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    • now do you want help or just come here to rant at the 1st chance. is this indictive of why you have this issue with BG? there isn't one really just you being pedantic? now give us a chance to decide lets have some info. we don't accept .jpg picture files as they are displayed directly to screen whereby anyone members or not can see them, hence we require a multipage pdf properly redacted. theres a good upload guide to read on that. so ball is your court... we still would help our worst enemy regardless . dx
    • doh sorry was on phone screen. i think thats all ok,  let @AndyOrch confirm 1st please. dx  
    • Same date as poc then i dont like the agreement either, it just smells to me, but i can't find a like one of that era to compare against. this is only 10yrs old, so weight that up, i'd say enforceable & most are from the ear as a whole here. it cant be a recon as they must state so, and it wouldn't/doesn't need to have a tickbox+typed name to be so either. >80% loss if you go fwd, unless you can pay the CCJ within 30 days of judgement in FULL, might be time to consider a tomlin/consent, as much as i hate link, if you don't want to gamble on a very small chance of a win or can't pay within 30 days if you lose. what date is the hearing? dx    
    • Hi T911 and welcome to CAG. As you say, an interesting screw up. So much for quality control! Anyway, our regular advice is to ignore all of their increasingly threatening missives... UNLESS you get a letter of claim, then come back here and we'll help you write a "snotty letter" to help them decide whether to take it any further with their stoopid pics. If you get mail you're unsure of, just upload it for the team to have a look.
    • Thanks @lolerzthat's an extremely helpful post. There is no mention of a permit scheme in the lease and likewise, no variation was made to bring this system in. I recall seeing something like a quiet enjoyment clause, but will need to re-read it and confirm. VERY interesting point on the 1987 Act. There hasn't been an AGM in years and I've tried to get one to start to no avail. However, I'll aim to find out more about how the PPC was brought in and revert. Can I test with you and others on the logic of not parking for a few months? I'm ready to fight OPS, so if they go nuclear on me then surely it doesn't matter? I assume that I will keep getting PCNs as long as I live here, so it doesn't make sense for me to change the way that I park?  Unless... You are suggesting that having 5 or so outstanding PCNs, will negatively affect any court case e.g. through bad optics? Or are we trying to force their hand to go to court with only 2 outstanding PCNs?
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Welcome Finance Unenforceable Loan ??


dantripled
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well i received a letter yesterday with full statement of account and a CCA from an old loan, which was settled before the one i am disputing. So i still have no CCA for the current loan, i have today sent the account in dispute letter to compliance and copied my local branch in and sent both by recorded delivery. I have just cancelled my DD also so we'll see what they start playing at now!!!!

 

Can someone please upload a copy of the telephone harrassment letter for me ASAP as i expect to start receiving calls as of tomorrow and would like to be prepared. Thanks guys

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Account in dispute letter was sent recorded on 3rd November and DD was also cancelled on same day, but have had NO contact from Welcome whatsoever. However, i did receive a flyer/letter saying that my local branch has relocated!!!!!!!!!

 

As it will be coming up for 14 days, what do you suggest i do next anyone please????

 

thanks

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Hi Dantripled,

I'd give it a little while longer before sending much else off as they're always late to respond to anything. I have no dealings with Welcome myself but we all know in general that finance companies are pretty slack so I'd save yourself some time and just send a letter off after a month or so, the 14 day deadline doesn't mean anything to them anyway.

 

If you're thinking of eventually taking legal action then you could perhaps adopt a more rigid approach and send the 14 day letter off just to cover yourself completely but with all things take it easy. The court will only frown on an overzealous litigant in person so dot the i's and cross the t's in the meantime and keep us all up to date. :D

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well i'm completely stressed out with all this now!!!!!! Post where are you???? some much needed advice would be appreciated, here goes:-

 

i'll start from beginning, weeks and weeks ago when i spoke to my account manager from local branch requesting CCA, he had an inkling that i was going to go for unenforceable loan and he basically said if i try that then welcome would go for the loan prior to this one as it was a re-write, i said he couldn't do that as that loan was clearly settled (with this new one mind you but still settled)....

