MBNA - say defaulted me but send a default notice???

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Willtheywontthey,

As above, it's your thread and we can only advise, it's your decision in the end.

At least now hopefully it will be a more informed one

Good luck with it whichever route you choose

Elsa x

[Winged Piglet]

Hi Teaboy2 -no the card wasn't with Abbey.

 

I think that you need to actually pin MBNA on the matter of selling on your debt- are you actually 100% sure they have sold it on as they told us excatly the same thing - in fact they said it was sold on in the middle of sending the default notice - muppets. They insisted and insisted giving me dates etc but they DO lie!! Ask MBNA date sold, when notice of assignment sent - if they are saying that they have sold it to Debt Litigation and Recovery Services they have not sold it as they are part of MBNA (Bank America) but they will not admit that they are. I called them they said no, then as posted above one of the MBNA numpties let slip that they were part of the group and that the debt was not sold to them MBNA are their clients.

 

Currently status is:-

1)Massive complaint with Complaints Team - response soon but won't hold my breath!

2)Have informed OFT via Credit Fitness warning them of their practises which has been taken seriously as they don't normally look at 'individual' cases and have sent further info to them to help their enquiries.

3) MBNA disappeared from both credit files for present time.

 

Will see what their response is for my next move - but believe me they are not getting away with this!

 

 

I would suggest you do same:- email them at [email protected] and mark it for the attention of the Credit Fitness team. Their response time is 10 working days.

 

Have you had any other paperwork or anything sent to you since receiving the DN notice?

 

The DN did not give the required 14 days as you state for the reasons above. Date of notice 12th - End time 29th August and no other DN's ever issued. Not to mention form and content wrong with ref: to capitalisation of statements in bold and underlined does not conform. The reason is that if the underlined words are also in bold as the rest of the statement, then they need to be given prominence further so body of capitilsed text in statement should be in normal but in capitals and the underlined words whould be in bold and underlined - phew! This is a pedantic point but it does state this in the Consumer credit Act so that is what the law decrees. Also don't forget that the total amount they are asking for contains penalties and charges etc.

 

Really this is the sort of content which should be in a termination notice or formal demand - they seemed to have got confused. DN's should point out the breach of agreement ie missed contractual payments. Once the DN remedy date expires then a letter with this content i.e. asking for whole balance and saying that they have registered the default (that has now occured) and by asking for the balalnce including the statement about termination and closing account etc. MBNA have it all a**e over t*t!

[Winged Piglet]

Hi - again

 

Have just looked at some letters dated prior to the DN sent to OH. They all use the term charge off or account to be charged off which is in fact an American accounting term meaning that the debt is uncollectable and will be sent to a collection agent. The term charge off replaces default on american credit files and is the marker that they place. I honestly believe that MBNA being Bank of America do not know the UK system of lawful procedures which would account fo the ridiculous hashed DNs they keep sending out.

 

I know it seems hard to believe (well not really seeing what I have experienced so far), but any thoughts anyone?

[nuke em]

Hi Willtheywontthey,

As above, it's your thread and we can only advise, it's your decision in the end.

At least now hopefully it will be a more informed one

Good luck with it whichever route you choose

Elsa x

 

 

i agree !

[alfwithhair]

Hi - again

 

Have just looked at some letters dated prior to the DN sent to OH. They all use the term charge off or account to be charged off which is in fact an American accounting term meaning that the debt is uncollectable and will be sent to a collection agent. The term charge off replaces default on american credit files and is the marker that they place. I honestly believe that MBNA being Bank of America do not know the UK system of lawful procedures which would account fo the ridiculous hashed DNs they keep sending out.

 

I know it seems hard to believe (well not really seeing what I have experienced so far), but any thoughts anyone?

 

I have system notes from MBNA indicating the same entry, 'account charged off' then a DN issued sometime after quoting a different account number. They rearly are a pain in the preverbial to deal with. They change their mind like the wind and they blatantly tell you they didn't say or do something, when you have the letter in front of you saying they have.

