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Dipply75

RBS defaulting me - no CCA, here we go!

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Hi all

 

After having to give up my job I asked RBS for help on my loan payments, short term. The carry on I was hit with was ridiculous, quoting T&C's and their debt collection threats (I hadn't even missed a payment yet!) so I thought, if they want to play nasty...........

 

I CCA'd them on 2nd April - they finally replied that they 'misfiled' it and they do not have enough details keyed into their system to re-create it (eh? what DO they have then?)

 

So CCA non compliance letter sent and the dance with RBS starts. First they send me a letter telling me they still want paid or they will default me. Bottom of the letter then states "we have defaulted your accounts today" then asks for repayment of an account I do not have (NAtwest Step a/c). Hmmmm.

 

Seperate letter states I have 28 days to repay arrears of I will be defaulted. Default notice included gives me 14 days (no time allowed for service btw) and is a mixture of my a/c details and this other 'step' account. hmmmm - so I start digging.

 

Am told its a mistake, to shred it, then please take the original into the branch for them investigate (yeah, watch me), then when I simply point out the notice is invalid anyhoo as the details are all wrong - the advisor gives me a bollocking! I kid you not - shouted at me "if you want to get technical about things Miss Dipply, I am cancelling your cards and accounts now". WOW!

 

Aggressive idiot then puts a note that the DN is valid. Next monkey I get admits the details are wrong but they don't care, computer says 'valid', its valid - they will still default me. (recorded btw, thanks joncris :D)

 

Next idiot tells me doesn't matter no CCA, there is no dispute, they will still default me (recorded)

 

So! On the advice of cagger Sparkie, am SAR'ing RBS and Natwest n lets see what happens.

 

Mainly hoping I can record all and post the whole song and dance that RBS will try and put me through for no CCA - and prepare/help others starting it with them. This will be my 3rd round with RBS - but think this will be the longest :mad:

 

Any advice, comment much appreciated!


Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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NatWest are shocking. They will say that black is white as far as CCAs are concerned.

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Hi miss dipply...........i've had the run around from RBS too...........thought this might help................................it is in my post "Consumer Credit Act.............clarity required?".........

It is clear that in the absence of a signed copy of the executed credit agreement any debt is unenforceable. How can any creditor pass a debt to any DCA/agent until they have supplied that................surel y that action is a clear breach of the CCA......since the act states the following :

 

 

 

2 UNFAIR BUSINESS PRACTICES

 

Communication

2.1 It is unfair to communicate, in whatever form, with consumers in an unclear, inaccurate or misleading manner.

 

2.2 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

b. leaving out or presenting information in such a way that it creates a false or misleading impression or exploits debtors' lack of knowledge

 

False representation of authority and/or legal position

 

2.3 Those contacting debtors must not be deceitful by misrepresenting their authority and/or the correct legal position.

 

2.4 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

b. falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when it legally cannot

Deceptive and/or unfair methods

Psychological harassment

2.5 Putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive.

d. not ensuring that an adequate history of the debt is passed on as appropriate resulting in repetitive and/or frequent contact by different parties

 

................surely it is not the duty or responsability of any debtor to point out the law to a creditor. They have a licence and therefore a clear responsability to uphold the CCA. With this in mind any debtor who receives such comunications is comletley with in their right not to respond and to complain about it. That complaint is evidence of a dispute, it is not enough for the DCA/agent to say that they were unaware of this breach, they should have ensured they had the right to pursue the debt.

 

....what i would add is that you really don't need to reply to any DCA's etc but you should complain about the fact that they have breached the Act. They have 8 weeks to respond, after that you can pass that mtter on to the FOS

 

krj8;)

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At the greatest risk of receiving a verbal mauling here I think its only fair to remind everyone that before any financial institution can offer help in restructuring loan agreements, the existing facility needs to go into default. The logic is simple but put emotion into the equation and it all seems a bit crazy.

 

So in defaulting your loan they are actually moving from one part of their processes to another, where they could actually help you. Think of it as the fire brigade not coming out until the fire has actually started if you will. Crazy, but logical.

 

The operators attitude stinks though and there is no excuse for it. On those grounds alone you should pursue them to the ends of the earth

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I would disagree with that, they can restructure without defaulting you. HBOS did with me for 5yrs before suddenly issuing a default notice citing not paying mimimum payments even though I was paying an agreed amount.

