RBS defaulting me - no CCA, here we go!

[Dipply75]

The monkeys that read your letters just follow the processes which in most places are written down in process diagrams, particularly anything that is automated by a computer system.

 

I'm not an expert in the legalities, but if you don't keep to an agreement then you are in default of the agreement. You can argue that they haven't defaulted you properly by giving you time to comply, or that the remedy is not enforecable. All that will do is buy you time until they do it properly. Or you can go for the agreement itself - it's not and never was a legal agreement.

 

Did you get a SAR and signed copies of the agreement with the terms and conditions?

 

Do some fishing and then work out your strategy.

 

I'm afraid that in my experience, court action is the only thing they'll listen to, and even then it's knee jerk responses by outsourced law firms who don't give a crap either way (other than putting you through the mill because it's the nature of their 'honorable' profession).

 

You'll need to be sure of the legal points you're arguing on.

 

Sound advice, especially about the lawyers used!

 

They defaulted on my CCA request months ago then wrote to tell me they cannot find it and do not have enough details in the system to enable them to 're-create' it!

 

1st default was a mix of my a/c and some other Natwest customer's a/c! This default the dates, term I have breached in the agreement are wrong and they have started the default early also.

 

I think they use a toy bingo machine as a calculator in collections

[rickyd]

Hi Dipply75, from what I know of these things, its not the account or loan that is going to CMS, its your entire connection. If you look at this from their point of view, the branch staff don't have the time or resources to phone/write to people over missed payments. Its a completely natural thing to do. Where it gets tricky for you, is if this debt gets sold or written off as this will be noted on your credit file and RBS wouldn't offer you change for a phone after that. The really big issue for you, and I have no idea about the size of your disputed debt here, is that this could have serious knock-on repercussions in future.

 

All the big lenders now share data through the "beaureau" system and if the words "high value facilities at beaureau" or "adverse credit" appear on a lending application, you're screwed, and for a very long time. Your only option after that would be imapired credit lenders and that's for credit cards, loans and mortgages.

 

I'm glad you're enjoying your moment just now but they don't need to recover the funds to spoil your party here, in fact writing the debt off will do the most damage (to your future financial well being).

 

I speak from personal experience of watching a very well paid exec have his account closed, be refused a follow-on mortgage deal, lose his digital banking and switch facilities and have his Royalties Gold account downgraded to a "key" account because he argued that he had been overcharged interest on his credit card at the end of a 0% deal.

 

He did entirely the wrong thing by flatly refusing to pay anything until they had sent him an explanation of the charges and a written apology. After 6 months and several threatening letters his file went to CMS. They ultimately wrote off the £360 owed and cancelled another £1100 in charges and interest, but closed all his accounts and transferred the savings balance to a key account where he got no interest and had only a cashline card for access until he took the funds away.

 

Even worse, when his mortgage deal ended he went to SVR and couldn't get another fixed rate or tracker deal from the bank. He shopped around and ended up with only Platfom Funding offering him mortgage facilities at a truly horrendous interest rate and moved his bank accounts to HBOS.

 

I also have a suspicion that as his direct debits were cancelled he will probably have issues with paying monthly to BT and Scottish Power going forward.

 

He did go to court over the debt and was told they were entitled to charge him as they did, although the court was critical of the bank's methods. It held that they were within their rights to close his accounts and mark his credit file with an unsettled default. He was told that even though he had since offered to repay the disputed amount, RBS were not bound to accept it as the notified period had elapsed some time ago and that they had followed their stated terms and conditions.

 

The bank's request for costs was rejected however as the court ruled that they could have helped everyone by dealing with this better at the outset and instead of going to law.

 

The ironic thing is that the RBS SVR is now far lower than his "special deal" was.

 

What I would do is set out very clearly why you feel aggreived, state clearly that you are not unwilling to pay any debt legally attributable to you and that all you are seeking is clarification. I would certainly point out that as they cannot locate your Credit Agreement, it seems clear that they cannot argue for its enforcement.