[vint1954]

Mini-update - have received a copy of the agreement only over a month late -they must have dug very deep to find this but am not worried. It's signed by OH but not by MBNA - that space is blank - as they've sent a copy and not just a 'true copy' -

 

If you feel able to post it on here, minus personal details, others cab advise in more depth. While to be an executed agreement, itdoes have to be signed by both parties, this is concidered a minor point and on it's own will not be fatal for them in court.

how come it isn't signed by them too then? Are they going to quickly sign it if they wanted to bring court action then - don't think that would look very favourable with any DJ do you - two dates several years apart? And MBNA can't sign it as they were not the original card provider.The Consumer Credit Act's definition of an executed agreement is that it must be signed by both the debtor and the creditor. Anyway looks a bit of a lash-together but is not a serious issue as the real issue is the DN.

In the DN it states that 'on or after the date shown, your account will be closed and your credit agreement terminated'. My interpretation is that they have clearly stated that the agreement has been terminated as the date for remedy has now passed.

 

That statement alone within the DN, will not be taken as termination. It states on or after the date shown. The main reasons to show a DN as faulty are:

1. Days allowed to rectify the breach. This must be 14 clear days from service of the DN. Hope you kept the envelope. These are usually sent via uk mail, with an s in the corner. This is deemed second class for service. Your DN was dated 12th August. They will need to be put to strict proof as to date of posting if that time comes. 4 days for service by this method, as apposed to RM 1st class ( excluding weekends for service ) puts your date of service at 18th August, therfore 1st clear day is the 19th, so date to remedy the breach by is 2nd october.

2. The amount stated in the DN has to be accurate to the penny. No penalty chrges etc and needs to be the amount to rectify the breach, outstanding payments.

3. Form of the notice.

Your DN seems to fail on the 2 most important points, 1 & 2.

ALSO they ask for the whole amount of the outstanding balance therefore the agreement and it's terms i.e monthly payments has been terminated and as they are asking for the whole 'outstanding balance' which if the agreement was still in force, would only be asking for the arrears/or amount of missed payments.

NB I do not pm to anyone - no reflection on you teaboy2 at all but there have been cases that 'the others' like to use this as a tactic to gain personal info - saddos that they are. Sorry but I cannot oblige.

Try to locate the envelope that this came in and keep it safe with the DN. Do not alert them at this stage to the faulty DN.

 

You need to look for a clear act of termination, indepenent from the DN. MBNA are not known for sending out termination notices, so it has to be another act, such as charging off and selling on in an absolute assignment, or additionally requesting the ballance in full. It would be a very last resort to claim that demanding the full amount in the DN was termination.

[vint1954]

Hi - again

 

Have just looked at some letters dated prior to the DN sent to OH. They all use the term charge off or account to be charged off which is in fact an American accounting term meaning that the debt is uncollectable and will be sent to a collection agent. The term charge off replaces default on american credit files and is the marker that they place. I honestly believe that MBNA being Bank of America do not know the UK system of lawful procedures which would account fo the ridiculous hashed DNs they keep sending out.

 

I know it seems hard to believe (well not really seeing what I have experienced so far), but any thoughts anyone?

When they charge it off, this is normally off of their books. It allows them to claim tax releif for the debt.

[vint1954]

I have system notes from MBNA indicating the same entry, 'account charged off' then a DN issued sometime after quoting a different account number. They rearly are a pain in the preverbial to deal with. They change their mind like the wind and they blatantly tell you they didn't say or do something, when you have the letter in front of you saying they have.

If they charge off before defaulting, they are in trouble not only with the agreement but also the tax man. With them being a pain with their systems, means that they royally mess up on aregular basis.

[teaboy2]

Hi Teaboy2 -no the card wasn't with Abbey.

 

I think that you need to actually pin MBNA on the matter of selling on your debt- are you actually 100% sure they have sold it on as they told us excatly the same thing - in fact they said it was sold on in the middle of sending the default notice - muppets. They insisted and insisted giving me dates etc but they DO lie!! Ask MBNA date sold, when notice of assignment sent - if they are saying that they have sold it to Debt Litigation and Recovery Services they have not sold it as they are part of MBNA (Bank America) but they will not admit that they are. I called them they said no, then as posted above one of the MBNA numpties let slip that they were part of the group and that the debt was not sold to them MBNA are their clients.

 

Currently status is:-

1)Massive complaint with Complaints Team - response soon but won't hold my breath!

2)Have informed OFT via Credit Fitness warning them of their practises which has been taken seriously as they don't normally look at 'individual' cases and have sent further info to them to help their enquiries.

3) MBNA disappeared from both credit files for present time.

 

Will see what their response is for my next move - but believe me they are not getting away with this!

