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    • good idea take some pix and put them in a PDF read UPLOAD dx
    • thread title updated moved to overseas debt forum. sadly as they are outside any UK jurisdiction upon DCA rules which state in the UK they must not call employers, there not alot you can do to stop these scammers. make sure you totally make private ALL social media twitter/facebook/linked in etc etc as there no-way for them to findout where you work otherwise so you must have a leak somewhere. find it. your employer details arent even legally available to UK DCA's so how have they found it out to date???  simply write to the BANK informing them of your correct and current address ALWAYS!!. if you want to arrange payment or not TO THE BANK ONLY thats upto you. never ever ignore a Statutory Demand a Letter Of Claim a Court Claimform. if if if any of those ever happen. till then ignore and rewash. dx    
    • Date of issue –   13 may 2024 AOS date 31st may defence filing date 14th june plenty of lowell card claimform threads here use our enhanced google searchbox Lowell card claimform id be reading at least 5-10 threads a day. do NOT MISS your defence filing whatever happens.  
    • Hello All,  I’m hoping someone can help me urgently here. Firstly, I’d like to say I have read multiple other threads and have some what an idea of what I should be doing, however my case might be slightly different so coming with my own questions here.    my situation is I lived in Dubai and had a credit card and a loan, loan with HSBC and credit card with Emirates (or the other way round), I lost my job and was forced to leave the country as I was staying in the country on my companies visa.    since coming back, after a few years 2 different debt collections agencies have been approaching me (one being IDRW and the other J&P). I’ve never answered IDRWW and they constantly chase me by calling and messaging me and my employer. My current company is ok with this as I explained the situation but I’m soon to be joining a new company who definitely won’t be ok with being messaged and called. I’m afraid to continue to ignore them as they may message and calm the new employer as they have before and I’ll lose my job. However, it seems clear from these forums that dealing with the debt collection agencies is never a good idea. You shouldn’t agree to the amount or pay anything.    j&p caught me on my phone but I still haven't sent them any money or confirmed the amount they’re saying is owed, they keep pushing to pay off the “principal” amount by making monthly payments, from reading these forums it seems like if I make one of those payments (they have provided bank details for ENBD), then it’ll just be paying off interest and not actually clearing the principle debt and the bank won’t even approve receipt of payment or that it’s coming off principle.    this is my predicament as ignoring them might not be an option if they chase my new employer. Maybe there’s a way to ensure the debt collection agency don’t contact my new employer?? I don’t know? Massively appreciate peoples help here. Thanks, 
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Claim Stayed – Due to Unenforceable CCA Test Cases.


Blondie40
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well this has just confirmed what i said.

OFT debt collection guidance

 

Please remember the only stupid question is the one you dont ask so dont worry about asking the stupid questions.

 

Essex girl in pc world looking 4 curtains 4 her pc,the assistant says u dont need curtains 4 a computer!!Essex girl says,''HELLOOO!! i,ve got WINDOWS!!'.

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Stubie

 

If the cases are going to determine whether defaults registered with CRAs are allowed, surely that is a Data Protection issue. Is the Information Commissioner being called or taking part?

 

Hi Docman,

 

I don't know the details of the cases, sorry.

 

I posted a query about the commercial court cases on another thread and a helpful cagger supplied this info.

 

I can't remember who supplied it or which thread although it is mentioned in the TD post I linked to earlier in this thread.

 

Sorry, can't be any more help

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dont worry blondie.

 

What did the courts say?

OFT debt collection guidance

 

Please remember the only stupid question is the one you dont ask so dont worry about asking the stupid questions.

 

Essex girl in pc world looking 4 curtains 4 her pc,the assistant says u dont need curtains 4 a computer!!Essex girl says,''HELLOOO!! i,ve got WINDOWS!!'.

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interesting link there.

OFT debt collection guidance

 

Please remember the only stupid question is the one you dont ask so dont worry about asking the stupid questions.

 

Essex girl in pc world looking 4 curtains 4 her pc,the assistant says u dont need curtains 4 a computer!!Essex girl says,''HELLOOO!! i,ve got WINDOWS!!'.

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Advice from Court:

 

If object to the stay should make an application for stay to be set aside or varied.

 

Didn't feel I was going to get anywhere so just thanked them for their help.

 

Not really sure what to do next. Very confused

Edited by Blondie40
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Have seen this judgment before, in particular like:

 

9. …But this does not prevent me from drawing what is in my judgment the only inference which can possibly be drawn from what has happened, which is that the bank realises that if the issue were to be contested it would either lose on the issue or be at serious risk of losing. There may be hundreds of similar cases and the bank would plainly not wish other defaulting customers to get wind of an adverse decision on the fundamental point which is embodied in the quotation from Mr Berkley's written argument, which I have already set out.

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Blondie

 

I think the response from the court is really 'we haven't a clue what the DJ is going on about but we aren't going to ask him.'

