Bailiff for Business Rates help please!

[tink74]

Hi my fiend reccomended I come here.I'm hoping someone may be able to help me?

 

I run a small pet shop and the business has been really struggling. This is my first year of business. I messed up and didnt pay my business rates for last year. The council sent me a couple of letters but it went to the flat above who has the same number as my shop but my shop is A on the end. I got a letter from a bailiff last week saying i owed 425.00. I was going to call to sort it out but had a close family bereavement so have been caught up with that.

 

Today my fiancee rang to say the bailiff was there and was going to take everything. I spoke to him and explained why i hadnt called and asked if he could give me until Tuesday as I needed to go to the council to ask about small business relief. he said it was too late for that, he debt was now at 1110.40 and unless he had 277.00 within the next 20 minutes and agreement for a paymanet plan he would start removing things from the shop.

 

I couldnt afford 277 so he agreed to take 200. i paid the money and agreed 80.00 per month over the phone. I can afford this so am ok with the monthyl payments but he said he would do it only if i gave permission for my fiance to sign the posession agreement so i did.

 

the bailiff has listed all of the products and shelving including little platic baskets but not the freezer which i thought was odd but not moaning about.

 

i have a couple of questions:

 

firstly the agreement says if i dont pay he will come and take everything on the list so I dont see how i can now sell them to customers?

 

also the charges, the council confirmed the outstanding balance as 1001.00. he has added 24.50 first visit fee, 18.00 second visit 54.00 levy charge 12.00 walking posession fee and 24.50 admin fee.

 

Is this right? how can i sell my products to make money if he now posses them?

 

im so confused

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Hello Tink,

 

1) Count yourself lucky The £80 a month is unusually reasonable for business rates so i (personaly) wouldn't 'rock the boat' on this one until it's paid off.

 

2) The charges are (unusually) correct other than the £24.50 admin fee. I would wait until the very end of your arrangement to challenge this and I'm sure it will disappear. They know they are trying it on.

 

3) As for selling the stock - WOW! that IS a question. I've never thought of that before, and believe me I've done a lot of thinking on this subject!!

 

Technically you are correct. The stock now belongs to the bailiff and it is a criminal offense to sell it. However, this situation will have applied to any business that has been subject to a levy, all of whom carry on trading as normal. Indeed the bailiff wants you to carry on trading - he wants the money, not your stock.

 

You obviously need to carry on trading by selling the stock, and i've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for doing that - so get on with it!

 

The technicality you have thrown up is VERY interesting, i hope someone on here has got the answer or I'm going to have to research this until i find out.

 

Just remember to pay early , preferably by card, and get a receipt (online) or transaction number (over the phone). This is important because if you are 1 day late they will turn up with a van and charge you hundreds of pounds!!

 

If you send cheques they might mysteriously not get cashed in time and the van could turn up!

 

You've been treated OK as it goes.

 

Good luck with your business.

[Fair&Balanced]

A common strategy which is commonplace amongst bailiffs is that although they have taken possession of the goods they allow the business to trade so long as they are replaced. This is clearly what the Bailiff has done. You must keep to your replacement schedule to ensure the Bailiff doesnt return and seize the goods for sale at an auction.On the fee scale I would question the 2nd visit fee if he only attended once.On the subject of the commercial refrigerator/ freezer, they sell for very little and if they fail to sell at auction the Bailiff will have to pay for the disposal fee, as it is hazardous to the environment.