 

RBS staff forget that WE own the company and hopefully clots who treat us with such disdain will join the swelling ranks of the unemployed.

 

RBS/Mint tell me that no cca does not prevent them taking me to court or reporting to the CRA`s;) Cant wait for the court date.


Advice & opinions given by spartathisis are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.:)

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Whoa hold on there tiger!

 

I keep hearing this "we own them" rant, do you think this gives us, the consumer, any special privileges?

 

The real facts are that the banks still have all their power, the governments shareholding is held in an impotent special purpose vehicle with the long-term aim of getting more money out than they put into the deal. They didn't have any choice but to keep these banks afloat as they are so intimately spliced into the country's commerce that not to do so would have meant no more direct debits; no switch payments; no cash machines, Internet shopping would all but cease. Payroll staff would buckle under the pressure as everyone demanded their wages in cash etc. As an example consider the fact that 1 in every 2 card transactions goes through an RBS system at some point no matter which bank is involved.

 

And this is before you consider the spectre of 70 to 90,000 bank staff on the dole costing a huge amount in benefits and contributing little or nothing to the economy through tax and national insurance.

 

The government had absolutely no choice in this which is why they have little or no influence now. Fred Goodwin's pension is a case in point - they even signed it off for him as he walked off the pitch.

 

We may not like it but they still have as much power as they ever did and if the Government is to get our money back, the banks have to keep on making profit and the more charges they refund the longer it will take.

 

Rant over!

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Well I do not think it gives us special privileges, but I do think we are now even more entitled to our basic rights and we should not still be having to fight tooth and nail for them. Not now the Cag is here!

 

I believe there are many ways they could help without defaulting me, marking my credit file for 6 years etc, when all I asked for was to be a bit late with 2 months payments - as I have a job lined up (god willing!)

 

I agree there are procedures to be followed, that is my problem - they aint! They are making it up as they go along and the fate of your accounts and your credit file is entirely up to the 'mood' and level of training of the advisor you get.

 

And I will also point out to everyone I have never once refused to pay. I will be paying this again once I actually can, but as far as I am concerned no CCA just now - no agreed payments.

 

They are all big and mighty when they are quoting rules and laws at you to charge you, make you pay, make demands. Well shoes on the other foot, I am quoting the rules and laws - lets see if they behave :rolleyes:

 

Thanks for the reply btw rickyd, the debates throw up lots of good info usually.

 

And they hit me with the same crap Spartathisis, before they realised I was recording ;)


Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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At the greatest risk of receiving a verbal mauling here I think its only fair to remind everyone that before any financial institution can offer help in restructuring loan agreements, the existing facility needs to go into default. The logic is simple but put emotion into the equation and it all seems a bit crazy.

 

So in defaulting your loan they are actually moving from one part of their processes to another, where they could actually help you. Think of it as the fire brigade not coming out until the fire has actually started if you will. Crazy, but logical.

 

The operators attitude stinks though and there is no excuse for it. On those grounds alone you should pursue them to the ends of the earth

 

LOL............so what you're saying is..........the next time I get a letter from a DCA threatening to take me to court.........I should try to remember that they are trying to help me by restructuring my............WHAT?.............how can they restructure something that they don't have?????????:p

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At the greatest risk of receiving a verbal mauling here I think its only fair to remind everyone that before any financial institution can offer help in restructuring loan agreements, the existing facility needs to go into default.

Why on earth do you think it needs to go into default before it can be restructured? I've restructured my debts several times without a default so I know you're talking rubbish, but I'd be interested to know where your belief comes from.

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Hi all

 

Well, after phoning thr FOS to tell them they are trying to default me for aomeone elses account (dodgy DN), Customer Relations phoned me, all apologies, refunded 2 charges applied wrongly and paid my phone call costs and some compensation.

 

Apologised no end and blamed it on human error - glossed over the vindictive staff I have recorded threatening me, but I will bring that up again for my overall complaint about them. She then went into a big discussion about me starting to pay this loan again, time is a factor as a new default notice was issued, my accounts might go to their Credit Management Services (she implied this would be bad for me :confused:).