 

anyways i received a letter today from welcome finance recorded delivery thanking me again for my SAR request and enclosing a CCA copy from previous loan (the one that is cleared/settled) and a clear note underneath bold and underlined saying "PLEASE NOTE THIS AGREEMENT ACC NO: XXXXX WAS RE-WROTE WITH ACC NO: XXXXXX, SO PLEASE REGARD THIS ETC... AS ORIGINAL LOAN CCA AGREEMENT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

This is clearly not the agreement i am querying as yes this was a re-write but it was settled in Nov 2005 and a new loan started for more months and lower payments etc.... so how can they try and fob me off with this as my CCA for current loan??????? For a start they both have different customer and account numbers on!!!!!!!!!!

 

I decided to contact land registry and check on the charge which is on my property. The only charge on there is from an earlier loan in march 2004 (progressive financial), which is now settled also. I spoke to an advisor at land registry to ask why my re-write from Nov 2005 is not showing, she basically said that welcome are not forced to update the details, however it might have just carried over to new loan????

 

I basically explained my situation to the lady who was extremely helpful, and although she cannot offer legal advice, she did say maybe i should try to write to welcome with a copy of Land Registry charge and Equifax report, which shows March 2004 loan as settled, and ask them to remove charge asap. If they decide to say no as this is carried over to new loan, then they would have to provide proof to land registry that i owe them money for Nov 2005 loan, and as they can't find CCA or won't provide it, then they are not able to enforce charge. Don't know if this makes sense to anyone, but i can see where she is coming from, what does anyone else think???? and do you know of a standard/legal letter that i can send regarding removal of charge.....

 

I am not too worried about the above part of this very long message as i am confident that they can't pursue me for an old CCA which has clearly been settled, but i am now slightly rattled by the Legal Charge on my property and would like to get this removed ASAP.

 

Any advice/help would be greatly appreciated, thanks again guys

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anyways i received a letter today from welcome finance recorded delivery thanking me again for my SAR request and enclosing a CCA copy from previous loan (the one that is cleared/settled) and a clear note underneath bold and underlined saying "PLEASE NOTE THIS AGREEMENT ACC NO: XXXXX WAS RE-WROTE WITH ACC NO: XXXXXX, SO PLEASE REGARD THIS ETC... AS ORIGINAL LOAN CCA AGREEMENT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

This is clearly not the agreement i am querying as yes this was a re-write but it was settled in Nov 2005 and a new loan started for more months and lower payments etc.... so how can they try and fob me off with this as my CCA for current loan??????? For a start they both have different customer and account numbers on!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I totally agree with you, but admire this latest example of Welcomes cheek and downright incompetance!

 

I dont think youll have a problem sorting this, but someone like Postggj would perhaps know more (I suspect he will have a field day with this latest development!)

 

Just out of interest, do you have the previous (settled) CCA? It would be funny if this was even more unenforceable than the latest one :grin:

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hi there, yes i do have previous CCA, but am reluctant to challenge this yet until this one is sorted, i have today filed a complaint with the ombudsman, who has taken the case on board. He has advised that until the matter is resolved i have no further contact with Welcome (suits me fine)!!!!!

 

They have now got until the 20th Dec 2009 (8 weeks from my first correspondence) to supply me with a final response. If they don't then the ombudsman will pursue it further. So lets just hang in there and enjoy christmas ha ha

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well i'm completely stressed out with all this now!!!!!! Post where are you???? some much needed advice would be appreciated, here goes:-

 

i'll start from beginning, weeks and weeks ago when i spoke to my account manager from local branch requesting CCA, he had an inkling that i was going to go for unenforceable loan and he basically said if i try that then welcome would go for the loan prior to this one as it was a re-write, i said he couldn't do that as that loan was clearly settled (with this new one mind you but still settled)....

 

anyways i received a letter today from welcome finance recorded delivery thanking me again for my SAR request and enclosing a CCA copy from previous loan (the one that is cleared/settled) and a clear note underneath bold and underlined saying "PLEASE NOTE THIS AGREEMENT ACC NO: XXXXX WAS RE-WROTE WITH ACC NO: XXXXXX, SO PLEASE REGARD THIS ETC... AS ORIGINAL LOAN CCA AGREEMENT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

This is clearly not the agreement i am querying as yes this was a re-write but it was settled in Nov 2005 and a new loan started for more months and lower payments etc.... so how can they try and fob me off with this as my CCA for current loan??????? For a start they both have different customer and account numbers on!!!!!!!!!!