[Fair&Balanced]

Where distress is levied upon a trading business, the stock and materials seized under a walking possession agreement, must be sold by the firm. Technically if the business sold the goods they would breach the walking possession agreement, and to allow it would be "abandonment2 by the bailiff.The normal solution is to allow the the trader to sell the seized goods as long as they are replaced. To avoid abandonment the bailiff should note on the inventory that the stock will change and that this has been agreed with the debtor. Regular visits must be made to check that the quantity of goods still remains the same. For this paractice to work the Bailiff must either seize more goods to replace the sold stock OR take seize the money taken from the sale of the former levied stock. This practice would not be used to levy for Distress. A case file showing this as sanctioned practice by the courts is Dalton ex p Herrington 7 Carmichael vTrustee [1963] CH336.Abandonment by the bailiff cannot be proved in cases where there is an arrangement in place. There is case law to support this: Any sort of agreement or arrangement with the debtor is likely to be evidence of impounding contrary to a claim of abandonment (Anderson v Henry[1898] 29 OR 719.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Fair&Balanced

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Thanks for saving me some serious research F&B!!

 

I agree with the second fee challenge - but in reality, would you agree that bailiffs seem to be taken on their word that this two visits have happened.

 

Unless a screen shot shows otherwise.....

[tink74]

Thanks for this guys. tobe honest he was really nice (or seemed so) on the phone. He aske how business was and said-honestly, how is the busines doing. i said really badly got hardly anything in the bank. so he said he would take 100 per month. i asked him to let me pay the 200 today and the other 77 with the 1st payment of 80 next month and he said that as he had just been saying to my partner how reasonable a bailiff he is, that he should be now and said pay me 200 today and just 80.00 a month.

 

sounds like i may have spoken to the only decent bailiff on the earth?!

[ploddertom]

Thanks for this guys. tobe honest he was really nice (or seemed so) on the phone. He aske how business was and said-honestly, how is the busines doing. i said really badly got hardly anything in the bank. so he said he would take 100 per month. i asked him to let me pay the 200 today and the other 77 with the 1st payment of 80 next month and he said that as he had just been saying to my partner how reasonable a bailiff he is, that he should be now and said pay me 200 today and just 80.00 a month.

 

sounds like i may have spoken to the only decent bailiff on the earth?!

 

Beware the smiling assassin! First foot you put wrong and Bob certainly won't be your uncle.

 

 

PT

[tink74]

Thanks PlodderTom. Very good advice! I will be careful.

 

He said its better an quiker to pay over the phone each month. He said it does incurr a 1.50 charge each time but you dont run the risk of cheques not getting there etc. bit cheeky charging i think but dont want to risk the chque getting there late.

 

reading through, it seems he would sell stuff at auction. How much would he make on dog treats? just seems weird but i guess they just have to levy on whatever is there?

[westgarth]

Hi my fiend reccomended I come here.I'm hoping someone may be able to help me?

 

I run a small pet shop and the business has been really struggling. This is my first year of business. I messed up and didnt pay my business rates for last year. The council sent me a couple of letters but it went to the flat above who has the same number as my shop but my shop is A on the end. I got a letter from a bailiff last week saying i owed 425.00. I was going to call to sort it out but had a close family bereavement so have been caught up with that.

 

Today my fiancee rang to say the bailiff was there and was going to take everything. I spoke to him and explained why i hadnt called and asked if he could give me until Tuesday as I needed to go to the council to ask about small business relief. he said it was too late for that, he debt was now at 1110.40 and unless he had 277.00 within the next 20 minutes and agreement for a paymanet plan he would start removing things from the shop.

 

I couldnt afford 277 so he agreed to take 200. i paid the money and agreed 80.00 per month over the phone. I can afford this so am ok with the monthyl payments but he said he would do it only if i gave permission for my fiance to sign the posession agreement so i did.

 

the bailiff has listed all of the products and shelving including little platic baskets but not the freezer which i thought was odd but not moaning about.

 

i have a couple of questions:

 

firstly the agreement says if i dont pay he will come and take everything on the list so I dont see how i can now sell them to customers?

 

also the charges, the council confirmed the outstanding balance as 1001.00. he has added 24.50 first visit fee, 18.00 second visit 54.00 levy charge 12.00 walking posession fee and 24.50 admin fee.

 

Is this right? how can i sell my products to make money if he now posses them?