 

(the missing file is probably at Iron Mountain in a box with either a missing or wrongly numbered label which, given the sheer volume of files any bank will hold, is probably gone forever. This is why they are allowed to recreate your loan agreement.)

 

What's obvious to me is that the size of the disputed amount is not going to cause RBS sleepless nights whether its repaid or not, its the principle thats valuable here. Just like bank charges, where operating costs have no relation to charges, but the sheer scale of money involved means that they have to take their argument as far as possible as the alternatives will mean a complete restructuring of the banking system with monthly charges for using a bank account.

 

What you must never lose sight of here is that RBS have to beat you in order to dissaude the thousands of other people who would see your victory as a "green light" for them to follow.

 

One other thing to contemplate - remember how RBS had to dispose of its stake in Santander because they were considering buying Abbey all those years ago? Competition law enforced this to prevent them becoming too dominant in the UK banking arena. Odd then, that last year the same law was pushed aside to allow Lloyds to "buy" HBOS even though they had no money available to do it. Subsequently, the same Lloyds went to the Government with their begging bowl for state handouts and got them, and the latest episode will see hundreds of lloyds workers lose their jobs as they try to reduce costs.

 

My point is simply this - the Goverment is so far up sh*t creek with the banks they are breaking their own laws to help them. They are all feeling the pinch so much that common sense and the usual rules no longer apply, that's why you need to be 101% clear what you're after here because they ain't taking prisoners.

Edited July 22, 2009 by rickyd
spelling error

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Dipply,

reading the above..have you opened a parachute account yet?

If not, I'd do it now, asap, before they trash your credit file even further and appropriate funds between accounts.

[Dipply75]

Hmmm, lots to think about there. As for apparently defualting on a loan account becaue they refusd to put the account in dispute after they failed to provide a CCA, how then does this legally entitle them to close ALL my accounts with them simply because they are with the same bank?

 

Not just because they have simply set their systems up that way....are they legally allowed to? By the same token then, if that kind of logic is allowed then if I have a bank account or loan with Natwest and I (apprently) default on my RBS loan...they can then close my Natwest banking and demand full payment of overdrafts, loans with them as they are in the same banking group?

 

Each account is opened and has a seperate contract with its own T&C's (hence the huge bank charges fight as there are contract terms being argued). So how does a percieved default on one contract allow them to terminate all of them?

 

Apart from that, they cannot supply a CCA, refuse to recognise this as a dispute, (as you state I am not obliged to offer payment at this time) start the default process as I have not paid, manage to get 2 default notices very wrong, then terminate the account even earlier than the date specified on the default notice (which was too early) and tell me this makes no difference.

 

And again, I have never refused to pay and intended to clear the full balance in a few months but they put me through hell so am now exercising my legal rights at this time.

 

Let me tell you, they are experts at quoting law and T&C's at you to explain they are allowed to bully, impose charges, take action or your money when it suits them.

 

=But when I quote the same laws & T&C's back at them that allow ME to do things now that it suits me? Apparently thats not allowed and they DON't like it - therefore they will try and bully me by summarily closing all my accounts and riding roughshod over the CCA.

 

Nope. 'fraid not. And I am not simply 'enjoying my moment', there is plenty I could be doing otherwise but I am sick of them being judge, jury and executioner and I am not supposed to challenge them?

 

They will trash my credit file because they have decided it doesn't matter what the CCA says, what their default notices say, they just can.......and I am supposed to bow to this bullying scare tactic and cut my losses?

 

Nope, 'fraid not

[Dipply75]

And yes, Elsa, I now have a parachute a/c open

 

Do not mean to rant rickyd, I now you are pointing out the facts as they see them and consequences...I am aware they will lose no sleep over my wee fight, but I will lose sleep if I do not stand up for myself cause it's easier

[rickyd]

I didn't see that as a rant, you're clearly p*ss*d off by them and have every right to be.

 

To cover your comment about Nat West, that's a very definite "NO" they can't, same group but entirely different company and although the T&Cs are growing every more close, they want to keep them seperate for a multitude of reasons.