 

 

I would suggest you do same:- email them at [email protected] and mark it for the attention of the Credit Fitness team. Their response time is 10 working days.

 

Have you had any other paperwork or anything sent to you since receiving the DN notice?

 

The DN did not give the required 14 days as you state for the reasons above. Date of notice 12th - End time 29th August and no other DN's ever issued. Not to mention form and content wrong with ref: to capitalisation of statements in bold and underlined does not conform. The reason is that if the underlined words are also in bold as the rest of the statement, then they need to be given prominence further so body of capitilsed text in statement should be in normal but in capitals and the underlined words whould be in bold and underlined - phew! This is a pedantic point but it does state this in the Consumer credit Act so that is what the law decrees. Also don't forget that the total amount they are asking for contains penalties and charges etc.

 

Really this is the sort of content which should be in a termination notice or formal demand - they seemed to have got confused. DN's should point out the breach of agreement ie missed contractual payments. Once the DN remedy date expires then a letter with this content i.e. asking for whole balance and saying that they have registered the default (that has now occured) and by asking for the balalnce including the statement about termination and closing account etc. MBNA have it all a**e over t*t!

 

Hi winged piglet

 

I did call mbna and asked and i was first told that the account was sold on 23rd july 2009 which would confirm what the DCA was saying about their cleint Varde investments limited purchasing the debt in the end july 2009. i was then passed on to another mbna employee to discuss the defective DN and the selling of the accoint prior to the DN only to be told that the account was sold on the 17th august (deadline on my DN being the 29th) and agreement was only terminated on the 23rd july (or somthing along those lines). so i send a letter to mbna complaining about defective DN, unlawful termination of contract qouting case law and asking them on how intend to deal with it. also making clear to them that i do not and will never give my consent to the reinsatment of contract. i also informed them that i had never recieved any notices of assignment or a termination notice and requested them to remove any notes placed on my credit file.

 

So looks like i am in exactly the same boat as you as our DN appear to be worded exactly the same and it appears the DN's were issued after teh account being sold or terminated.

 

so far only reponse from MBNA was actually from abbey stating that they are investigating my compliant and will be back in touch with me no later then the 9th october. in the mean time i SAJ them so i will have cpies of all documents relating to the accont including those referring to any sale. thats if they comply with the Subject access request.

 

I will defiantly be reported them to the OFT but i will wait to see what their full response to my complaint is first as they will probably be muppets and mess that up which will give me even more firepower to throw at them lol.

 

Keep an eye on my thread that i linked to in my earlier posts as ill be updating it when i recieve a response from them.

[Tartan Barty]

So just for clarity, what happens if you get a default put on your CRF and don't get any default notice at all??

 

I have 2 alleged accounts with the Co-op; one is unenforcable and one would need a court to (which they probably would). Have been paying the later and with holding payment on the former. Fredrickson have had a go for the last couple of months. The Co-op send through the same lame copies of the alleged agreements and then I see 2 defaults on my file from July 09. I have had no default warning letters or default notices, nothing!!!

[vint1954]

Hi winged piglet

 

I did call mbna and asked and i was first told that the account was sold on 23rd july 2009 which would confirm what the DCA was saying about their cleint Varde investments limited purchasing the debt in the end july 2009. i was then passed on to another mbna employee to discuss the defective DN and the selling of the accoint prior to the DN only to be told that the account was sold on the 17th august (deadline on my DN being the 29th) and agreement was only terminated on the 23rd july (or somthing along those lines). so i send a letter to mbna complaining about defective DN, unlawful termination of contract qouting case law and asking them on how intend to deal with it. also making clear to them that i do not and will never give my consent to the reinsatment of contract. i also informed them that i had never recieved any notices of assignment or a termination notice and requested them to remove any notes placed on my credit file.

 

So looks like i am in exactly the same boat as you as our DN appear to be worded exactly the same and it appears the DN's were issued after teh account being sold or terminated.

 

so far only reponse from MBNA was actually from abbey stating that they are investigating my compliant and will be back in touch with me no later then the 9th october. in the mean time i SAJ them so i will have cpies of all documents relating to the accont including those referring to any sale. thats if they comply with the Subject access request.

 

I will defiantly be reported them to the OFT but i will wait to see what their full response to my complaint is first as they will probably be muppets and mess that up which will give me even more firepower to throw at them lol.

