Miller Pattison - Goverment Grants legitimate?

[bigbadjim1980]

hi all,

first time posters, but found this forum by searching 'Miller Pattison cold calling'!

I've just had a very similar experience to a lot of the previous posts; a cold call with a 'surveyor' who had a look in my loft, saw there were mainly boards but plenty of excess insulation material at the edges, albeit under a fair few boxes.

However they informed me that there is a legal requirement for insulation to be 11" thick, and that I would still need further insulation. I found this rather unlikely, but she was insistent, as was her supervisor who was cavassing the houses opposite.

Having got as far as filling out the form, and asking me a series of questions they then phoned through to their office to arrange booking. It was at this stage I explained I didn't want to sign anything, but was very strongly pressured to say they could not accept me keeping the form and signing later after I'd been able to check everything out.

I felt extremely pressured, and made very uncomfortable, but did eventually get them to leave without signing anything. Now I've done some searching I'm very glad I did.

 

Does anyone know of ANY legally binding requirment for loft insulation? I've been searching for a while now but no success, other than recommendations of the 280mm (~11") they mentioned.... this all seems very suspicious to me!

 

Thanks everyone for the comments and advice.

[sonichedgehog]

Does anyone know of ANY legally binding requirment for loft insulation?

Sort of, but what you have been told is misleading/incomplete almost to the point of fraud.

 

I'm not surprised you can't find the legal stuff. It's buried deep in the "Approved Documents" that (long story short here)Building Inspectors apply in assessing new build and building work (which includes loft insulation). You can find something related to the rubbish you have been told at

planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADL1B_2010.pdf page 17. (I have only I post so can't do this as a hyperlink)

You will immediately see that it doesn't refer to any depth of material. That's because HM government require that building elements eg roofs have something called U values- simply, 1 square metre of roof has to transmit heat at no more than a specified rate.

 

Manufacturers of loft insulation publish u values for their material. If 275mm/ 11 in. of our friends' preferred material complies with the specified u value (which it probably does) there you have it.

 

If you build a new house, extension, or do some work to an existing house which is defined as "building work" within the legislation (and that's a story for another day!) then you are required to notify the relevant authority, i.e. the council's building control dept., and they will apply the Approved Documents in assessing whether what you have proposed will comply.

 

If you don't do any work, then you have no obligation whatsoever to comply with the Approved Documents. That's all there is to it.

 

If anyone tells you to sign before you read/check/think about it, that should be the end of the conversation. You were of course quite right to get them to leave.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited November 9, 2011 by sonichedgehog
making it clearer

[bigbadjim1980]

Wow, that's great, thanks sonichedgehog!

 

Just to check does laying loft insulation or laying loft boards count as a 'building work' under these regulations?

 

In my case the original updated insulation was done ~5yrs ago by a company organised by previous owner (on a council grant I believe). The loft boards I laid, but only over the middle section of the loft whilst stuffing as much insulation between rafters as I could!

 

Definitely sounds like I've been conned at, or at least very badly misinformed. Everyone beware!

[sonichedgehog]

No, bigbadjim, it's not... Building Regulations 2000 s3 (see httpwwwlegislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2531/regulation/3/made), the relevant work relates mainly to stability, fire safety, and access. Many other alterations including insulation don't carry any legal requirement.

Seriously, loft and cavity wall insulation is a really good thing... these are often the most cost effective forms of energy saving. It would be just great if you could get a small grant from your local authority, as it used to be, to do the work yourself, or employ someone. The abuses reported here are deterring people from getting this work done:x

[Mpl fitter]

The cold calling antics of miller pattison are not what they seem. Miller pattison (a trading style of SIG Energy Management, owned by SIG Plc, a ftse250 company) mpl herein, acquire thier head of work by purchasing orders acquired by freelance surveying firms.

The case is the same for all the big national insulation firms, bad surveys, reports of misleading info and pressure selling do get back to the firms thou unfortunately these survey companies generate so much work in thier relentless door knocking, the big insulation firms cannot do without them.

they say they are calling on behalf / working for mpl/British gas/Eon As a trust gainer, in fact they are an army of middlemen.

 

Thou, beyond the cold calling, the grants and utility supplier subsidies are real, google "carbon emissions reduction target" ot "CERT" and understand why your energy supplier is paying for upto 100% of the cost, basically because they are obligated to by central government.

 

Mpl have a handful of in-house surveyors who respond to incoming enquirys (not door knocking).

[sattaj]

I've become a user of this forum specifically to report a good experience with the loft insulation service offered by SIG Energy.

 

This was for top up loft insulation (100% subsidised) in the London Borough of Sutton with a team operating from the Reading branch. The work was completed and no mention of any extra charges was made by anybody I came in contact with at any time.