 

im so confused

 

baliff can only charge 2nd visit fee if he has been twice, who signed the walk in possession order, how did your £425 debt get up to £1100 in a week without excess baliff fee's ???

 

the baliff has to show authirisation from council etc... to debtor, the council will be showing £1100 on their baliff account because the baliff has probably loaded the fee's with removal van etc that has not been used yet, if you can give me more info then i can point you in the right direction, if your liability order from the council is for £425 then the baliff fees have been loaded and the council dont realise the situation

[westgarth]

Thanks PlodderTom. Very good advice! I will be careful.

 

He said its better an quiker to pay over the phone each month. He said it does incurr a 1.50 charge each time but you dont run the risk of cheques not getting there etc. bit cheeky charging i think but dont want to risk the chque getting there late.

 

reading through, it seems he would sell stuff at auction. How much would he make on dog treats? just seems weird but i guess they just have to levy on whatever is there?

 

they cant levy on whatever is there, i am not sure about stock, i have read something somewhere but need to check it out...... you MUST ask the baliff for a breakdown of charges and if there is something called enforcement fee than that dont exist and he is blagging you for more cash, your fee's should be less than £100 but they make their money by scaruing people and no one challenges them, you need to ask for the fee breakdown urgently

[Thegreenpimpernel]

£425 to £1100

 

I'm confused by that as well. I assumed given that the fees have been itemized and aren't that excessive that the £425 was a mistake.

 

The levy fee correlates to a LO for around £1000.

 

£425 would be way to low for business rates on a shop - unless he's paid half of it already.

 

Perhaps Tink could clarify or contact the council to find out.

 

I'm sure they can do stock westgarth, but not if you haven't paid for it i.e it's on account.

[tink74]

he said he would only enter into payment arrangement and not take all of my stock in the next 20 minutes if i authorised my fiance to sign the WPA for me. I was really worried so I did. i couldnt get there as I was over an hour away. I checked with council via phone and they said it was at 1001 when it left them which i dont understand as the 1st bailiff letter said 425.

 

i asked him to leave a breakdown of charges and they are as written above.

Thats what is written on the form. He said he didnt get a signature, he would just take things anyway.

 

without stock, i would have to close down and would still be liable for rent etc which i wouldnt be able to afford so jut did what he said

[Thegreenpimpernel]

I know my local authority instructs the bailiff to get payment, walking possession or remove goods - no other options.

 

You did the right thing.

[tink74]

thanks for that. I dont think im going to argue it too much> 80.00 is actually lower than the origional required by the council, Having said that I didnt have small business relief added.

 

I have just been checking through some other posts and theres one from beyong hope. someone on there has said if your disputing the amount and/or applying for relief they shouldnt pursue distrss. can anyone clarify?

 

mind you, dont want to annoy them and loose my stuff!

 

thanks for all your help guys. Its a horrible scary thing, Its great to know there is somewhere to go other than the CAB that although is helpful, you can harldy ever get an appointment at.

[ploddertom]

I have just been checking through some other posts and theres one from beyong hope. someone on there has said if your disputing the amount and/or applying for relief they shouldnt pursue distrss. can anyone clarify?

 

The Bailiff can keep enforcing at all times unless the employing authority asks them to put things on hold or cancels the action.

 

 

PT

[ploddertom]

Does the payment you are making still enable you to pay this years NNDR to the Council or will you struggle.

 

PT

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Good news on this years NNDR.

 

My local authority has sent out letters stating that 100% relief will apply to businesses with £6000 or less RV, starting in October, for one year. (subject to parliamentary approval)

 

They will not suspend enforcement as PT says, but i pray you still qualify for last years small business relief (usually 50%)

[tink74]

i think im going to strugle. couldnt really afford it in the first place. I will go down the council offices Tuesday. The bailiff said if the grant retrospective discount, they will email the bailiff and it willl come off of the total.

 

reading through i think its not anywhere need as bad an outcome as i could have had!

 

some people have had an awful time.