 

I decided to contact land registry and check on the charge which is on my property. The only charge on there is from an earlier loan in march 2004 (progressive financial), which is now settled also. I spoke to an advisor at land registry to ask why my re-write from Nov 2005 is not showing, she basically said that welcome are not forced to update the details, however it might have just carried over to new loan????

 

I basically explained my situation to the lady who was extremely helpful, and although she cannot offer legal advice, she did say maybe i should try to write to welcome with a copy of Land Registry charge and Equifax report, which shows March 2004 loan as settled, and ask them to remove charge asap. If they decide to say no as this is carried over to new loan, then they would have to provide proof to land registry that i owe them money for Nov 2005 loan, and as they can't find CCA or won't provide it, then they are not able to enforce charge. Don't know if this makes sense to anyone, but i can see where she is coming from, what does anyone else think???? and do you know of a standard/legal letter that i can send regarding removal of charge.....

 

I am not too worried about the above part of this very long message as i am confident that they can't pursue me for an old CCA which has clearly been settled, but i am now slightly rattled by the Legal Charge on my property and would like to get this removed ASAP.

 

Any advice/help would be greatly appreciated, thanks again guys

 

Hello dantripled. I have the same situation it seems, and I had the same conversation with a lovely lady at Land Registry, with basically the same advice. If the loan that had the second charge has security is paid off then that is that security finished. The security can`t just carry on, it is worthless. If there is to be a new loan with a charge to it, then that charge has to be a new one. As far as Land Registry are concerned they can swivel ( my words, not hers).

 

How to get the charge removed is a problem though. I can`t remember whose thread I read it on, but the advice was that WFScum would have to give their permission for it to be removed. Stupid I know, but apparently, even a court can not order it to be removed.

 

I know that`s not much help, but it does back up what we have both been told. Good Luck dan.

 

Cheers, MARK

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well i'm completely stressed out with all this now!!!!!! Post where are you???? some much needed advice would be appreciated, here goes:-

 

i'll start from beginning, weeks and weeks ago when i spoke to my account manager from local branch requesting CCA, he had an inkling that i was going to go for unenforceable loan and he basically said if i try that then welcome would go for the loan prior to this one as it was a re-write, i said he couldn't do that as that loan was clearly settled (with this new one mind you but still settled)....

 

anyways i received a letter today from welcome finance recorded delivery thanking me again for my SAR request and enclosing a CCA copy from previous loan (the one that is cleared/settled) and a clear note underneath bold and underlined saying "PLEASE NOTE THIS AGREEMENT ACC NO: XXXXX WAS RE-WROTE WITH ACC NO: XXXXXX, SO PLEASE REGARD THIS ETC... AS ORIGINAL LOAN CCA AGREEMENT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

This is clearly not the agreement i am querying as yes this was a re-write but it was settled in Nov 2005 and a new loan started for more months and lower payments etc.... so how can they try and fob me off with this as my CCA for current loan??????? For a start they both have different customer and account numbers on!!!!!!!!!!

 

I decided to contact land registry and check on the charge which is on my property. The only charge on there is from an earlier loan in march 2004 (progressive financial), which is now settled also. I spoke to an advisor at land registry to ask why my re-write from Nov 2005 is not showing, she basically said that welcome are not forced to update the details, however it might have just carried over to new loan????

 

I basically explained my situation to the lady who was extremely helpful, and although she cannot offer legal advice, she did say maybe i should try to write to welcome with a copy of Land Registry charge and Equifax report, which shows March 2004 loan as settled, and ask them to remove charge asap. If they decide to say no as this is carried over to new loan, then they would have to provide proof to land registry that i owe them money for Nov 2005 loan, and as they can't find CCA or won't provide it, then they are not able to enforce charge. Don't know if this makes sense to anyone, but i can see where she is coming from, what does anyone else think???? and do you know of a standard/legal letter that i can send regarding removal of charge.....

 

I am not too worried about the above part of this very long message as i am confident that they can't pursue me for an old CCA which has clearly been settled, but i am now slightly rattled by the Legal Charge on my property and would like to get this removed ASAP.