 

I was visiting my now elderly mother when a canvasser called to promote the installation of loft installation. I am wary of cold callers but as this was something that I had in mind I agreed to see the surveyor who was out with the canvassing team. This method of working reflects the experience of others who have posted on this site. I guess that there are many (lowly paid) canvassers doing the door to door stuff and one member of the team to assess whether the insulation can be fitted free.

 

Both the canvasser and the surveyor were polite and not at all pushy, unlike others I have read about in other posts. The information was clear, the information pack left behind gave all the information including the fact that SIG Energy Management use Miller Pattison for their installations. A letter was sent to confirm the installation date which was different from the original provisional one made on the day of the survey but I was able easily to contact the main office and change the date to a more convenient one. A confirmation of the revised date was sent. I wanted to be around rather than have my Mother cope with the visit as it has got to the stage where I feel she would be vulnerable to any poor practice.

 

Only on the day of installation did I look up any forums on SIG energy whilst I was waiting for them to arrive. I was concerned reading the reports of others. However, the two workers arrived within the time window, worked efficiently, completed the job and even included a small area of boarding to gain access to the water tank at no extra cost (even though the letter said that boarding may be chargeable). I was invited to inspect the work before they left. There was no hard sell or soft sell for any other services and the two workers did not even want to be refreshed with tea and biscuits!

 

Overall I have no complaints at all with the way the work was carried out or the original approach of the company.

I guess the reputation of the company is only as good as the front line workers who interface with the public but I am happy to report that I experienced none of the problems listed by others in this thread.

[mcustomer]

Hi,

 

Miller Pattison knocked my nans door last month, and i have since found out they are doing the loft insulation, she says its free part of the goverment grants, i know these grants exist but are Miller Pattison a legitimate company.

 

 

 

Head Office

6 Park Square

Thorncliffe Park

Chapeltown

Sheffield

S35 2PH

 

T: 01142 404370

F: 01142 404380

 

 

i have looked at some of the paperwork and non of it mentions the grants!

 

 

ANY information / experiances, i would be very gratfull.

 

Thanks

 

If you are able to get into your loft and roll out some insulation yourself I would avoid this company. We had SIG/ miller pattison energy management based in ivybridge come to do ours. It was free through a government based scheme. We really wish we never bothered.

 

The first person for the inspection turned up half an hour after the latest time and noone even bothered to call. On the first appointment for the loft insultation they never turned up and didn't contact us, on the second appointment they again didn't turn up. On the third appointment that had been booked for a fixed time because we had been messed around so much they turned up half an hour late.

 

The woman we spoke to in the office said oh they had to speak to a supervisor that's why they are late (like that is our problem!), the man then turned up and was extremely rude, when I asked how long it would take because they were supposed to be here at 8 and I had to leave for work I was told 45 minutes longer than I had previously been told. When he said he was called back I said that's not really my problem I've been waiting here since 8 and this is the 4th appointment people have either not turned up or have arrived late. His response to that it was that it was not his problem.

 

He was extremely rude and made a woman in her house on her own feel very uncomfortable letting them in. He said that he could check how long it would take and then walked off shouting actually I won't bother. I assume it was only because of his more pleasant and polite younger (got the impression more junior) colleague that he returned.

 

I really wish we went to wickes and bought one roll getting 4 free. It would have saved us taking 4 days off work which has actually cost us a lot more than the £10 it would have cost at wickes.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Conniff

[Conniff]

Welcome to the forum mcustomer.

 

Not an unusual tale. We have had numerous calls and I always tell them that I don't need them as I enjoy being cold and paying high fuel bills, then I shut the door on them.

[alanna]

My brother works on behalf of Miller Patterson and this is not the case what so ever. Payment would only be exchanged on completion of the work. I have recently bought a house and had my Loft and wall insulations done. It cost me £348 in total and they did a really good job. The whole message that you have written is completely wrong and infact it angers me that you are giving this respectable company a bad name. Who ever has come round to your house would have not been working for Miller Patterson and if they were would have had id!!!

 

Well my advice to everyone is to be very careful when dealing with Miller Pattison and their workmenship!! I hade cavity wall done in 2004 which has resulted in extreme dampness and a lot of expense to put right. Of course Miller Pattison have been sued by many and have appeared on XRAY and WATCHDOG due to their bad workmanship, I only wish I had known sooner!

 

Last week they finally admitted liability and came to sort my cavity which had only been half filled in 2004 when obviously it should have been completely filled - So a respectable company I THINK NOT when they did half a job leaving voids in the cavity to draw in dampness. Now starts my fight for compensation to rectify the damage done to my interior. Also, I have never seen any ID other than a van with Miller Pattison on it although they are now trading as SRG Management ???? Wait a few years then comment on their workmanship!

