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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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Claim Stayed – Due to Unenforceable CCA Test Cases.


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Unfortunately you can't rely on either the £1 CCA request nor the £10 SAR to get a signed copy of the original CCA. They only need to give the info held on it - not an actual copy. They can still recreate their own works of fiction - so that is why we need to build up a library of all unenforceable agreements for all OC's from the year dot. We don't need to post them up - just have a thread where we register what we have - so we can pm it to others as required.

 

I do hope CAG will help set this up?

 

BD

 

Others have mentioned this too - would be a fantastic resource.

I have no legal qualifications whatsoever, so please check any input I have for accuracy. And please correct me if you disagree!

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Agree a library of agreements would be great

 

The thing that is confusing me most is the recontruction of agreements,

 

For those of us that already have copies of application forms/ccas missing all the prescribed terms etc pre wakesman cases , are we pretty safe as we have copies of our true agreements and know the prescribed terms are missing,

 

If a creditor could also go on to then reconstuct prescribed terms in another document for those of us with copies of our ccas missing the prescribed terms , that would surely mean that almost every debtor could be faced with an enforcable agrement, but thats not wakesman or the oft implied ,hence their stance that creditors should inform debtors if the cca unenforcable

 

I was initially under the impression these reconstruction jobs were just a warning shot to the claims management companies to basically close the door on them and avoid swamping the courts with claims for unenforcability under failure to comply with section 78,and that nothing had really changed if its the creditor taking the debtor to court,and that we could still use case law at a higher level to these manchester hearings.

Edited by dizzyblonde1966
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TBH that's how I saw it. Take a look at Cartels website they are definitely putting a hugely positive spin on this judgment.

 

Edited by pt2537
CMC links removed- breach of site rules

Brooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooce's success's so far:

 

Capital One - 15% f & f saving £4,250

Barclaycard - 25% f & f saving £12,000

Blackhorse - reduced loan settlement saving £1,605

Cahoot - 15% f & f saving £2,740

MBNA - 20% f & f saving £26,800

Lloyds TSB 28% f & f saving £7,377

 

Total written off to date: £54,772!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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DizzyB

 

That's what I think too. It was to stop the cmc's creaming it and clogging up the courts trying to get debt written off via s77/s78.

 

I am pretty certain the original signed agreement is still needed to actually enforce the debt in court.

 

BTW the OFT guidlelines are now in this week's Scottish legal news online - probably in other legal pubs too.

 

BD

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Thanks haggis .Could you please do that anyway.

 

Sorry mate I think I was mistaken, just spend ages reading the Judgement and cant find anything on s77 requests when terms have been varied. :mad:

 

The judgement: http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/judgments_guidance/mcguffick-v-rbs.pdf

I have no legal qualifications whatsoever, so please check any input I have for accuracy. And please correct me if you disagree!

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My thinking is the creditors can now produce "reconstructions" if the original cant be found to satisfy a sec 78 request ,(obviously a creditor will now use this to his advantage, if he does have the original and its non compliant, hes probably going to say cant locate it and send a compliant reconstruction instead,

 

Thank god i got all my cca"s in 2008, most of them are application forms missing all the prescribed terms,

 

So am i right in thinking my agreements are iredeemingly unenforcable ?

is this what the oft and judge wakesman were hinting at ? or am i just clutching at straws,

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Wasn't Waksman working from the assumption that the terms hadn't been varied? Who has a card that hasn't been varied? Very few I imagine

Brooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooce's success's so far:

 

Capital One - 15% f & f saving £4,250

Barclaycard - 25% f & f saving £12,000

Blackhorse - reduced loan settlement saving £1,605

Cahoot - 15% f & f saving £2,740

MBNA - 20% f & f saving £26,800

Lloyds TSB 28% f & f saving £7,377

 

Total written off to date: £54,772!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Sorry mate I think I was mistaken, just spend ages reading the Judgement and cant find anything on s77 requests when terms have been varied. :mad:

 

The judgement: http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/judgments_guidance/mcguffick-v-rbs.pdf

 

Just realised that Its Carey vs HSBC that dealt with Variation. From the recent OFT guidance:

 

Where there has been a variation of the terms and conditions of the

agreement

2.27 Where an agreement has been varied in accordance with section 82(1)

of the Act, the OFT considers that, by virtue of Regulation 7 of the

Copies of Documents Regulations, the duty is to provide not only a copy

of the agreement as originally executed but also either

14 There are cases where no executed agreement is required by the Act, for example, certain

bank overdrafts.