 

Any advice/help would be greatly appreciated, thanks again guys

 

Ignore the branch and go straight to Compliance - the branches will do anything to get their cash.

 

Once the agreement is re-written, the old one is void, it means nothing. He's either thick or trying his luck, I would say a mixture of the 2.

 

When you go to Compliance, make sure they know exactly what you've been told by their branch and let them know that if you do not receive a satisfactory response and your CCA, you'll go straight to the FOS.

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thanks for that, i thought as much.

 

I have today however received a final response from welcome regarding my complaint and they have again enclosed an unsigned computer print-out of agreement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

then a paragraph at bottom of letter saying, if you are not happy with this please get in touch with FOS, which i already have, complete numptys!!!!

 

It has since come to light to me also that my statement of account has total different charge for credit amount on it than the CCA they are trying to fob me off with!!!! The CCA they are trying to fob me off with also has my new name on there instead of maiden name, which is what i took loan out in

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not sure about that pears23, that's what i would like to know, cause if thats the case i really need to start making a move in getting second charge on my property taken off!!!!

 

I spoke with Land Registry and she basically says they could've transferred it to new loan, but she wasn't sure if that was case. She could only ever see a charge for a loan i took out in 2004, which has been settled. I even phoned again to get somebody different as i felt she wasn';t understanding my query and even the second lady said they have only ever registered one charge..

 

i could really do with finding out if i can get 2004 registered charge removed as i have proof of settlement, but am unsure as to how to go about it.....

 

I was thinking of writing to welcome with copy of land registry title charge and also copy of credit file, which shows 2004 loan as settled and asking them to remove it with immediate effect.

 

what are anyone else's thoughts on this???????

 

I've got a feeling that for some reason they have never logged my 2005 secured loan, and i'm pretty sure they would struggle to do it now as they can't deliver proof of my signed loan agreement, what so you all think????

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hey guys, i have my own thread going on here (welcome finance unenforceable loan????)....

 

can you tell me how you find out how many CAGGERS and GUESTS are on please, i'm intrigued to find out who or how many may be keeping an eye on my thread....:)

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Hi Dan, I can't see that it would do any harm to write to Welcome with proof that 2004 loan is settled and request that they remove charge. These idiots are so confused with the way they run things you might just get lucky.

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Hi, Dantrilpled.

I had a similar experience with welcome on car finance.

Car not fit for purpose & returned to seller. Agreement rewritten but never

signed or completed by Welcome, they tried threats and pressure,court,bailiffs,

DCA's and the like.I called at their local office and told them I would be oleased to see them in court. Never heard another word,no default or anything. Don't let them browbeat you. good luck.

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Just wondered if somebody could have a look at the below figures as i have to send in my argument to the FOS and would like to point out the reasoning behind my wanting a true copy of CCA....

 

The reconstituted CCA these cowboys have provided me is as follows:-

 

Total amount of credit: £10676.40

Monthly Payment: £151.50

Number of payments: 180

APR (variable) 16.40%

Total Charge for credit consisting of M+N+0 : £16594.36

M) acceptance fee; £0.00

N) Mortgage indemnity fee: £1174.40

O) Interest Charge: £15419.96

 

rate of interest per annum: 14.00%

 

 

however, the secured loan statement i have from day 1 clearly states the following:-

 

Amount of credit provided: £11850.80

Annual Interest Rate: 13.20%

Minimum Duration of Agreement: 180 months

 

i'm not going to put dates in case any un-welcome (excuse the pun) guests are viewing!!!!!! anyway the opening balance is £10676.40, then on same date mortgage indemnity fee of £1174.70 has been added, so it clearly looks like from day 1 of this secured loan, i have clearly been paying interest on the sum of £1174.70!!!!!!!!!!!!!! can someone please clarify that this is against the law before i start on my mission...

 

 

In my eyes, the top and bottom of it is,

 

a) my reconstituted CCA has a total different charge for credit figure than my secured loan statement!!!!

 

b) the annual interest rate on both documents is different

 

c) the reconstitued CCA has my married name on as opposed to maiden name, in which i took loan out

 

Not too good with the figures part of it, but even i can see that something isn't right.

