Bailiffs (Phoenix) and Council tax - please help.

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae - many thnks - i'll correct the typo. The vulnerable status of my household is unequivocal - and having spent much time of the forum reading various threads - it would seem that we've done about the best we can. But do you forsee any stunts they might pull at this late stage.

 

Especially - as we have been able to show their negligence and contempt in their work, i refer to the bailiffs declaring and charging for Walking posession when no such event took place?

 

thanks

BF

[RaeUK]

tbh, I'd also seriously consider contacting your MP. But, be aware that you only have up to April 11th as parliament is dissolved on the 12th ready for the election. He / she may be very keen to help - mine was - but may not be - others have just received generic letters. [This was about disablity payments not bailiffs].

Just a thought.

Best wishes to all.

Rae.

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae - thanks -

 

Regarding benefits, i'll write a letter to our MP's - both Labour and Conservative. I have a Social Worker coming round on Tuesday and I'll also go through all these issues with him. perhaps you can give me some pointers as i've really no experience in benefits.

 

Regarding the bailiffs - do you think theres any chance of them pulling some stunt or have we covered everything?

 

Many thanks/BF

[RaeUK]

Tbh, I don't think there is much they can do. If they try to take action against you they will be very much in the wrong and leave themselves open to higher complaints. The council should be scrabbling to get this back given your circumstances. I beleive it's probably only been a week or so since you sent the council formal complaint. I normally suggest 14 days as a reasonable time. But, under the circumstances, giving them a nudge via your local councillor / MP won't hurt.

Phoenix are members of the Association of Civil Enforcement Agents. Their code of conduct is a mirror of the National Standards. Granted, they are a bit of a toothless organisation but just highlights how wrong Phoenix are.

Best wishes to all.

Rae

[RaeUK]

Regarding benefits, i'll write a letter to our MP's - both Labour and Conservative. I have a Social Worker coming round on Tuesday and I'll also go through all these issues with him. perhaps you can give me some pointers as i've really no experience in benefits.

 

I'd be contacting the MPs about the bailiffs...

 

If you post your household circumstances and questions in the benefits forum you will get excellent and accurate advice - better than mine!

 

Best wishes

Rae

[burmafriday]

Thanks Rae - Shall do as you suggest.

 

will get back to you and everyone regarding the situation with the bailiffs - i guess all will be revealed next week.

 

 

have a great weekend everyone.

BF

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae,

 

Thanks for your messages - sorry i was out (was seeing my brother and it took time today)

 

It occurred to me that Phoenix had blatantly lied when they declared that they had taken walking possession. I never entered into any agreements with them. Therefore the fees they charged me are totally inappropriate.

Furthermore, they would not be able to submit any documentary evidences as i did not sign anything.

 

so with that in mind,

 

a) Is there an application I can submit to stop them coming to my house - by using the N244 form?

b) If so, what would i title my application?

c) as they are contracted by the council and the council had taken an order out against me, would i now be able to apply for a stay against this order since the agents of the council clearly had lied.?

 

what do you think?

 

If this is a feasible idea then perhaps i should put this in place on Tuesday/Wednesday. This would totally stop them in their tacks.

 

look forward to hearing from you

thanks/BF

[RaeUK]

I'd have to leave it to far better people than I to advise on N244 I'm afraid. I stick with the simple stuff!

Best wishes to all.

Rae.

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae,

thanks for your prompt response. You've been exceptionally helpful - as have everyone. i would have gone nuts otherwise.

 

Its just that i need to go do some travelling with my work and my younger daughter was going to stay with her great aunt and i would hate the thought of her having to face the bailiffs.

 

Thats the thing.

 

all the best/BF

[burmafriday]

Hi Everyone,

 

I hope you are all enjoying the weather and topping up the Tan!!

 

I have a reply from the Bailiffs but not the COuncil just yet.

attached is the reply the bailiffs

 

They refered to a levy form signed on 22 Sept 2009 and that a copy was enclosed.

1. nothing was enclosed with their letter

2. i really do not remember signing any letters or forms. - I think they are getting to me. I was declaring that i did not sign any thing - Now I am thinking... did I sign something??? !!!

