Is there anyway of get out of this pcn ticket

[willlee]

Hello. New to this forum. Is there anyway of getting out of this pcn council ticket??? would make make my week if there was

 

Many thanks

Edited February 23, 2010 by willlee

[crem]

Need to post a bigger image for everyone to be able to read it. use photobucket or tinypics or similar

[willlee]

Edited February 23, 2010 by willlee

[willlee]

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Hope that's better

Edited February 23, 2010 by willlee

[kwaks]

You will need to post all of the ticket, the back is just as important.

[willlee]

 

Thanks for the tip Kwaks

Edited February 23, 2010 by willlee

[TheBogsDollocks]

The PCN is non compliant.

 

Many people are under the false impression that a person only has 28 days to submit an informal challenge. The truth of the matter is that a person can submit an informal challenge at any time before an NtO is served and the regulations require a PCN to convey this. See 3(2)(b)

 

Results within Legislation - Statute Law Database

 

3(2)(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner

 

 

Failing to make this clear on the PCN may cause prejudice. For instance, a person (who has not yet received an NtO) may only remember about the PCN on the 30th day after it was served and may think they are out of time for any appeal as the PCN implies that they only had 28 days when actually the law allows them to appeal at any time before the NtO is served. NtO's are not generally served immediately after 28 days of the PCN being served. It could be up to 6 months before an NtO is served.

[Jamberson]

Anyone know where the OP stands with the lack of observation time on the PCN? Surely if a p&d system is operable he's entitled to an observation time, in case he is in the process of purchasing a ticket?

[kwaks]

I am going to assume by the location this is off street parking, possibly that will answer Jambersons' question if you were observed driving in then leaving the sight.

 

[EDIT]

TheBogsDollocks is correct and should be enough to fight it off at adjudication, however for belt and braces I would also obtain a copy of the PPO and look for any mistakes there.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Rooster-UK

[willlee]

whats a PPO? sorry for the dum question

[willlee]

The PCN is non compliant.

 

Many people are under the false impression that a person only has 28 days to submit an informal challenge. The truth of the matter is that a person can submit an informal challenge at any time before an NtO is served and the regulations require a PCN to convey this. See 3(2)(b)

 

Results within Legislation - Statute Law Database

 

3(2)(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner

 

 

Failing to make this clear on the PCN may cause prejudice. For instance, a person (who has not yet received an NtO) may only remember about the PCN on the 30th day after it was served and may think they are out of time for any appeal as the PCN implies that they only had 28 days when actually the law allows them to appeal at any time before the NtO is served. NtO's are not generally served immediately after 28 days of the PCN being served. It could be up to 6 months before an NtO is served.

 

Where do i go with this information? Would I need to put this into some sort of letter?

Thanks very much for your time

[kwaks]

whats a PPO? sorry for the dum question

 

Parking Places Order is the legal foundation for which off street (council) parking is enforced. It is an order that details where the off street parking is, the charges, opening hours and the terms of use. Without a valid PPO the council would not legally be able to enforce parking restrictions within their car parks.

[Jamberson]

So what you can do is ask the council for a copy of the PPO for that location, and check it all adds up - correct location, descriptions, definitions, etc. If it does not then you could use that as the basis of an appeal.

 

If not, you could use the info in BogsDollocks post (number 7) as the basis for an appeal.

 

Either way, you're challenging on the validity of the charge rather than anything else.

[willlee]

Thanks Jamberson will do that and go from there

[TheBogsDollocks]

Parking Places Order is the legal foundation for which off street (council) parking is enforced. It is an order that details where the off street parking is, the charges, opening hours and the terms of use. Without a valid PPO the council would not legally be able to enforce parking restrictions within their car parks.

 

I'm patiently waiting for the opportunity to get an off street order ruled as invalid and unenforceable on the premiss that the car park is not off street in the eyes of the law.

 

The RTRA 1984 defines "off street" as being land that does not form part of a road and "road" is defined as a length of hghway where the public has access. "Highway" is defined as a way where the public can pass and repass without hindrance (by foot or other means).