 

The main point I was trying to make was that they can easily ruin your life, totally legally, and then drag their heels if they are told to correct their errors to such an extent that you'll wonder why you ever started down this path.

 

Its a bit like arguing with a traffic warden that the time on the meter is wrong after the tow truck has taken your car away. You may be correct but the point has changed, is all I'm saying.

 

Positive steps I would take:

 

1 open your parachute account(s)

 

2 Write to the boss of RBS (Stephen Hester) as this makes it an executive complaint and ensures that a grown up will read it.

 

3 be polite and to the point - tell them you're willing to settle the debt but first you need ......

 

4 Mention politely that you're very suprised at the actions of CMS and others as they seem to be breaking the law

 

5 add that you're going to take this to your MP and possibly the press if things can't be settled amicably.

 

Given Mr Hester's reputation as a "good guy" who's been drafted in to sort out Fred's mess, and the fact that Gov is knee deep in debt over the banks, the last thing anyone will want is more bad press, especially as RBS is heading for positive cashflow right now.

Edited July 22, 2009 by rickyd
typo

[Dipply75]

2 Write to the boss of RBS (Stephen Hester) as this makes it an executive complaint and ensures that a grown up will read it.

love it

[Debtcontrol]

Hi Dipply.

The best of luck to you - these clowns really do not surprise me anymore.

I will watch this one with interest.

I received my 'CCA' ha ha - a typed out agreement that wasn't dated or signed.

It also transpires that they transferred my CC debt to a refinance loan, without any consent or knowledge - and now Capquest are chasing me for it.

 

These people need to get serious - they cannot behave like this.

[diddydicky]

tell me you havent posted any of these letters Purleeease!!

[Debtcontrol]

ignore this - wrong thread

Edited July 22, 2009 by Debtcontrol
.

[diddydicky]

Ok stop messing around- they HAVE unlawfully rescinded the agreement if they have taken away your right to repay the loan in monthly instalments (by demanding payment it full) They have done this on the back of a defective DN so their claim for s87 benefits (the full amount of the account) is not legally based

 

 

you have been a lucky beggar in that you have managed on several occassions to assist them by pointing out the defective DN and whilst this might have come back and bit you on the bum it has actually given you great ammunitiion if this got to court.as amazingly they failed to take your advice and correct it

 

Now, assuming you have not been daft enough to send any letters since they terminated the account which talk about disputing parts of the debt (and thereby acknolwedging that you consider the agreement to still endure) then you need to write along these lines to them PDQ and recorded delivery

 

Re account XXXXXXXXXX Unlawful termination

 

I refer to your unlawful termination of the above agreement occasioned by your demand for me to pay the full outstanding balance of the account thereby unlawfully terminating the agreement.

 

You were not allowed under the CCA to demand any of the benefits of s87 without first having issued an effective default notice giving me an opportunity to remedy the alleged breach and pay any arrears claimed

 

Furthermore and notwithstanding the foregoing you were in any event prevented from enforcing the agreement by virtue of being in default of your obligations under s78 of the act

 

Even if an agreement existed, which you have stated that you have been unable to locate due to mis- filing, there was no lawful basis upon which the agreement could be terminated therefore I consider your termination of the agreement as being a repudiatory breach of contract and I formally accept the repudiation and, for the avoidance of doubt, confirm that as I have elected to accept the rescission of the contract I am therefore discharged from any ongoing liability under the former agreement. Your breach of contract gives rise to a claim for damages and Ilook forward to receiving your proposals

 

Yours faithfyully

 

 

XXX

 

IMO

[diddydicky]

Hi Dipply.

The best of luck to you - these clowns really do not surprise me anymore.

I will watch this one with interest.

I received my 'CCA' ha ha - a typed out agreement that wasn't dated or signed.

It also transpires that they transferred my CC debt to a refinance loan, without any consent or knowledge - and now Capquest are chasing me for it.

 

These people need to get serious - they cannot behave like this.