 

Regarding their comment that i would pay £ 1000 in November 2009 - thats not quite accurate. I said I would try and pay this amount.

 

any comments pl??

 

Many thanks/BF

phoenix-scan0001[1].doc

[RaeUK]

Hi BF,

Maybe just drop them an email and let them know they forgot to enclose a copy of the levy form. You need to see a copy, in my view, to ascertain if you did sign it or someone else did...

Best wishes

Rae.

[burmafriday]

HI Rae

 

thanks for your prompt reply - unfortunately i have no email for them. but i hv written to them asking exactly for that.

 

thanks BF

[tenants Super]

hi,

 

Newbie here.....Have you informed the council of your change of circumstances?

A letter to the council or maybe a phone call to and maybe you can come up with a new revised way of making payments to the council for tax arrears preferably one that you can afford?

[RaeUK]

Hi BF, is this them?

 

Phoenix Commercial

 

Hi tenants Super, I believe he has done and is awaiting a response...

 

Best wishes

Rae

[burmafriday]

HI Tenants super - yes i hv done so and i think i'll probably do it again.

Hi Rae - yes these are the guys.

below is the text of my last letter to Poenix

 

I refer to your letter dated 09 April 2010 which I have just received

You state in your letter that you enclosed a copy of a levy form signed on 22 September 2009 – but this copy was not included in your aforementioned letter. Will you therefore forward this to me please by return.

You further stated that an arrangement was made to clear the outstanding matter. I stress again that I made no arrangements.

You mentioned that I wrote to you and offered to pay £ 1000 by the end of November 2009. You are referring to my letter of 27/10/2009. A copy of this letter is attached for your convenience

 

Please let me clarify : my exact statement was

 

"...In the meantime, one of my friends have kindly offered me the use of his e-bay account to raise some cash and the listings will be starting on Thursday. But this will take a good 3 weeks there on to receive payment to pay you.

 

My plan is to make a substantial payment to you - about £1000 – by the end of November. …”

 

Please now let me refer you to my letter of 27/12/2009 (A copy is also enclosed) – wherein I advised you that

I could not make the £ 1000 I had planned as the friend who helped me with sales on e-bay went to India due to bereavement in his family. Unfortunately, I cannot now contact him.

 

I also advised you that I had been unable to work as my brother had a brain hemorrhage and was in intensive care.

 

I did make an offer of payment to you at £ 27 per month in my letter of 27 March 2010

 

You mentioned that you can enter a property without being asked, as long as they do not force entry.

I have stressed to you that I have an elderly aunt of 88 years with some serious disability. My aunt is in an extremely bad state. If she suffered a shock by meeting any of your representatives who “entered my property” it will probably kill her.

I would again, therefore request that the case is returned to the London Borough of Barnet.

Yours faithfully,

 

cc. Head of Finance, London Borough

 

i am waiting to hear from them

thanks again

BF

Edited April 15, 2010 by burmafriday
too many fonts

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae and everyone

 

I have now received a reply from the council - they sent it on 07 April, but i've only just received it today. I sent them an email stating that i just recieved their letter.

 

they are refusing to recall the debt back from the bailiffs and also state that the Vulnerable status does not apply to the household, but only to my relevant relative.

 

theres a few things i must do as a result of their letter but i shall be grateful for your comments and contributions - (which have been spot on so far and hv been a great help)

 

look forward to hearing from you.

 

thanks/BF

scan0001.pdf

[RaeUK]

Oh dear. They do seem to have a complete misunderstanding of the NSEAs.

The reason it applies to the household not just the individual debtor is absolute basic common sense.

In your case you live with an elderly and fragile relative in the household. Further enforcement action against you, the debtor, severely risks her health. Therefore she needs to be protected. It would be pointless indeed for the category to refer purely to the debtor alone and would prejudice many thousands of genuinely vulnerable people.

I notice the nifty bureaucratic footwork where the responder states the standards refer to the debtor who may be vulnerable and not their relatives. Of course it won't apply to your Great Aunt Agnes living in Aberdeen! Why not just say openly that it dosn't apply to the household...

I think - looking at the number of dates they qoute you as having written in - they have you pidgeon holed as 'serial complainer, ignore if possible' just my feelings...