 

We've seen many times at adjudication where private land that does not prevent public access by means such as fences, bollards etc is considered as public highway and therefore is "road" and any yellow line restriction can extend to restrict the private land as well as the public land and cases in London where a parked motorcycle on private land is considered parked on the public footway.

 

So I'm looking for a council car park that is in the open air without any barrier obstacles, such as fences, walls etc around it that restrict public access and where the public (on foot or by vehicle) frequently use the car park as a thoroughfare or shortcut. If this public access can be caught on camera clearly showing that the public are passing and repassing without hindrance then it can be argued the car park is not technically "off street" as it forms part of a road.

 

If an off steet car park can be ruled as being actually on street, then any council off street traffic order will be unenforceable as it is made under s.32 and s.35 RTRA 1984 and the law requires any "on street" parking place provided for payment, to be made under s.45 and s.46 RTRA 1984.

 

If councils can use the "highway" argument to enforce accessible private land then I see no reason why the same argument cannot be used against the council where it is appropriate.

Edited February 24, 2010 by TheBogsDollocks

[lamma]

I know such a car park.

[TheBogsDollocks]

I know such a car park.

 

Yes...there are certainly many scattered about nationwide. Just waiting for a PCN issued in one to be put on the forums.

 

Unless you know anyone with a PCN from that car park? If so, just film all the public passing and repassing and slap down some old adjudication decisions about private land accessible to the public being considered highway and thus "road" and then see if the council is brave enough to contest at adjudication.

 

This could be fun. Not only would PCN's be unenforceable but all parking tariffs would have to cease for a few months while a new order goes through due process.

[lamma]

And they would have to sign and line according to the TSRGD.

[TheBogsDollocks]

And they would have to sign and line according to the TSRGD.

 

Absolutely....get's better doesn't it.

[lamma]

And rebalance the accounts, income taken back from the general fund.

[TheBogsDollocks]

And rebalance the accounts, income taken back from the general fund.

 

Agreed. It will only take one such adjudication decision to send shockwaves throughout every council. They'll be erecting fences pretty damn quick.

[kwaks]

Might be worth just picking up a PCN from one of these car parks to try it

[Nige1]

The PCN is non compliant.

 

Many people are under the false impression that a person only has 28 days to submit an informal challenge. The truth of the matter is that a person can submit an informal challenge at any time before an NtO is served and the regulations require a PCN to convey this. See 3(2)(b)

 

Results within Legislation - Statute Law Database

 

3(2)(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner

 

 

Failing to make this clear on the PCN may cause prejudice. For instance, a person (who has not yet received an NtO) may only remember about the PCN on the 30th day after it was served and may think they are out of time for any appeal as the PCN implies that they only had 28 days when actually the law allows them to appeal at any time before the NtO is served. NtO's are not generally served immediately after 28 days of the PCN being served. It could be up to 6 months before an NtO is served.

 

Just out of interest as I'm fighting a PCN too, would a Letter from the council entitled "NOTICE OF REJECTION OF CHARGE CERTIFICATE" which states:

"A notice to the owner was sent on 20th October 2009 and this gave you the opportunity to make formal representations to the City Council within 28 days"

 

amount to the same prejudice? I've been letter writing back and forth since last August when the alleged offence took place asking for clarification on a number of matters? I can also go down the t-bars at the end of double yellows missing route but most people seem to think that will falil these days. This was all because I set the time clock on my disabled badge incorrectly.

 

Also, just for clarification, could someone please explain exactly what a 'notice to owner' (NtO) is. Is it a court document or a letter from the Council or something else?

Edited March 14, 2010 by Nige1
spelling

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

A Notice to Owner is the formal document issued under statute that is the first stage in the enforcement process. It sets the ball rolling for representations and appeals. If not responded to or if the representations fail and are not appealed against it entitles the LA to enforce as a civil debt.

 

It sounds to me a bit like either your LA have not treated your correspondence as formal representations and/or you have not appreciated that you have to respond in the manner set out in the NTO.

 

For you to succeed you now need to play by the rules and have some luck.

[lamma]

you can't reject the Charge Cert. Wait for the Order for Recovery and fill in the Witness Statement.