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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Not over yet! RGS1 vs HSBC


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So after the ruling this morning it seems the power is back in our hands.

 

I currently have a Small Claims court stay in place (started the court case in 2007, was given a court date but then the stay came in) i am guessing after todays ruling this will be removed.

 

Obviously then things should carry on as two years ago.

 

My claim was based on the old particulars that included the arguement about the charges being penalties, will i need to go back and amend this? If so how do i go about that?

 

I have included sections 2 and 5 of the UTCCR already as well but dont know if these need to be the sole arguement now.

Edited by RGS1
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Hello mate.

 

I'm with you on this, whilst the unsupreme court rulled against the OFT, they didn't rule as to if the charges are unfair or not, simply that the OFT can't investigate them.

 

I see us as being in the exact same place that we were some 30 months ago before the test case and before every case was stayed.

 

I'm currently waiting for people far more talented than me to read the full judgement and see how we proceed from there.

 

As far as I can see it, we can still go to court and ask the banks just how much it costs for them to pay a DD when overdrawn. As the newly revised charges that most customers are getting via email/post it is far from the £100 that they have charged in the past.

 

I very much doubt that the banks would be prepared to admit just how much it actually costs so they could still continue to pay out as before.

 

I don't at all see this as the end of the road, mearly a pause to check the map and find out which direction we go in from here.

 

For one thing, I'm glad that progress can now be made instead of the stalemate situation we've been in for all these months now.

25/01/07 Statements collected online

27/01/07 Prelim sent

09/02/07 Thank you letter received (and duly ignored)

12/02/07 LBA on its way

27/02/07 MCOL filed

26/03/07 Defence entered

02/04/07 Notice of transfer paperwork received

10/04/07 Lattie's hastner sent

19/04/07 AQ arrived (never mind lattie!)

20/04/07 Last Chance letter sent to DG, AQ filled out.

08/05/07 AQ returned to courts, cc'd to DG

11/06/07 Request for the defence to be struck out sent after not hearing from the court for 5 long weeks.

14/06/07 Directions hearing set for the end of August. 10 long weeks away.

14/06/07 rob-the-viking waits yet longer......

23/08/07 DG apply for a stay, instantly granted by judge.

29/08/07 The waiting begins again, 7 months since prelim was sent.

 

"If you kick a Tiger in the ass, you'd better have a plan to deal with it's teeth!!"

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The Consumer Forums - Announcements in Forum : HSBC Bank

 

Give it a couple of days for the dust to settle and let those who run this site and others like it rear the full judgement and I suspect there will be an idea of how to proceed.

 

the fat lady aint even in the building, let alone warming up!!

25/01/07 Statements collected online

27/01/07 Prelim sent

09/02/07 Thank you letter received (and duly ignored)

12/02/07 LBA on its way

27/02/07 MCOL filed

26/03/07 Defence entered

02/04/07 Notice of transfer paperwork received

10/04/07 Lattie's hastner sent

19/04/07 AQ arrived (never mind lattie!)

20/04/07 Last Chance letter sent to DG, AQ filled out.

08/05/07 AQ returned to courts, cc'd to DG

11/06/07 Request for the defence to be struck out sent after not hearing from the court for 5 long weeks.

14/06/07 Directions hearing set for the end of August. 10 long weeks away.

14/06/07 rob-the-viking waits yet longer......

23/08/07 DG apply for a stay, instantly granted by judge.

29/08/07 The waiting begins again, 7 months since prelim was sent.

 

"If you kick a Tiger in the ass, you'd better have a plan to deal with it's teeth!!"

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Hi rob, :)

 

I like your reasoning there ..... what has changed from when the 'Test Case' reared it's ugly head as a time wasting exercise ...... ?

 

Not a lot ! the banks still won't want to answer in court as to what their actual costs are , - that's why they were making 'Goodwill' payments before the Case kicked in ... to keep that info out of the public domain ....

It may mean that the courts will be inundated again ..... and they've only got the 'Supreme Court ' to thank for that if they are .....

 

Meanwhile, it may be worth a petition to the PM , just to let him know the strength of feeling over this judgement ..... but we'll obviously take our lead from Bankfodder and the ST members on this, and other methods of retaliation .....

 

Onwards and Upwards ! :)

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

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If the banks apply for blanked dismissals to all cases in the small claims court, would we have a chance to appeal/oppose this action?

We didnt really have a chance with the stays but i am hoping this will be different.

Im chomping at the bit to get back to my claim, its quite liberating to know that its back in our hands not the OFT's.

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I can't see how the banks can obtain blanket dismissals , if everyone argues that their cases are unique in some way.....

 

We will have to wait and see , but I wonder if the 'Penalty Charges ' argument might not come back into being ......

 

Have to wait and see what BF and the gurus come up with ....let's give 'em time ... :)

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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The Consumer Forums - Announcements in Forum : General

 

Things are happening already it would appear! They don't hang about on this site! Kudos to all the team!

25/01/07 Statements collected online

27/01/07 Prelim sent

09/02/07 Thank you letter received (and duly ignored)

12/02/07 LBA on its way

27/02/07 MCOL filed

26/03/07 Defence entered

02/04/07 Notice of transfer paperwork received

10/04/07 Lattie's hastner sent

19/04/07 AQ arrived (never mind lattie!)

20/04/07 Last Chance letter sent to DG, AQ filled out.

08/05/07 AQ returned to courts, cc'd to DG

11/06/07 Request for the defence to be struck out sent after not hearing from the court for 5 long weeks.

14/06/07 Directions hearing set for the end of August. 10 long weeks away.

14/06/07 rob-the-viking waits yet longer......