If they have treated this as a Formal Complaint then they must register and log it. I don't know how they do that. It might be interesting to write back along the following lines:

 

Dear whatsit,

Thankyou for your letter [date and reference].

I am disappointed to note that you fail to understand that the National Standards for Enforcement Agents vulnerable category actually applies to the household and not just the debtor. It would be a mockery for it to operate in the way you would seem to prefer.

It is not surprising, I assume, that if your own council is uneducated in this simple document than those you employ as your contracting agents would prove likewise.

Whilst I appreciate the suggestion of complaining to your actual contractors, please note that they are your contractors and you have a duty of care and responsibility for them. Therefore my complaint to you is valid and should not be ignored.

I trust that you have duly noted and logged my complaint as being a Formal Complaint for statistical purposes. I request confirmation of this as you leave me with no further option than to pursue this matter with the Local Authority Ombudsman and - at the appropriate date - my Member of Parliament.

Yours sincerely

Me.

 

I am a bit miffed tonight. This is the second off-the-top-of-my-head note I've written because a council fails to see its responsibility. Honestly, you'd think they'd all act the same...

 

Best wishes

Rae.

[burmafriday]

HI Rae - thanks - thats a great help.

i am going through their comments and forms that they sent and will post another note later this evening after i too am a bit clearer.

 

I note your comment regarding their treating me as perpetual complainer. Good point! However, in this repsonse -they hv basically ignored most of the points of these correspondences.

 

thanks again/BF

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae,

 

Thanks for your posting early this morning. It was a great help and i am spending time going through the letters and forms. I am dedicating the rest of today/however long it takes to deal with this matter.

 

Two things happened this morning

 

a) I received a letter from the Phoenix stating that i should contact one of their Bailiffs directly "to resolve this matter" It was dated 16 April.

I wrote to them on 13th April - requesting a copy of the levy form/walking possession form which they claimed i had signed (and a copy which they say was enclosed in their letter of 09 April - but actually, it was not - i think a copy of this letter is in the thread)

 

so i wrote to them asking for a copy of this form to be sent to me - again.

 

b) I received another letter from the Council in the post today. This letter was dated 14 April, and it was a reply to my letter of 02 April.

 

I am attaching a copy of their leter of 14 April with this posting. (sorry i scanned the Bailiff fees breakdown twice!!)

 

1) Please note that they claim the vulnerable status is only applicable to my aunt - if the debt was hers.

 

2a) Please note that they refer to the walking possession - which i have do not believe i have signed (and have asked for a copy of this document from the bailiffs)

 

2b) they state that i made an offer of repayment to the bailiff of £ 785.00 every 31 days from 23 Nov. 2009 - which is clearly NOT THE CASE - i never made this offer. The Bailif who entered my house uninvited on 22 September 2009 sent me this demand in a text message. (I hve this text saved in my phone)

 

It reads

"...Your authorisation code is XXXX for £ 255 (which i paid on 22/09/2009 by deit card)

the balance needs to be cleared @ 3 x £ 785.40. First payment 22/10/09- 22/11/09 - 22/12/09.. please make payable to xxxx addressed as per letter..."

 

 

Furthermore, what is clear is that the council is still refusing to acknowledge that

 

1. there is a real problem,

2. and that my circumstances have changed dramatically, (from having little or no dependants to suddenly significant dependants with significant social and welfare needs.)

3. Tried to deal with it on my own as i was ignorance of the possibily of assistance from the council.

4. and not address this problem in a sensible mature manner, but instead

threathen me with further court action.

 

I'll go through the communications again and formulate one single reply covering all the issues and post it for your comments

 

Many thanks

BF

scan0002.pdf

Edited April 21, 2010 by burmafriday
grammatical errors

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae,

 

I hope you are feeling better tonight.

I have now finished my first draft at replying to the council. Please see the text below.

 

I think i hv dealt with everything and shall be grateful for your comments and input.

 

Many, Many thanks/BF

 

+++

 

I refer to the above and your letters dated 07 April 2010 – which I received on 19 April and your letter dated 14 April – which I received this morning

 

As I see it, and from the various correspondences it must also be clear to you also, that my financial position had taken a nose – dive.