 

a typed out agreement with no signatures can be a true copy of an original credit agreement if it faithfully represents the wording of the original agreement (they are permitted to omit the signature boxes, signatures and dates) and true copy does not mean a photocopy, they ARe allowed to re create it

[Dipply75]

tell me you havent posted any of these letters Purleeease!!

 

No! No I haven't lol! Just drafts

 

I think I understand why you say that...is my entire letter now just arguing things that no longer really matter....and in doing so could signify my acceptance there is still an agreement to argue/complain about?

 

Even if this all goes pear shaped the balance is now only £375 () so am prepared to risk being stuck with it really!

 

Thankyou for that letter, will send recorded in the am...shame, was quite proud of my letter/novel

 

Just to give you a laugh, when I sent the original back signed to set it up they lost it. They sent a 2nd, and lost that also.....then a third before they set the loan up, and they cannot find any

[diddydicky]

No! No I haven't lol! Just drafts

 

I think I understand why you say that...is my entire letter now just arguing things that no longer really matter....and in doing so could signify my acceptance there is still an agreement to argue/complain about?

 

Even if this all goes pear shaped the balance is now only £375 () so am prepared to risk being stuck with it really!

 

Thankyou for that letter, will send recorded in the am...shame, was quite proud of my letter/novel

 

Just to give you a laugh, when I signed the original back signed to set it up they lost it. They sent a 2nd, and lost that also.....then a third before they set the loan up, and they cannot find any

 

yes, so shred em all

 

its easy to get lost in the emotion of it all- can you confirm that you have not paid them any money on this account since they terminated?

 

the only thing you are liable for on their unlawful termination are the arrears that were outstanding at the time they terminated- against which of course is your counterclaim for damages

[Dipply75]

I have not paid them a penny since 2 months befor that letter, so thats fine.

 

Can I just double check with you...the letter they sent (too early) stated I had failed to comply with the DN blah blah. We now demand that you pay to us not latre than close of business on 21st July 2009 the principal outstanding on the account.

 

It THEN says if I am unable to make full repayment by the specified date, there are a number of actions available: agree a mutually acceptable repayment plan or write to them with my proposals, including my first payment wiht my letter.

 

Is this standard carp trying to get to you agree payments urgently and as the 21st has now passed, is that time up, account terminated?

 

Can they claim that in their system the a/c wasn't ACTUALLY terminated, the letter just said that...they didn't go ahead and do it. could they use that as a defence?

[Dipply75]

sorry, just answered my own question...if I accept the termination it doesn't matter does it!

[diddydicky]

I have not paid them a penny since 2 months befor that letter, so thats fine.

 

Can I just double check with you...the letter they sent (too early) stated I had failed to comply with the DN blah blah. We now demand that you pay to us not latre than close of business on 21st July 2009 the principal outstanding on the account.

 

It THEN says if I am unable to make full repayment by the specified date, there are a number of actions available: agree a mutually acceptable repayment plan or write to them with my proposals, including my first payment wiht my letter.

 

Is this standard carp trying to get to you agree payments urgently and as the 21st has now passed, is that time up, account terminated?

 

Can they claim that in their system the a/c wasn't ACTUALLY terminated, the letter just said that...they didn't go ahead and do it. could they use that as a defence?

 

if they (or their muppets) have demanded the full amount then they have repudiated the agreement because they were not allowed to do that unless the DN was effective, so therefore the letter claiming the balance of the account represents a repudiation of the agreement by them

 

clearly the main benefit to you of the agreement is to allow you to borrow money and repay it over a period of time

 

if they take away this benefit then they have acted unlawfully

 

the law tolerates such an unlawful act and then allows the aggrieved (you) to either accept the unlawful act or continue with the agreement

 

now i am assuming that you are not a masochist and get off being smacked on the belly with a wet kipper, so naturally you will seize the ,moment and say thanks chaps dont mind if i do

 

just make sure you have that written demand for full payment which was dated after the date of the DN

[diddydicky]

I have not paid them a penny since 2 months befor that letter, so thats fine.

