pay they bailiffs refuse unless rossendales are prepared to set up a standing order and there will no cost to you to make payments to them