My situation has changed dramatically over the last two years.

Subsequently I am facing a very real problem.

Whereas I had a significant income and no dependants,

Now, I have no income and a lot of dependants.

 

In your letter of 07 April, you referred to four letters I wrote in March 2010 - dated 03/03, 16/03, 19/03, 27/03. Please do not think that I am a perpetual complainer. These letters were sent in relation to a number of issues

.

03/03 – in this letter, I notified you that my brother had a relapse after reviving briefly from his operations.

16/03 - in this letter

- I asked for the name of the welfare rights officer at the council so I may make contact and seek assistance/advice due to the severity of my position and change in circumstances.

I requested clarity on the date of the liability order and the amount outstanding for period 2008/2009

I asked for the Name and contact details of your Head of Revenues. I have not received it.

19/03 – this is a formal complaint against your contractor bailiff. I stressed on the vulnerable nature of my 88 year old partially blind, deaf and disabled Aunt and the stress she suffered as a consequence of the visit of your contracting representative.

27/03 – in this letter, I highlighted inaccuracies in the claims made by your contractor. I stressed that I did not enter into any agreements. Further, I highlighted the incorrect application of fees they received from me.

Regarding the Vulnerable status issue – which you touched on in both your letters 07 April and 14 April, I do not share your view that the vulnerable status applies to just the person. It applies to the entire household as a result of the existence of that person. In my case, my aunt is wholly dependent on me.

 

I quote the following from the Department of Constitutional Affairs - National Standards for Enforcement Agents, May 2002 from their website Department for Constitutional Affairs - Enforcement - National Standards for Enforcement Agents

 

Vulnerable situations

· Enforcement agents/agencies and creditors must recognise that they each have a role in ensuring that the vulnerable and socially excluded are protected and that the recovery process includes procedures agreed between the agent/agency and creditor about how such situations should be dealt with. The appropriate use of discretion is essential in every case and no amount of guidance could cover every situation, therefore the agent has a duty to contact the creditor and report the circumstances in situations where there is potential cause for concern. If necessary, the enforcement agent will advise the creditor if further action is appropriate. The exercise of appropriate discretion is needed, not only to protect the debtor, but also the enforcement agent who should avoid taking action which could lead to accusations of inappropriate behaviour.

· Wherever possible, enforcement agents should have arrangements in place for rapidly accessing translation services when these are needed, and provide on request information in large print or in Braille for debtors with impaired sight.

 

· Those who might be potentially vulnerable include:

• 
  
  • the elderly;
    
  • people with a disability;
    
  • the seriously ill;
    
  • the recently bereaved;
    
  • single parent families;
    
  • pregnant women;
    
  • unemployed people; and,
    
  • those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or reading English.
    

Please refer to the underlined text. A person with vulnerable status is one who is unable to “fend” for herself. Thus, if a there is a person with vulnerable status in a house hold, this status applies to the entire house hold.

 

Regarding carers – thank you for your information – I will contact them.

 

Regarding your comments on the bailiffs complaints procedure I will request this. In the meantime however, please note that they are your contractors and you have a duty of care and responsibility for them. Therefore my complaint to you is valid and should not be ignored. I trust that you have duly noted and logged my complaint as being a Formal Complaint for statistical purposes. I request confirmation of this.

 

Housing Benefit and Council tax benefit form – thank you for sending this. I shall complete it and send it.

 

The financial statement – thank you for enclosing this. I am seriously broke at the moment. I am in arrears in my mortgage and have just arranged a repayment schedule with them. I am also in negotiations with the following creditors

 

a. Gas

b. Water

c. Electricity

d. Bank

e. Yourselves

 

Hence, I am not really in a position to submit a meaningful financial statement “today”, with this letter. On completion of my negotiations, I can submit an accurate financial statement.

 

10) Your letter of 14 April 2010 – where you comment on my letter of 02 April.