 

Keep an eye on my thread that i linked to in my earlier posts as ill be updating it when i recieve a response from them.

This is a strange point teaboy2, but when a defective default notice is issued, the OC is only able to collect the arrears on the account, up to the point of the DN. As your ballance was zero when the default notice was issued, then no arrears on the account, in fact no account full stop.

[vint1954]

So just for clarity, what happens if you get a default put on your CRF and don't get any default notice at all??

 

I have 2 alleged accounts with the Co-op; one is unenforcable and one would need a court to (which they probably would). Have been paying the later and with holding payment on the former. Fredrickson have had a go for the last couple of months. The Co-op send through the same lame copies of the alleged agreements and then I see 2 defaults on my file from July 09. I have had no default warning letters or default notices, nothing!!!

Are these payment defaults as in missed payments or is there a default recorded on your file.

 

I would be inclined to SAR at this point

[Tartan Barty]

Sorry for hijacking...

 

They are defaults, CCA'd them last March and have SAR'd them already. They sent a letter saying they would not communicate any further. Then I find 2 defaults on my file before they sent that letter, and no default notices sent at all!

[teaboy2]

This is a strange point teaboy2, but when a defective default notice is issued, the OC is only able to collect the arrears on the account, up to the point of the DN. As your ballance was zero when the default notice was issued, then no arrears on the account, in fact no account full stop.

 

good point. since they sold the account prior to the default then the debt is no longer with them, so the debt to them would be 0 amount, as you said. yet they still asked for full amount in the DN despite the DN being issued after they had already sold the account. so they obviously havent got a clue of the law in the UK.

 

now that the account has been sold (regardless of weather prior or after issuing of DN), the debt is no longer owed to them. as they would have sold it for say 10% of the full amount owed and reclaimed the other 90% from the taxman. and although the debt has been sold, i have no legal obligation to pay varde investment limited, who bought the debt the amount owed on the debt. as i simply do not have a contractual agreement with varde investment as the contract was between myself and abbey credit card owned by MBNA. so varde investment limited can not legally enforce the debt as being owed to them.

[teaboy2]

Sorry for hijacking...

 

They are defaults, CCA'd them last March and have SAR'd them already. They sent a letter saying they would not communicate any further. Then I find 2 defaults on my file before they sent that letter, and no default notices sent at all!

 

hi Tartan

 

did they comply with your Subject access request and CCA? because if not and they are now refusing to communicate any further then they have commited an offence, well 2 offences. non complience of the CCA request and failure to disclose information under the data protection act.

 

if they have however provided you with both, and then said they will not communicate with you further, then did they say why? of what action they would now be taking?

 

Also fact you have not recieved any defualt notices, which is a satautory requirment to be served to you and allow you 14 days to rememdy prior to any defualt being added to your CRF (or thats how i understand it) means they must remove such defualts they have added from your file until they have actually served you with the DN's. as the defaults placed on your CRF would be unlawful without a DN being served on you. you could also infact veiw their action of placing defaults on your CDF without issuing of DN's, as constructive harrassment and claim damages for damage done to your credit file and your reputation, which may have prevented you from obtaining further credit. its worth looking into more about this before taking any action just now.

 

Have they terminated the accounts? i.e have you recieved termination notice's? or have they informed you they have terminated the accounts?

 

personally i would write to them and inform them that the defaults added to you CDF are unlawful as they failed to serve you with any defualt notices what so ever and that you request the removal of the said Defaults from your CDF (do not mention about constructive harressment just yet though). also ask them to state what their reasoning is behind their refusal to communicate further and ask them to state what they intend to do to resolve this issue. and if they have terminated the agreement make it clear to them that you do not consent to the reinstatment of any agreements, as this will prevent them from actually issuing you with valid DN's to correct what has already happened. send recorded delievery. also ask what happened to the £10 fee you sent with your subject access request. as they should not use this as payment towards the debt without your permission.

 

If they fail to comply or respond to your request then you should seek legal advice from a solicitor most of who offer a free consultation period or get a claims managment company involved that will operate on your behalf.

 

and one more thing. if they have terminated your account with out serving you a DN then it is unlawful recission of contract and as a result if it where to goto court they would according to case law be liable to pay damges of upto £1000. So i wouldnt really worry to much about them as it seems they have made a complete mess of this and as a result its all go in your favour.