 

Can I just double check with you...the letter they sent (too early) stated I had failed to comply with the DN blah blah. We now demand that you pay to us not latre than close of business on 21st July 2009 the principal outstanding on the account.

 

It THEN says if I am unable to make full repayment by the specified date, there are a number of actions available: agree a mutually acceptable repayment plan or write to them with my proposals, including my first payment wiht my letter.

 

Is this standard carp trying to get to you agree payments urgently and as the 21st has now passed, is that time up, account terminated?

 

Can they claim that in their system the a/c wasn't ACTUALLY terminated, the letter just said that...they didn't go ahead and do it. could they use that as a defence?

 

they can claim what they like= they are up the creek without a paddle

[Dipply75]

now i am assuming that you are not a masochist and get off being smacked on the belly with a wet kipper, so naturally you will seize the ,moment and say thanks chaps dont mind if i do

 

just make sure you have that written demand for full payment which was dated after the date of the DN

 

pmsl Can't say I've tried the kippering lol, not the sort of thing I get offered at the weekend, but doesn't sound sexy I'll pass!

 

Their DN demanded payment of arrears by 15th July. Their letter dated 13th July demanded full payment by 21st July.

 

Done deal :grin:

 

Many many thanks for that, to everyone, will update what response I get

[Dipply75]

Hi Dipply.

The best of luck to you - these clowns really do not surprise me anymore.

I will watch this one with interest.

I received my 'CCA' ha ha - a typed out agreement that wasn't dated or signed.

It also transpires that they transferred my CC debt to a refinance loan, without any consent or knowledge - and now Capquest are chasing me for it.

 

These people need to get serious - they cannot behave like this.

 

If you are saying RBS did this without your knowlege there is a thread you really should read, especially if it has then been passed to Capquest and you are actuaully beig chased

 

I mean, really read this thread!

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/11427-walton-rbos-86.html

[Dipply75]

Elsa, thanks for the support, really appreciate it. Have tickled your green spot

 

If I can ever........

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Dipply

Just catching up over my morning coffee..thanks for the tickle

Things are moving fast in the DN debate!

I personally think that once you firmly challenge them on this they'll drop you like a hot brick..the amount you owe is peanuts to them. They may not write it off /clear your Credit Record (unless you continue the fight) but what you might get is a static account marked as "u" on the credit file, no interest, no pestering, just a meek..well, morally you should pay but we can't enforce it...

Up to you then whether you sit it out for 6 (maybe 3 soon) years or go full steam for a writeoff/credit repair or even damages for the breach of contract.

Right..more coffee!!

Elsa x

[GerryPerry]

Elsa's right about the termination. She also makes a very good point about getting other accounst set up asap. I commend you to follow that advice.

 

You need to do a formal SAR and on that data decide how go legal.

 

They have had their chance and are just messing you about now.

 

It takes an age for legal remedies, and for that reason best to start sooner.

 

Every letter you now right to them should be on the basis of a judge reading it. So, short, pointy, and tell them what you want them to do to remedy the pain they have caused by their unlawful actions. Best to get the SAR first.

 

Good luck.

[Debtcontrol]

If you are saying RBS did this without your knowlege there is a thread you really should read, especially if it has then been passed to Capquest and you are actuaully beig chased

 

I mean, really read this thread!

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/11427-walton-rbos-86.html

 

a typed out agreement with no signatures can be a true copy of an original credit agreement if it faithfully represents the wording of the original agreement (they are permitted to omit the signature boxes, signatures and dates) and true copy does not mean a photocopy, they ARe allowed to re create it

 

Hello.

Thanks - I have a thread open, its here, along with the response I got -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/205940-debtcontrol-rbs-cc-capquest.html

 

Thanks to both for replying - I will read the thread provided with great interest.

[diddydicky]

Elsa, thanks for the support, really appreciate it. Have tickled your green spot

 

If I can ever........

 

ahhhhhhhh you learn something everyday....... always wondered what the "G" stood for!!