 

makes me feel silly really putting it on here now.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

It's not silly tink.

 

Given that it looks like a lot of us will only be paying eight months NDR this year, you would think that the councils would get into the spirit of the scheme and accept 75% installments from now on.

 

Though i wouldn't hold my breath....

[tink74]

Thanks for your help everyone.

 

I hope you all have a good easter and a Baillif free one at that!

 

I'll update this with how i get on at the council.

 

Everyones help is very much appreciated!

[westgarth]

did the baliff comply to this part of the regulation ?

 

" The person levying distress on behalf of an authority shall carry with him the written authorisation of the authority, which he shall show to the debtor if so requested; and he shall hand to the debtor or leave at the premises where the distress is levied a copy of this regulation and Schedule 3 and a memorandum setting out the appropriate amount, and shall hand to the debtor a copy of any close or walking possession agreement entered into."

 

The main part of this above regulation for me is the word debtor, if anyone other than the debtor can sign the walking possession order then the baliff could stop someone in the street, a customer on the premises etc and get them to sign, and surely its not that simple - or is it Mr High Court Officer ?

 

I would say that the baliff can levy distress without anyone being there but not just anyone can sign the possession order - thinking about it if that was the case that anyone can sign then the baliffs would bring along muppet number 2 who just happened to be there at the time to act as the signiture man?????

 

you definatley need to get absolute clarification from the council as to the exact amount of the debt, if it is £1100 then the charges are about right, but the baliff office should send you an itemised breakdown of cost not just hand written on the bottom of a piece of paper by a numpty who's incentive is to make as much money out of you as possible.

 

I would say that if you as the debtor didnt sign the possession order it aint legal.... anyone got an exact answer plzz

[westgarth]

i think im going to strugle. couldnt really afford it in the first place. I will go down the council offices Tuesday. The bailiff said if the grant retrospective discount, they will email the bailiff and it willl come off of the total.

 

reading through i think its not anywhere need as bad an outcome as i could have had!

 

some people have had an awful time.

 

makes me feel silly really putting it on here now.

 

i think they will give backdated discount, they are always behind anyway and i am sure that in the past few years i have had it backdated, not by a year though but definatley from the beggining of the acount year so do it quick..

 

please keep me informed for future reference

 

happy easter

[seanamarts]

The bailiff fees are wrong, he cannot charge for a visit and a levy on the same day.

 

This is what he can charge.

 

First visit fee: £24.50 This is for a first attendance to levy, but where a levy does not takes place.

The bailiff can charge a levy fee if they levy, but he cannot charge both amounts on the same occasion.

 

Second visit fee: £18.00

Despite any further visits, the bailiff can only charge for a maximum of 2 visits.

If its the first time he has been then he cannot charge you for the 2nd visit,

so the most he can charge is the levy fee, and WPO.

 

The are not allowed to take 'white goods', hence why he didnt levy on the freezer, but as your a business its always a gray area with what they can and cannot levy,

 

So take off the 1st and 2nd fee plus the admin fee and what is left is what you should be paying in fees.

I would write and complain to the council that the bailiff is trying to over charge you by £68.00 in unlawful fee's.

Make sure he has not excessively levied either, what he should of done is levied on stock to the amount of the debt plus his fees plus removal cost (about£150.00) plus auction cost.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Sorry Tink, seanamarts is right about the Levy and visit fee on the same visit - i missed that.

 

If there was only ever one visit i.e the one where he levied, then yes both visit fees should be removed.

 

Like i say, it would probably be wiser to kick up a fuss at the end ( the last payment). I wouldn't mess with the most generous business rates installment arrangement in history for £68 at this point.

 

Just my opinion.

[Fair&Balanced]

 

The are not allowed to take 'white goods', hence why he didnt levy on the freezer, but as your a business its always a gray area with what they can and cannot levy,

 

.

 

Its a business so they can. A freezer is not "exempt goods" for a trading business. The environmental disposal payment following it not selling at auction would be the reason.