15 Section 127(3) continues to apply to agreements made before 6 April 2007.

OFT1175con | 15

a copy of the latest variation given in accordance with section 82(1)

of the Act relating to each discrete term of the agreement which has

been varied, or

a clear statement of the terms of the agreement as varied in

accordance with section 82(1) of the Act.

2.28 Although some creditors have apparently considered it is sufficient to

provide a copy of the current terms and conditions (that is, 'a statement

of the terms of the agreement as varied'), that does not comply with the

requirements of Regulation 7. In Carey v HSBC Bank plc16 there was

detailed analysis of this issue and it was confirmed that 'include' meant

that the documents showing the variations were to be supplied in

addition to a copy of the original agreement.

I have no legal qualifications whatsoever, so please check any input I have for accuracy. And please correct me if you disagree!

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Wasn't Waksman working from the assumption that the terms hadn't been varied? Who has a card that hasn't been varied? Very few I imagine

 

Anyone who took out an agreement before the charges **** hit the fan id imagine - charges used to be up to £30, now theyre all set at £12 on credit cards

I have no legal qualifications whatsoever, so please check any input I have for accuracy. And please correct me if you disagree!

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I am pretty certain the original signed agreement is still needed to actually enforce the debt in court.

 

My understanding is that it is unusual for the original to be produced in court, or even be available, more likely a copy of the original signed document.

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My thinking is the creditors can now produce "reconstructions" if the original cant be found to satisfy a sec 78 request ,(obviously a creditor will now use this to his advantage, if he does have the original and its non compliant, hes probably going to say cant locate it and send a compliant reconstruction instead,

 

Thank god i got all my cca"s in 2008, most of them are application forms missing all the prescribed terms,

 

So am i right in thinking my agreements are iredeemingly unenforcable ?

is this what the oft and judge wakesman were hinting at ? or am i just clutching at straws,

 

I would imagine that if you wrote to them and said the copy you sent me in 2008 has no prescribed terms so its unenforceable, they may write back and say how about this one which we reconstructed today.

 

That is my understanding of the reason behind the Waksman judgement. It is not appropriate to declare it unenforceable in case an enforceable copy turns up later. The idea of S77/78 is not about the enforceabilty of the agreement, but to provide you with the information about the agreement which the Consumer Credit Act intended.

 

None of this makes the agreement enforceable or unenforceable, the argument regarding enforceabilty would be based on the creditor proving that the correct and accurate prescribed terms were contained within the agreement you signed.

 

The reconstruction you are supplied may contain terms which do not comply, or as you say you could receive a copy of an application form and the onus is then upon the creditor to prove that the terms they supply were actually contained within the original copy when you signed it.

 

For example if the application form states 'the terms overleaf' or 'terms attached' and they provide terms and say these were overleaf or attached it may be more difficult to challenge than 'I agree to its terms' in which case they would have to prove that the terms were indeed part of the agreement you signed.

 

I hope this makes sense, the point is there are lots of positive points for us to pursue, but it is not as cut and dried as it first appears when you start following the threads.

 

I forget which golfer said ' the more I practice the luckier I get'.

 

But you just need to keep reading, because luck plays its part in this game, as you will notice when reading the posts.

 

Pedross

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My understanding is that it is unusual for the original to be produced in court, or even be available, more likely a copy of the original signed document.

 

Pedross.

 

I really DO think that while any reconstructed job might now satisfy S77/78 (following Waksman and assuming NO variations since day 1 - unlikey!) the Creditors still need to show the entire ORIGINAL signed agreement in Court to enforce the agreement and collect the debt if the debtor refuses to pay. I am not sure about other T&C's just referred to in the 4 corners of the agreement and would like clarification on this bit too.

 

I think it boils down to the difference in providing INFORMATION ( S77/78 and SAR) and PROVING THE DEBT. I am willing to be corrected but this is my understanding of all I have read in CAG over recent months.

 

BD

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If you look at the recent Humbleman case which is very well documented, the judge was happy to accept any old scrap of paper as evidence that the original agreement was totally enforceable. This was despite compelling evidence to the contrary. There are cases where no agreement even exists and the judge has ruled in favour of the creditor on the 'balance of probabilities'.

 

I think the upshot is, from now on it is going to be very difficult to win any of these cases, particularly without professonal help.