 

The FOS guy i spoke with basically said, "what do you aim to achieve from our involvement"??? he wasn't being funny, he was basically preparing me for the questions i would be asked down the line.

 

He also asked "what is your reasoning behind putting account into dispute"???

 

My supporting documentation for the FOS, will clearly state the following:-

 

After hitting financial difficulty and missing numerous payments, i was firstly amazed to find that after a year nobody within welcome has informed me that the interest being added each month was more than my monthly payment!!!!!

 

After paying in almost £5,000 over the past 3 and half years, i am again confused as to why my original loan of £10676.40 (or is it £11850.80), still stands at over £14,000!!!!!!!!

 

I have decided to question welcome regarding charges etc... and also requested true and executed copy of my CCA, to which they are unable to provide!!!!!

 

 

basically, need i go on?????? there is a lot more in-depth things i will be putting forward to the FOS but what do you all think???? do i have a good case here....

 

personally, i would be happy if welcome just called it quits, removed all information regarding myself i.e. credit reports etc... and removed the charge from my propety, that would make my day, but after looking into the figures above, i'm not so sure now.....:confused::confused:

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Hi Dan, I am no expert but reading over your thread you have a very good reason for putting account in dispute.

 

1. You paid for SAR and CCA they did not comply.

2.You have tried every route possible to get Welcome to produce agreements which would show you amounts rewritten to each new agreement and perhaps go some way to explain why you owe the amount they say and why your balance has never reduced.

As I see it you are working blind,they can say you owe anything but will not

provide any proof.

Just tell the FOS exactly what you have told on your thread, send them copies of all correspondence which has been sent to, and received from welcome.

I think you have a very good case. Good luck I would really love to see you beat these predators.

Edited by DOTCOM
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thanks for that dotcom.

 

this site and the people on here are brilliant, i accept you are no expert but all the support from people like yourself is more valuable than anything...

 

this has been going on now since June/July this year, which is about the same time i found out my husband had to go to Afghanistan, i didn't think i'd find the strength to fight this, but thanks to evry1 on here i have and believe it or not this forum keeps me going and keeps my mind off things.

 

Lets just hope my husband comes home to find we are debt free, now that would be a result!!!!!:)

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Account In Dispute

Ref:

Dear Sir/Madam

DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER - LITIGATION ADVICE

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx , the contents of which have been noted.

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

On the **DATE** I wrote to you requesting a copy of the credit agreement and other information under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79).

On **DATE** a member of your staff signed for delivery of my written request and I have an electronic proof of delivery showing their signature and the date.

To date you have failed to comply with these requests in any way, whether by confirmation of receipt of the request or by supplying the requested documents.

These documents I requested should be readily available as proof of your legal right to collect this account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

In my letter of the **DATE** I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under section 77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

This period has expired.

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

You have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

  • You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
  • You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
  • You may not pass the account to a third party.
  • You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
  • You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

Despite my letter regarding ANY communication from your company, which stated that I require ALL communications in writing, your telephone calls continue.

This behaviour constitutes harassment; the letters stated quite clearly to you that I require ALL communications in writing for future use. Do not telephone me again - remove any telephone numbers you hold for me from your systems.

Your telephone calls are in breach of the Office of Fair Trading guidelines. If you continue with them after the receipt of this letter an official complaint, together with a log recording the times and frequency of the calls will be passed both to that office and to the Trading Standards office. For your information note that ALL telephone calls are taped.

This type of debt collection method is contrary to the ‘Administration of Justice Act 1970’ in that it is intended to cause alarm and distress to the recipient. Your methods will not be tolerated. A formal complaint, containing copies of all correspondence including yours, has now been submitted to the relevant authorities. This will be relevant to questions of your fitness to hold a licence under the Consumer Credit Act, whether or not it results in a prosecution.

Take further note that continued telephone calls after the receipt of a request not to call may constitute a criminal offence under Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003.

Communicate in writing and ONLY in writing, your telephone calls will NOT be answered.

HOWEVER, CALLS WILL TRIGGER COMPLAINTS TO THE REGULATORY BODIES.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully

 

Hi dantripled. You could send this as non compliance for CCA.

AND

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/129-data-protection-act-non-compliance-template-letters-

for SAR.

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