[alanna]

Same issues with our house, installation in 2004 severe dampness ever since. After a lot of hassle to get them to call out they finally arrives last week and confirmed the house had not been filled correctly, the rockwool installed had been done with an extreme number of voids causing damp spots. They have refilled our cavity and I am now going to chase them for compensation and damage to my interior walls over the last 7 years. Very bad workmanship, would never recommend.

[sandbank]

Miller Pattison are part of the SiG Energy Management Group and have been contracted by the French-owned energy company EDF to carry out free insulation for qualifying properties in the UK. We qualified because the thickness of insulation in our loft was below the minimum standards and because I am an OAP (I had to send SiG a copy of my birth certificate to prove it!). Having cleared all the entitlement hurdles (even though we are not EDF customers and don't take our power from them) SiG sent a surveyor around to take a look at the loft space. He turned up on time . It was a rather quick examination - but he said (and they made clear in the paperwork) that the loft would have to be cleared of stuff stored up there before they could install the additional insulation (they leave the existing insulation in place). They then made an appointment to install on February 6th One factor you need to bear in mind is that if you do need to use your loft for storage - and you have a boarded area up there - it's still OK and you still qualify for free insulation provided no more than 25% of the loft is boarded over. Where the loft is boarded over they will leave free of insulation. That's because the insulation material they install is so thick it is way above the height of the rafters. You don't want to squash the insulation beneath a board because that will put pressure on the ceiling boards beneath. Two guys arrived at the appointed time on the appointed day - and even phoned us on their mobiel phone to tell us they were on their way . (They told me later that a lot of householders make bookings and then aren't there on the booked date adn time to admit them to the premises ) . They carried out the installation of the new insulation and completed the job in less than three hours. They also replaced the lagging on the water tank and insulated all the water pipes in the loft and even insulated the trap door leading into the laft. They also stapled notices on the beams in the loft warning anyone going up there not to step on anything other than boards or rafters and also left a certificate - again stapled in place for the benefit of possible future owners of our home - specifying the type of insulation they had used. They also worked around the boarded areas so that we can put the stuff up there which we were originally storing in the loft. All in all we were satisfied with what they did - and of course it was all free.It seemed the installers were well trained to do the job and did it thoroughly. By the way we didn't ask to have cavity-wall insulation installed (alrthough we could have had that installed too free of charge). The reason we didn't is that building experts do not think cavity wall insulation is ever a good idea. That cavity is there for a reason - to separate the cold outer wall from the warm inner wall. You will risk bridging that gap and making the inner wall damp if you install cavity insulation. Don't do it . Look at Jeff Howells's articles in the Daily Telegraph and he will back up what I say.

Edited February 19, 2012 by sandbank

[Norbert Broadsword]

SIG are one of the shoddiest companies I have ever had to deal with. We qualify for the free insulation and booked an appointment for a survey. A bloke turned up and looked around the loft and did some diagrams. An appointment was booked for the loft insulation to be done. A team turned up, took one look at the loft and said that they hadn't come equipped to do this job and that the survey was wrong. They left saying that they would reschedule. Since then we have heard nothing. We have called numerous times, emailed and written and, so far, only one woman has bothered to respond. So today I am taking this further. It would appear that they are quite happy to grab as much of the grant money as possible to do the simple little jobs, generate lots of statistics about how great they are and sod those of us with slightly more complicated (but equally valid) jobs. I loathe companies who behave like this.

[Antigone123]

I cannot see them on the direct.gov website as a partner.

 

i was hoping for someone with an experiance with them

 

 

 

 

 

21572931

Miller Pattison insulated my elderly mothers loft/pipes/cold water tank some three years ago.Unbeknown to us my mums ball cock valve on her cold water tank had a drip leak,ordinarily not a problem as most of them develop a drip leak,and when there is somebody living in the house and the water is being used daily, nobody is aware of it and the leak never gets as far as the overflow pipe.HOWEVER,my mum was very ill and it was decided she would stay with my sister for a period,leaving the house unoccupied.My brother took her to my sisters and didn't think to turn the water off ,pre-occupied with my mums health.the drip leak over a period of 10 days built up within the tank,got to the overflow and ran throught it straight into my mums loft,because the Miller Pattison fitters had forgotten to re-attach the overflow pipe to the tank after removing it to fit the cold water tank jacket.I have phoned the head office 3 times over a two month period,and was promised an inspection but so far nothing.I e-mailed the local branch and they haven't even acknowledged my e-mail.Had to get the plumbers in (costly),and had to redecorate the ceiling myself.My mum has Alzheimers and doesnt understand about the problem with the cold water tank,she thinks the water came in through her roof,and now everytime it rains she thinks her ceiling is going to leak and lays awake worrying.Avoid this company at all costs they are rubbish people.