Arrow Global/MBNA - Discontinued and paid costs

HFO/Morgan Stanley (Barclays) - Discontinued and paid costs

HSBC - Discontinued and paid costs

Nationwide - Ran for cover of stay pending OFT case 3 yrs ago

RBS/Mint - Nothing for 4 yrs after S78 request

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Blondie

 

I think the response from the court is really 'we haven't a clue what the DJ is going on about but we aren't going to ask him.'

 

Think your right on that. I wonder how may more he's stayed or is going to stay.

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Have just returned home after my court apearence for my N244 ordering Link to supply the outstanding documents.

What a waist of time, the Judge informed me and the claimant that due to the current court case being heard in Manchester by District Judge Blacksmith on the 8th Oct relating to this type of claim ( I think he was referring to the members of this Forum) and apparently his ruling is going to affect the majority of the cases on this forum . He has stayed the case and my N244 to 21 days after the court case on the 8th oct 09. Are you aware of this case.

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Have just returned home after my court apearence for my N244 ordering Link to supply the outstanding documents.

What a waist of time, the Judge informed me and the claimant that due to the current court case being heard in Manchester by District Judge Blacksmith on the 8th Oct relating to this type of claim ( I think he was referring to the members of this Forum) and apparently his ruling is going to affect the majority of the cases on this forum . He has stayed the case and my N244 to 21 days after the court case on the 8th oct 09. Are you aware of this case.

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Thanks for the link citizinB, It appears I’m not the only one.

Further to my post above.

The Judge also indicated there where a number of cases before the courts being stayed until the out come of the Manchester case .

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Last January I received a telephone call from my bank asking me if I wanted to upgrade my credit card (Opened in Aug 1997) to a more flexible account. (Me thinks my old cca is defective) Just sign this new cca. (“I’ll think about it ”)

 

Thanks for the update TD.

 

I think the banks and credit companies know they have a BIG issue here and I suspect the amounts involved will have more impact than the bank charges fiasco.

 

With bank charges, the amounts involved arose just from the charges levied on overdrawn accounts. The banks only agreed to the test case the day before they started to announce their financial results. Collectively, the accounts showed that the banks had paid back or provided for over a billion pounds and thus their argument that it was not worth defending an individual claim on commercial grounds would have been shot to pieces. The FSA would have been the only organisation with prior knowledge of the accounts of ALL the banks and I suspect that when someone did the sums, the truth dawned on the FSA and the government, hence the test case. At the time, many thought the delay caused by the test case (2 to 3 years) would provide enough time for the banks to recover the billion or so.

 

Well, it has taken over two years to date for the test case but, as we all know, the world has changed (although with the bonus levels clearly bankers haven't). The billion or so set aside to cover bank charges two years ago seems small beer now.

 

Unenforceable credit agreements are more of a problem though. First, it means the banks cash flow will be affected. They may not have to fund repayments of credit accounts as with bank charges but they will no longer have an income stream from people repaying the credit card accounts and the extortionate interest. Second, I doubt they will be able to count the balances under the agreements as assets in their balance sheets, thus requiring a further injection of capital.

 

As for the immediate future, I think it’s almost anyone’s guess. The government have removed the cause of the problem for the banks (by which I mean S 127(3) of the CCA) for post Oct 2007 agreements but that is rather like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. But that still leaves many pre Oct 2007 agreements unenforceable and remember these agreements were made during the explosion of credit facilities offered from 1997 onwards.

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Have just returned home after my court apearence for my N244 ordering Link to supply the outstanding documents.

What a waist of time, the Judge informed me and the claimant that due to the current court case being heard in Manchester by District Judge Blacksmith on the 8th Oct relating to this type of claim ( I think he was referring to the members of this Forum) and apparently his ruling is going to affect the majority of the cases on this forum . He has stayed the case and my N244 to 21 days after the court case on the 8th oct 09. Are you aware of this case.

 

Do you mind stating which couty court you went to this morning? Did the judge provide any more details of the Manchester case?

Arrow Global/MBNA - Discontinued and paid costs

HFO/Morgan Stanley (Barclays) - Discontinued and paid costs

HSBC - Discontinued and paid costs

Nationwide - Ran for cover of stay pending OFT case 3 yrs ago

RBS/Mint - Nothing for 4 yrs after S78 request

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Is this the same case as the ones from Chester County Court? In the Chester cases, I thought the judge and barristers had identified over 50 claims that were to be referred to the Commercial Court which sits in London.

 

However, it is possible that these cases are viewed as adminisrative matters, since the law itself is settled. In that case, the cases could have been referred to one of the new Administrative Courts that have been set up since April in regional centres including Manchester. Does anyone have any further information?

