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    • Household budgets have come under pressure as prices soared in the wake of the pandemic.View the full article
    • Please see my witness statement below.  Please let me know what modifications I need to apply.  I haven't included anything related to "administrative charge while paying by credit or debit card" as I wasn't sure if I should include since sign says "it may apply"   Background  1.1 Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of November 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.    Contract  2.1 No Locus Standi, I do not believe a contract exists with the landowner that gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” From PoFA (Protection of Freedoms Act) 2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-  (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or  (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44  For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.    Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed  3.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.  3.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.  3.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.  3.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.    Unfair PCN  4.1         As stipulated in Exhibit 1 (Pages 7-13) sent by DCB Legal following the defendant’s CPR request the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows £60.00 parking charge notice and will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue. The defendant puts it to the claimant a request for strict proof when the signage changed to show £100.00 parking charge as the evidence provided by DCB Legal stipulated £60.00 parking charge was indeed the parking charge at the time defendant parked and included in Exhibit 1   4.3        The Claimant did not respect PAPLOC   4.4        It is also unfair to delay litigation for so long and claim nearly four years' interest.    No Keeper Liability  5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.  5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.    5.3        The claimant did not mention parking period instead only mentioned time 20:25 which is not sufficient to qualify as a parking period.   Protection of Freedoms Act 2012  The notice must -  (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;      No Breach of Contract  6.1      No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY.  6.2        The wording “Electric Bay Abuse” is not listed on their signs nor there is any mention on the contract of any electric charging points at all let alone who can park there or use them.    Double Recovery  7.1        As well as the original £100 parking charge and £50 allowed court/legal costs, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  7.2        PoFA Schedule 4, paragraph 4(5) states that “the maximum sum which may be recovered from the keeper is the amount specified in the notice to keeper”. Which in this case is £100.  7.3        The Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019 is also quite clear that the maximum amount recoverable is £100.  Government ministers and government web pages explaining the Act refer to extra charges as "a rip off".  7.4        Unless the Claimant can clearly demonstrate how these alleged additional costs have been incurred this would appear to be an attempt at double recovery.  7.5        Previous parking charge cases have found that the parking charge itself is at a level to include the costs of recovery i.e. Parking Eye Ltd vs Beavis (2015) UKSC 67 which is the authority for recovery of the parking charge itself and no more, since the sum £85 was held to already incorporate the costs of an automated private parking business model and the Supreme Court Judges held that a parking firm not in possession cannot plead any part of their case in damages. It is indisputable that an alleged “parking charge” penalty is a sum which the Supreme Court found is already inflated to more than comfortably cover all costs. The case provides a finding of fact by way of precedent, that the £85 (or up to a Trade Body ceiling of £100 depending on the parking firm) covers the costs of all the letters. Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court V Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practise continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (...) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6        In Claim numbers F0DP806M and F0DP201T, Britannia vs Crosby the courts went further in a landmark judgement in November 2019 which followed several parking charge claims being struck out in the area overseen by His Honour Judge Iain Hamilton-Douglas Hughes GC, the Designated Civil Judge for Dorset, Hampshire, Isle of Wight & Wiltshire. District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgement or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating “It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverable under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgement in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for a addi8onal sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998.  7.7        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.  7.8        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).  7.9        The Defendant is of the view that the Claimant knew, or should have known, that to claim in excess of £100 for a parking charge on private lands is disallowed under the CPRs, the Beavis case, the PoFA AND THE CRA 2015, and that relief from sanctions should be refused.    In Conclusion  8.1        I believe the Claimant has got use to intimidation tactics and has got greedy. I believe the truth of the manor is the Claimant has used bullying tactics successfully for too long and is therefore assured that innocent drivers will fall into the trap of paying rather than going through the hours it takes to defend themselves. In the process, wasting the time of the Court, the time of the Defendant and everyone else who has advised the Defendant, out of sheer decency to help have a fair hearing and see justice delivered.  8.2        I am still in disbelief that I am being heard in this court, defending myself nearly 4 years after receiving a charge through my door. I have had to spend weeks’ worth of my life studying the letter of the law in order to defend myself from this ridiculous attempt at a swindle.  8.3        I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. 
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    • honestly he/she just makes these ppc look so stupid everytime   fairplay lfi
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CL Finance - Full and Final ?


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Hi,

 

I have a debt to HSBC (a cobbled together o/d and loan) that has since been sold to CL finance. The total is just over £15000.

 

I pay CL finance a few pounds every month. This has been going on for some time (in fact the default has fallen off my credit file) and as I am now trying to get to the stage of being completely debt free I was considering a full and final offer.

 

I have seen various numbers bandied about but was wondering what the group thought a good opening gambit - 10%?

 

Cheers

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Wait a minute! Are you saying that they have grouped together the OD and the Loan??

 

If so, this is completely wrong as they come under different sections of the CCA, you need to tell them that these debts are TWO separate debts, and not one!

 

If they refuse to treat them as two individual debts then you need to, in the first instance raise a formal complaint with which ever cowboy has decided to group them together (HSBC or CL) and if they don't then they need to be reported to the FOS to investigate..

  • Haha 1

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Wait a minute! Are you saying that they have grouped together the OD and the Loan??

 

If so, this is completely wrong as they come under different sections of the CCA, you need to tell them that these debts are TWO separate debts, and not one!

 

If they refuse to treat them as two individual debts then you need to, in the first instance raise a formal complaint with which ever cowboy has decided to group them together (HSBC or CL) and if they don't then they need to be reported to the FOS to investigate..

 

Yep.... this would count as an unlawful assignment by the original creditor. I raised a similar issue with Moorcroft years ago when 3 of my accounts were amalgamated and sold. CCA them before you start thinking about giving them settlement money.8)

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Wait a minute! Are you saying that they have grouped together the OD and the Loan??