23/08/07 DG apply for a stay, instantly granted by judge.

29/08/07 The waiting begins again, 7 months since prelim was sent.

 

"If you kick a Tiger in the ass, you'd better have a plan to deal with it's teeth!!"

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14. Further, under the UTCCR:

 

"5. - (1) A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.

 

(2) A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.

 

(3) Notwithstanding that a specific term or certain aspects of it in a contract has been individually negotiated, these Regulations shall apply to the rest of a contract if an overall assessment of it indicates that it is a pre-formulated standard contract.

 

(4) It shall be for any seller or supplier who claims that a term was individually negotiated to show that it was."

 

Schedule 2 also includes such clauses (to define examples of unfair clauses) as:

 

"(i) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract;

 

(j) enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract;

 

(m) giving the seller or supplier the right to determine whether the goods or services supplied are in conformity with the contract, or giving him the exclusive right to interpret any term of the contract."

 

The defendant is a multi-national corporation. The term regarding charges was inserted unilaterally in contract. The contract was pre and mass produced and I had no opportunity to negotiate the clause, or indeed any of the contract.

 

I have this in my witness statement, anybody know if this is enough or will iI need to send in an amendment to make it stronger??

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VICTORIES TO DATE THROUGH THE HELP OF THIS SITE:

 

1. Littlewoods Catalouge - No pursual of debt & wrote off £4500

2. Three mobile - Debt written off in full, all adverse entries including default removed from credit files, even got an apology from the Chairmans office

3. HSBC Bank - Partial refund for bank charges & claim lodged at court for outstanding charges.

4. HFC Bank - Ongoing - SAR'd in may- Going to register at court for non compliance.

5. Barclaycard - Being very awkward but Ongoing - These are a tricky bunch but they will fold before I do.

 

GOD BLESS CONSUMER ACTION GROUP!

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Do you think it is worth requesting the removal of the stay now and then changing POCif needed in a weeks time. It shows were doing something then, just worried about the banks trying to get claims struck out.

Do you think they could get struck out without anyone having the chance to argue?

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I wouldn't put it past them to try a sneaky one , not sure if they'd succeed - if they apply for the stay to be lifted I'd say you have to have a chance to continue with your case, before a judge would strike it out .

 

My son has already sent the letter to the court asking for his stay to be lifted and a hearing date set ...... if he has to change the POCs he can do it before the hearing ....... so it's really your choice I think , although I think the revised POCs will be out pretty soon ...

 

I'll keep the site informed on how my son's application goes .... I also got him to send a copy of the letter to HSBC - in the hope that it might prompt an offer of settlement before they have to go the court route again........ He had an offer of full refund and accepted 2 days ! before the bar dropped in July 07 ...... and they reneged ......... so it's cost them another few quid in interest since then :D

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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I have sent the letter out and one to DG solicitors too. I added in a bit about regecting a strikeout too on the same basis as the stay removal.

 

Like your son I can then change my POC's if I need to at a later date. Hopefully this works though, Im not too confident of getting a settlement offer though. I only had one right at the start of my complaint and it was for under half the amount I was asking for. So im sure the added interest will make the refusal even more worth while lol.

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Just a case of wait and see then RGS , this is kind of uncharted territory at the moment ,,,,,, :)

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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What did your son put in the letter? Just basically asking for the stay to be lifted and for a court date to be appointed? A copy of his letter would be appreciated RGS1

Beating the DCA's day by day

 

My fight:

NDR - CCA'd 12+2 passed

Bank of Scotland - CCA'd 12+2 passed

CFS - Win by Technical Knock-out!:lol:

HFC Bank - CCA'd 12+2 passed

Chantry Collections - CCA sent

 

Time flies like an arrow

Fruit flies like a banana :D

 

<---------- Have I given you top advice, have I made you laugh, click on the scales, it won't hurt you! :grin:

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There you go berrylover .... you can obviously adjust to suit your circs ....but that is the letter he sent .

DATE: xx xxx xxxx

 

Re. Claim no. xxxxxxxx

In xxxxxx County Court

 

XXXXX XXXXXX

 

-V-

 

 

HSBC BANK PLC

 

 

With reference to my claim for the refund of bank charges dated x xxx xxxx which was stayed by the court on xx xxx xxxx to await the outcome of the Test Case brought against the banks by the Office of Fair Trading ;

 

As you may be aware the Supreme Court pronounced its verdict on 25/11/09 and has indicated within its judgment that a challenge to the “fairness” of my banking contract under regulation 5 of the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999(UTCCR) may be an appropriate way of seeking redress.

 

My initial claim was centered on regulation 5 of the UTCCR and as such it is not affected by the Supreme Court judgment.

 

I would therefore respectfully request that the stay be lifted, any necessary directions be given and a date be given to hear my claim

 

Yours faithfully

 

If the forum here finds that the POCs need adjustment ....i.e. specific clause within Reg 5 then he'll have time to adjust it before a hearing.... he just wanted to get things moving .......

btw , the heading 'xxxx v HSBC Bank plc ' should be centred ... I can't get it to stay there at the moment :grin:

Edited by johnnymitch
Tidying up font markings......
  • Haha 1

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Having said that berrylover , I would draw your attention to the Headline announcement above this site , which advocates waiting until the legal team can produce fresh advice on how to proceed ... with revised POCs if necessary .

 

The Consumer Forums - Announcements in Forum : HSBC Bank

Edited by johnnymitch

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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strange ...... that 'legal team ' above was originally leagal seagulls (with legal correctly spelt ! )- it always comes up 'I'm an orange' for some weird reason ..... :confused:

Edited by johnnymitch

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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