Edited October 1, 2009 by teaboy2

[vint1954]

Sorry for hijacking...

 

They are defaults, CCA'd them last March and have SAR'd them already. They sent a letter saying they would not communicate any further. Then I find 2 defaults on my file before they sent that letter, and no default notices sent at all!

They must reply to your SAR by law. They cannot turn around and say we will not communicate.

 

If their 40 days are up, write and tell them that you are granting them a furthe 14 days to comply, or you will ask the courts to enforce their complience.

 

In tandem, complain to the ICO.

[vint1954]

good point. since they sold the account prior to the default then the debt is no longer with them, so the debt to them would be 0 amount, as you said. yet they still asked for full amount in the DN despite the DN being issued after they had already sold the account. so they obviously havent got a clue of the law in the UK.

 

now that the account has been sold (regardless of weather prior or after issuing of DN), the debt is no longer owed to them. as they would have sold it for say 10% of the full amount owed and reclaimed the other 90% from the taxman. and although the debt has been sold, i have no legal obligation to pay varde investment limited, who bought the debt the amount owed on the debt. as i simply do not have a contractual agreement with varde investment as the contract was between myself and abbey credit card owned by MBNA. so varde investment limited can not legally enforce the debt as being owed to them.

When Varde purchaced your account from MBNA, they purchaced the rights and responsibilities alond with it, as did MBNA, when they purchaced it off of Abbey. They now have the right to collect under the agreement, if there is one.

 

The point with the DN is, that this was issued on a closed account?, so should not have been issued. The DN is a document that must be issued by the creditor, prior to being able to terminate. You need the screen dump from an SAR, to confirm sale point.

Edited October 1, 2009 by vint1954

[Artie44]

The main reasons to show a DN as faulty are:

 

1. Days allowed to rectify the breach. This must be 14 clear days from service of the DN. Hope you kept the envelope. These are usually sent via uk mail, with an s in the corner. This is deemed second class for service. Your DN was dated 12th August. They will need to be put to strict proof as to date of posting if that time comes. 4 days for service by this method, as apposed to RM 1st class ( excluding weekends for service ) puts your date of service at 18th August, therfore 1st clear day is the 19th, so date to remedy the breach by is 2nd october.

 

2. The amount stated in the DN has to be accurate to the penny. No penalty chrges etc and needs to be the amount to rectify the breach, outstanding payments.

 

3. Form of the notice.

 

What if the DN is dated on a saturday. Does that mean the deemed day of posting is not until monday? Therefore 1st class deemed service would be Wednesday?

[teaboy2]

When Varde purchaced your account from MBNA, they purchaced the rights and responsibilities alond with it, as did MBNA, when they purchaced it off of Abbey. They now have the right to collect under the agreement, if there is one.

 

The point with the DN is, that this was issued on a closed account?, so should not have been issued. The DN is a document that must be issued by the creditor, prior to being able to terminate. You need the screen dump from an SAR, to confirm sale point.

 

as far as i know MBNA actually own abbey so they never actually purchased the account from abbey as i still recieve statements from abbey, it just appears that abbey pass on accounts for collection to MBNA collections department. i was assuming from reading information on other threads here. that if a account is purchased then their must also be a contract between myself and the new owner of the account for them to legally claim the debt. also since no notice of assignment has been recieved from either varde or MBNA and that i have not agreed to make any payments to varde or the DCA acting on vardes behalf then it is safe to assume no contract exist between myself and varde.

 

so from what i read in other threads here, varde only have ownership of the debt but no legal rights to claim the debt from me without myself specifically agreeing to enter a contract with them by agreeing to make payments to them. the following thread posted here will explain what i mean and is what i am referring to, it is very interested reading espcially the legal cases qouted in one post half way down the 1st page.

[vint1954]

What if the DN is dated on a saturday. Does that mean the deemed day of posting is not until monday? Therefore 1st class deemed service would be Wednesday?

Yes, if they are daft enough to write it on a saturday, them postage will be monday, first class delivery deemed on wednesday, so 1st clear day is thursday.

 

Shows how automated this system has become and why they fall foul of the law.

[teaboy2]

What if the DN is dated on a saturday. Does that mean the deemed day of posting is not until monday? Therefore 1st class deemed service would be Wednesday?