 

a) You stated that the bailiff charged correct fees – I regret I do not agree and I stated my reasons in my letter of 02 April.

b) I confirm that the bailiff did make a visit. I stated this in my previous correspondence.

c) I did not sign a Walking possession. I asked the bailiff to send me copies – which to date, they have failed to do.

d) I did not make an offer of repayment of £785. 00 every 31 days.

e) It was the bailiff who sent a text to my mobile phone :

It reads

"...Your authorisation code is XXXX for £ 255 (which I paid on 22/09/2009 by debit card) the balance needs to be cleared @ 3 x £ 785.40. First payment 22/10/09- 22/11/09 - 22/12/09.. please make payable to xxxx addressed as per letter..."

 

I saved this text in my mobile phone. It was sent from 07966373656at 12.23 on 22/09/2009. I did not make this offer.

 

Clearly – the listing they made on their website is totally inaccurate.

11) I note that my debt is £ 4624.15 to 31 March 2010. Then there is the new council tax for the year 2010/11 which will increase this total to over £ 6000.

 

If you check back at your records, you will see that for 2005/2006, 2006/2007. 2007/2008 – I paid the council tax each year, in full.

 

I did not choose to go into debt. No one does that. Circumstances beyond my control had , taking place co-currently had created my situation.

 

Clearly, I do have a problem – and this is contributed and compounded by my having dependents whom I have been looking after without seeking the states help.

I have since learnt that I am entitled to state help as I am the sole income earner who had had to look after an ailing mother, aunt, and brother. (I also have a young daughter who lives with me.)

 

Due to my current situation, I am entitled to a reduction in council tax, and carious benefits.

 

I therefore request that you appoint a welfare officer to assess my case and needs and adjust my indebtedness accordingly. I think this would be the most proper, logical and expedient solution, where up on we can then agree to a repayment schedule.

 

My request is quite simply this. I need the council to take the above circumstances into account and acknowledge it and deal with it sympathetically.

 

I did offer £ 27 per month. It’s the most I can afford at the moment. Perhaps you can agree to this amount for the first six months and then review the situation.

 

I am certain that my circumstances will improve within this 6 month window. I shall be more than happy to increase my monthly installments.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

++++++++++++++++++

Edited April 21, 2010 by burmafriday
appearance of "fonts"

[burmafriday]

HI Rae,

 

hopefully, you'll be able to comment on my letter to the council. In the meantime, I am attaching my letter to the bailiffs as a result of the claims they made which were brought to my attention by the Council. I hope now that the council can see that their contractors are making inaccurate claims.

 

look forward to hearing from you.

 

Thanks and all the best/BF

CAG tax9.doc.pdf

[RaeUK]

Hi BF,

Apols, I missed your post yesterday.

Have read over both letters. I would say, on the whole, they are fine. Obviously we have different styles. Also - as you probably noted - when you copy and paste into a post it tends to do it's own thing with the formatting. Just ensure, on the original, that it's all in the same font style and size...

It would be interesting to see what the council come back with. If they remain stubborn than it'll be a complaint to the Ombudsman.

Best wishes

Rae

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae

 

Thanks for yr post - i am just totally stunned by the claims from the bailiffs. How can they just blatently lie??? i never made such a proposal - its a good job i have this message still saved in my phone. I'll hv to find a way to transfer this to my PC

 

yes - copying and pasting from a word doc to the CAG message box is really quite a nightmare.

 

i've suggested to the council that its clear that i am entitled to beniefits, and so i requested that they look into this and then deal with the tax. I would have thought that would be the best way to go as i have clearly been overcharged.

 

I had also asked them to give me contact details of their welfare officer - to which they have not replied.

 

i hv been doing some research on the CAG concerning benefits and learnt a few things but still pretty ignorant on the subject. I think, as you suggested earlier, i need to get some guidance on this through CAG

 

All the best/BF

[RaeUK]

Hi,

We do have several former welfare rights people, DWP and JCP staff who post regularly on the benefits forum, so it tends to be a place to find good advice.

Do note that not every council will have provision for welfare rights officers, mine doesn't for example and I had to make do with CAB...

Best wishes

Rae

[burmafriday]

Hi Rae,

thanks for yr msg - I'll do that Monday/Tues evening.

- i'm afraid i lost this weekend due to some serious hayfever. Could not spend much time looking at the monitor at all.

all the best/BF