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On the upside, there has been several cases on this site in the last week or so where the debtor won in court due to dodgy cca"s and non compliance to supply original documentation

 

Yes and many cases where the creditor has backed off at the last minutre.

 

J :D

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Pedross.

 

I really DO think that while any reconstructed job might now satisfy S77/78 (following Waksman and assuming NO variations since day 1 - unlikey!) the Creditors still need to show the entire ORIGINAL signed agreement in Court to enforce the agreement and collect the debt if the debtor refuses to pay. I am not sure about other T&C's just referred to in the 4 corners of the agreement and would like clarification on this bit too.

 

I think it boils down to the difference in providing INFORMATION ( S77/78 and SAR) and PROVING THE DEBT. I am willing to be corrected but this is my understanding of all I have read in CAG over recent months.

 

BD

 

Agreed ;)

I have no legal qualifications whatsoever, so please check any input I have for accuracy. And please correct me if you disagree!

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If Pedrross and RtoR are correct then it is essential that CAG builds up a library of old unenforceable agreements - so we can refute the "balance of probability" by numerous examples of contemporaneous unenforceable agremeents from tother CAGGERs with the same creditors - showing the incorrect PT's. In this case my understanding is the judge cannot overturn the provisions of CCA 1974. I have asked in other threads for feedback in setting up such a library of dodgy agreements and got a lot of support.

 

To avoid gate crashing this thread I have now set up a new thread called "lets build up a library of dodgy agreements in which I would welcome your support or otherwsie.

 

Regarding the above post again I seek further assurance or clarification of the points made by RtoR above.

 

BD

 

u y

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On the upside, there has been several cases on this site in the last week or so where the debtor won in court due to dodgy cca"s and non compliance to supply original documentation

it is also the complex legal arguments employed that won the cases

 

we must never forget that,

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On the upside, there has been several cases on this site in the last week or so where the debtor won in court due to dodgy cca"s and non compliance to supply original documentation

 

 

Indeed, just read a few this morning :):):)

 

Talk about confusng, Quantum physics or CCA 74, take your pick:|

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If Pedrross and RtoR are correct then it is essential that CAG builds up a library of old unenforceable agreements - so we can refute the "balance of probability" by numerous examples of contemporaneous unenforceable agremeents from tother CAGGERs with the same creditors - showing the incorrect PT's. In this case my understanding is the judge cannot overturn the provisions of CCA 1974. I have asked in other threads for feedback in setting up such a library of dodgy agreements and got a lot of support.

 

To avoid gate crashing this thread I have now set up a new thread called "lets build up a library of dodgy agreements in which I would welcome your support or otherwsie."

 

End Quote

 

Excellent BD !

People forget that the overriding purpose of the CCA was to be transparency (the written word) and this was twofold:-

1) To repeal the common law into consumer credit which allowed eg creditors to take advantage of verbal agreements under the Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware) rule and,

2)"Truth in lending" was to prevailfor a multitude of reasons but primarily

to combat "inequality of bargaining power" - and again this was attacked for a multitude of reasons, two of which, being to create both a "level playing field" and a "level lending field" - the first to combat eg the continuing problem of legal costs and the second being that transparency of terms would enable the consumer to take "full and informed decisions" as to best deals, etc.

 

That is why the CCA demands that a creditor seeking enforcement of what is a regulated indebtedness (as provided at inception under Section 8) MUST SHOW Compliance; that the consumer was aware of the true borrowing terms - and that is why the original signed CCA agreement must be presented to the Court to demonstrate "good faith" on the part of the creditor - ie that the creditor is not abusing due process. Especially, the requirement to show the true original signed agreement is in line with the social policy of transparency "truth in lending". AND that is why the CCA (1974) says "No Paperwork, No enforcement" - ie that where the loss may devastate an individual consumer's family, the loss was to be accomodated by the creditor where the creditor swore to abide by the compliance rules in any event as part of his licence criteria.

 

John Story smilie.gif

 

www.ruinedbynatwest.com

Edited by ruinedbynatwest
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To avoid gate crashing this thread I have now set up a new thread called "lets build up a library of dodgy agreements in which I would welcome your support or otherwsie.

BD

 

u y

 

As you know I'm in agreement on this one BD however...........

 

I would suggest this is run by the site team first before people start posting up applications that may be entered into other peoples defences.

 

S.

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