Arrow Global/MBNA - Discontinued and paid costs

HFO/Morgan Stanley (Barclays) - Discontinued and paid costs

HSBC - Discontinued and paid costs

Nationwide - Ran for cover of stay pending OFT case 3 yrs ago

RBS/Mint - Nothing for 4 yrs after S78 request

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Liverpool CC,

I did ask the Judge if the case in Manchester was based around the claimant not supplying the relevant documents that the claimant’s case was reliant on

He affirmed that it was. He also indicated that the claimant Might want to withdraw the case after the trial. ( I’m not going to try and read between the lines on that last statement ) Hope this Helps

 

Do you mind stating which couty court you went to this morning? Did the judge provide any more details of the Manchester case?
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letitbe

 

The Court Service do publish the list of cases before individual judges but usually only on the day or the day before the hearings.

 

You could always contact the Manchester court and explain you case has been stayed pending the outcome of a case on 8 October due to be heard by Judge Blcksmith and ask for more information. I believe the contact details for Manchester are as follows:

 

Hearings:

[email protected]

Specialist hearngs

[email protected]

Administrative Court enquiries

Administrativecourtoffice.manchester@hmcourts-service.x.gsi.gov.uk

Switchboard

0161 240 5000

New Issue and Case Management

0161 240 5329

District Judge listing

0161 240 5207

Chancery / Mercantile / TCC Listing

0161 240 5307

High / County Court Civil Listing /Diary Managers

0161 240 5300

Customer Service

0161 240 5340

Arrow Global/MBNA - Discontinued and paid costs

HFO/Morgan Stanley (Barclays) - Discontinued and paid costs

HSBC - Discontinued and paid costs

Nationwide - Ran for cover of stay pending OFT case 3 yrs ago

RBS/Mint - Nothing for 4 yrs after S78 request

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Have just spoken to the case manager at Manchester High Court. He informed me that the case has been passed to a Judge Holman. He is dealing with a Batch of cases dealing with the subject matter “unenforceability of credit card agreements with no documentary evidence supporting the claim”

Any thoughts?

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I am not sure what is going on in the Manchester case.

 

I was under the impression the Judge in Chester that has sent some test cases to London did not even get involved in the enforceability issue as none of the bank's barristers contested that they were not enforceable and the issue was only if they can record a default on a credit file if it was not enforceable and APR calculations.

 

Are they trying to say if there is no agreement at all that nobody knows if they had the prescribed conditions/signature etc? Surely this is madness to try and argue something about a contract which nobody has a true copy of?

 

Maybe it would be fun to get a transcript of the Chester hearing, if there were 50+ cases being heard at it I am sure the tape recorder would have been running. It would nice to see in transcript the banker's barristers agreeing no agreement = unenforceable (agreements before April 2007 of course).

Anyone involved in the Chester case fancy pm-ing me a claim number so I can try get it?

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Ok, these are the notes I made at the trial of DJ's comments:

 

 

This case raises a number of issue common to huge number of cases doing the rounds.

 

One CMC with over 400 claims ongoing in one court - Not a sensible use of court's time.

 

Surprised cases got as far as being listed far trial, as staying claims such as this - more practical.

 

Test cases on unenforceable agreements needed to resolve issues.

 

Civil Judges suggest stay pending test cases.

 

Rankine v Various Banks

 

Case to be heard late September which may resolve some issues.

 

Stay case until issues sorted.

 

Counsel – advise client if any more cases similar in this Court they contact Court Manager as this will affect those (also mentioned other courts in the County).

 

So, either something new is going on or he's not up to date.

 

Take it I'll get a better idea when claimant objects to stay.

 

I was advised that the CMC in point had issued a couple of thousand cases at a cost in excess of £1M despite there being a number of cases in from of a senior commercial judge.

 

This means that the jusge is most up to date

 

GK

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Have just spoken to the case manager at Manchester High Court. He informed me that the case has been passed to a Judge Holman. He is dealing with a Batch of cases dealing with the subject matter “unenforceability of credit card agreements with no documentary evidence supporting the claim”

Any thoughts?

 

 

My understanding is that these are 'no true copy cases' so very relevant to most of us I think

 

GK

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My understanding is that these are 'no true copy cases' so very relevant to most of us I think

 

GK

 

What can they do if there is no evidence of any agreement though I wonder?

 

Accept the bank's claim at face value that is was enforceable and contained the prescribed terms and conditions and was signed by the debtor?

 

Yes the banks are trustworthy, they would't do immoral things like pay the directors millions in bonuses after making huge losses, whilst sponging off the taxpayer for losing their gambling bets, etc. The only argument is do they come before or after arms dealers for being the most immoral people on earth.

 

Isn't there already evidence that a large proportion of the banks agreements that do exist don't comply with the CCA 1974 for them to be enforceable? Isn't this enough evidence to throw out accepting no evidence of an agreement on it's own?

 

I can't believe we are even discussing such a thing!

 

Edit:

 

What's to stop the bank just saying "nope, no agreement here, but it was enforceable" for every case if this gets anywhere? Why would they bother producing it ever for any claim. If the banks succeed in this it would be like declaring them God!

Edited by Ruprecht
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