 

yes only working days monday to friday are taken into account. so if your defualt was dated saturday or sunday then it would be deemed to have been posted on the monday. bear in mind any postal used other than royal mail is deemed as second class post and therefore 4 workings days (2 for first class royal mail) after the date of postage most be allowed for the DN to be served. so if dated the 1st it would be deemed to have been posted on the 1st and if by second class it is deemed recieved on the 5th or incase of first class its deemed recieved on the 3rd.

 

the time between the date in which it is recieved and the date of the dead line must total no less then 14 days. i.e served second class, dated the 1st recieved and deemed recieved on the 5th, deadline most be no earlier then the 19th. if it is the DN is invalid.

[vint1954]

as far as i know MBNA actually own abbey so they never actually purchased the account from abbey as i still recieve statements from abbey, it just appears that abbey pass on accounts for collection to MBNA collections department. i was assuming from reading information on other threads here. that if a account is purchased then their must also be a contract between myself and the new owner of the account for them to legally claim the debt. also since no notice of assignment has been recieved from either varde or MBNA and that i have not agreed to make any payments to varde or the DCA acting on vardes behalf then it is safe to assume no contract exist between myself and varde.

 

so from what i read in other threads here, varde only have ownership of the debt but no legal rights to claim the debt from me without myself specifically agreeing to enter a contract with them by agreeing to make payments to them. the following thread posted here will explain what i mean and is what i am referring to, it is very interested reading espcially the legal cases qouted in one post half way down the 1st page.

No, not realy. MBNA do not own abbey. They took over the card business some while ago. It is akin to Virgin, where MBNA do all of the work as it were.

 

When a creditor sells your debt on, the agreement goes with it. This is assignment. The new owner enjoys all of the rights and responsibilities of the former owner. They have been assigned to him.

[teaboy2]

No, not realy. MBNA do not own abbey. They took over the card business some while ago. It is akin to Virgin, where MBNA do all of the work as it were.

 

When a creditor sells your debt on, the agreement goes with it. This is assignment. The new owner enjoys all of the rights and responsibilities of the former owner. They have been assigned to him.

 

well i dont suppose it really matters to me since the account was unlawfully terminated by them and no notice of assignment had been given to myself. either way unlawfully terminated or not, they had acted without infroming all parties to the original contract. it would certainly be worth looking into more given the conflicting information on the thread i linked to in my last post, to ascertain what the actual legalities are.

[vint1954]

as far as i know MBNA actually own abbey so they never actually purchased the account from abbey as i still recieve statements from abbey, it just appears that abbey pass on accounts for collection to MBNA collections department. i was assuming from reading information on other threads here. that if a account is purchased then their must also be a contract between myself and the new owner of the account for them to legally claim the debt. also since no notice of assignment has been recieved from either varde or MBNA and that i have not agreed to make any payments to varde or the DCA acting on vardes behalf then it is safe to assume no contract exist between myself and varde.

 

so from what i read in other threads here, varde only have ownership of the debt but no legal rights to claim the debt from me without myself specifically agreeing to enter a contract with them by agreeing to make payments to them. the following thread posted here will explain what i mean and is what i am referring to, it is very interested reading espcially the legal cases qouted in one post half way down the 1st page.

Had a look through that thread and again we are confusing contract law with CCA. CCA is a specific type of contract. The argument in the thread is in relationship to s10 data handling.

 

Also, would have been relevent, where a debt was over the £25k threshold for the CCA 1974.

 

The basis is correct, in that there is no contract under english civil law between a DCA and you, but they have purchaced the benefits and interests of the agreement from the OC. That in a nutshell is the right to demand the money from you. If they have purchaced an account from the OC, without an enforcable agreement, then as always, they are as screwed as the OC.

[teaboy2]

Had a look through that thread and again we are confusing contract law with CCA. CCA is a specific type of contract. The argument in the thread is in relationship to s10 data handling.

 

Also, would have been relevent, where a debt was over the £25k threshold for the CCA 1974.

 

The basis is correct, in that there is no contract under english civil law between a DCA and you, but they have purchaced the benefits and interests of the agreement from the OC. That in a nutshell is the right to demand the money from you. If they have purchaced an account from the OC, without an enforcable agreement, then as always, they are as screwed as the OC.

 

i see now well that clears that up then.

 

and yeah, you right. they are screwed since the account was purchased when it was unlawfully termintated by the MBNA.