 

Yes, they did.

 

This was back in 2003 / 04 when I had a load of issues going on and my head wedged firmly ..... in the sand. I have no paperwork from then.

 

It was definitely HSBC (First Direct) that merged the two.

 

Should I CCA HSBC or CL Finance?

 

Thank you.

Edited by The Cappuccino Kid
clarity
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Send the CCA to whoever is currently chasing you for payment. Enclose a Postal Order for the £1 fee (not a cheque) and don't use your normal sig.... just print a "sig" instead.

 

Send by rec. delivery and wait. Do not speak to anyone on the 'phone if they try and insist upon all communication in writing.

 

:)

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Morning.

 

I just want to check that I'm doing the correct thing here.

 

Background; I had an overdraft and a loan with First Direct. I ran into problems and they closed both and amalgamated them. I'm afraid that I no longer have any paperwork from then.

 

I do have some scans of letters from DG Solicitors and Metropolitan, both of whom were using my old current acount number as a reference, but the total of the loan plus overdraft so I have no doubt that the two were merged.

 

After some negotiation I have been paying a smallish amount every month and the debt was sold to CL Finance a couple of years ago. The default has now dropped off my credit file.

 

So that is why I was considering a F & F. But from what I'm reading First Direct have been a bit naughty by merging the two. So I should CCA CL Finance? I do want to preserve my improving credit history so carry on paying them at the moment?

 

Thanks for any and all advice.

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yes cca cl finance and keep paying for the time being.

 

HSBC have done the same to someone else I know. They combined a managed loan and overdraft and then sold it on as a single debt. They then claim it is one debt and just for an od so they can try and wriggle out of complying with the cca request.

I SAR'd hsbc and got the info i needed to prove it was two debts.

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Is there a chance that First Direct effectively offset the CC debt against the current account? It may be they were allowed to do this.

 

However, whether they are allowed to do it in a way which increases an overdraft is questionable - doesn't sound fair to me - but if they were permitted to do this (would be in the T&Cs), it would get them out of the CCA issue.

 

Look forward to getting to the bottom of this one!

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yes cca cl finance and keep paying for the time being.

 

HSBC have done the same to someone else I know. They combined a managed loan and overdraft and then sold it on as a single debt. They then claim it is one debt and just for an od so they can try and wriggle out of complying with the cca request.

I SAR'd hsbc and got the info i needed to prove it was two debts.

 

 

Similar scenario with Moorcroft. The original creditors were even kind enough to include a final copy of the bank statement in the SAR paperwork which showed a teeny tiny overdraft balance before 3 accounts were flogged out and amalgamated as one. The CCA request only returned a current account application form.... nothing else. Well they couldn't, could they? ;)

 

Stupid bergers... :D

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Just to check, the loan will be covered under s77 of the CCA and the overdraft is not covered. Is that correct? So my letter should make the request under s77?

 

Thanks

 

Yes.... s.77 for the loan. :)

 

Make sure it goes off by rec. delivery, enclose a PO for the £1 fee (not a cheque) and don't use a normal signature.... just initial or print.

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter

Edited by PriorityOne
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Overdrafts are covered by the CCA but have a sec.5 exemption, don't ask me what that means, I just know that there was a very long thread on here a while ago where it was discussed at great length, but do you think I can find it now!:rolleyes:

Edited by Bazooka Boo
Non alcohol induced typo!

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Overdrafts are covered by the CCA but have a sec.5 exemption, don't ask me what that means, I just know that there was a very long thread on here a while ago where it was discussed at great length, but do you think I can find it now!:rolleyes:

 

Much harder to prove... CCA sec. 74 if I remember rightly BB

 

:)

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Ta da! I knew if I looked for it hard enough, I'd find everything but what I was looking for!

Here you go PO, some light reading for you:D

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/237096-overdrafts-covered-ccas.html

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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I wouldn't SAR anybody unless/until they produce an enforceable CCA for you because the £15k remains an unforceable debt until that time.... and is way beyond anything you could hope to reclaim back in charges.... ;)

 

Hi, the reason I was wondering about the SAR was to establish how the amount was made up. I know that most of it was a personal loan, some of it was overdraft and possibly some of it was credit card too. I honestly can't remember; it was during "head in sand" times. It was defintely First Direct that lumped the whole lot together.

 

Cheers

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Letter sent BB.

 

Should I stop payment? I'm a bit concerned that this is now off my credit file and I don't want to trash it again. Mind you, that's probably what they rely on !

Edited by The Cappuccino Kid
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Yes stop payments to them.

 

Having just read your last post, you say that you think it is a combination of a Loan, Overdraft and possibly CC?

 

Are they asking for each separate amount or are they asking for one figure, which could be them having amalgamated all two/three amounts together?

 

If they have lumped them all together then this is unlawful as each debt is a separate debt and comes under different parts of the Credit Act.

 

If they have done this then they need to be told to separate each account as they are treated differently, and get a copy of their complaints procedure aswell as complaining to the FOS.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Having just read your last post, you say that you think it is a combination of a Loan, Overdraft and possibly CC?

 

Are they asking for each separate amount or are they asking for one figure, which could be them having amalgamated all two/three amounts together?

 

It is definitely a combination. They were amalgamated by First Direct and then I went through Metropolitan etc before the debt was flogged to CL Finance about 3 years ago.

 

If they have done this then they need to be told to separate each account as they are treated differently, and get a copy of their complaints procedure aswell as complaining to the FOS.

 

Should I be complaining to First Direct or CL Finance? I think it might be worth a tenner to send a SAR to First Direct as I assume the result would show the amalgamation of the debt.

 

Cheers

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