 

Next day I receive a letter about my claim for charges under the OFT test case and my claim for Hardship (eh?)..wanting me to fill in a full I&E and they would have to reduce my a/c, cancel my maestro card etc. Apparently as I am not paing my loan I am claiming hardship lol.

 

Aha...with the behaviour of their staff (they are making it virtually impossible to discuss normal daily banking with them) and now trying to push me a/c down, canx my switch...they are trying to make me go away. (silly silly niaive RBS :p)

 

Everytime I ask why the bank considers the non compliance with my CCA requets to make no difference to anything they ignore me. Ask why they are just carrying on as normal, defaulting etc, does the lack of agreement make any difference to them? Ignored me.

 

Basically I am gathering proof they are trying to make it difficult to continue my account with them for exercising a legal right. The lack of CCA make NO difference to them at all except that they cannot take court action. But is a DN not a pre-cursor to court action?

 

So I was thinking of paying them £1 per month (for now ;)), as they keep saying they can prove I have had the funds, yes, but I keep saying there is no legal agreement stating payment terms, amounts, agreeing to be defaulted for non payment etc.

 

And I think the new DN is wrong also lol


Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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I didn't think they would be this stupid but I am an optimist lol.

 

Letter received this morning, dated 13th July, stating that I have failed to comply with the recent default notice and they are now demanding the full loan by 21st July or my a/c's will close and go to debt collectors etc, default me.

 

I call and the recorded conversation goes:

 

Me: You have sent this letter but you are still working on the dates of the original wrong default

 

RBS: Nope, its probably just a typo, you have until the 23rd July, please lets arrange a payment to this.

 

Me: Not making payments as you could not supply credit agreement, are you still going to default me on these dates?

 

RBS: I know we cannot supply the agreement, that is a seperate matter (:confused:), if you want to look into that best of luck to you, but as far as this dept is concerned, you need to arrange a payment or we will continue the default procedure.

 

Me: So RBS being unable to provide the CCA make absolutely no difference to this situation?

 

RBS: I am not saying that, I am just saying its a shame to be defaulted and have your credit file affected for 6 years for this. Thats not a threat, just pointing out the facts. If you are not making an arrangment today I am ending this call.

 

Me: Ok, bye :D

 

So, I know have me recorded telling them AGAIN that their paperwork is wrong and they are doing things too early. If they are determined to continue and default me even though they've done it all wrongly, fine. I have warned them.;)

 

And the lack of CCA is a seperate issue? Hmmm, that phone call going to the OFT, FOS etc. So as far as RBS are concerned, the Consumer Credit Act doesn't apply to them.

 

Letter going off today.

 

If I post up the latest default notice, can someone look it over please, I think the dates are wrong again, should there not be 2 days allowed for service?

 

Thanks all :)


Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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Hi all quick update.

 

OK the 2nd default notice was sent on 30th June and stated I had to pay by 15th July (no time for service). They then sent me a letter dated 13th July stating I had already failed to comply with the default notice and demanded the full loan amount.

 

I then get an automated message at 8:01am - phone back and the advisor has no idea why then tell me my accounts are now in the process of being sent to recoveries, there is nothing I can do about that now. I tell him they are doing it too early and he said it makes no difference, the dates don't REALLY matter. all recorded btw

 

They will now place a default on my file, close my bank accounts and cancel my card. I will point out that this loan has never shown on my credit file so if they only put it on now n default it is clear evidence they are simply using that as a punishment.

 

I would be most grateful for any advice/comments on the letter I have done up :)


Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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Apologies for the length

 

Formal Complaint

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

 

Account Number:

 

Further to your letter dated 13th July 2009, I am unhappy that I have to draw you attention to your company's lack of compliance with my legal request.

 

On 6th April I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for this account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. Your letter clearly stated that you are unable to provide this documentation and have therefore failed to comply with my request, and as such the account became unenforceable at law on 22 April 2009.

 

Failure to comply with this request within 12 working days renders the debt UNENFORCEABLE in law. Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a compliant credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* may not pass the account to a third party.

* may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* may not issue a default notice related to the account – this includes your current notification of intention to file a default.

Complaint Details

I will outline the main points applicable in this case for the purposes of my complaint:

 

 

 

Bank Accounts under Collections Control

I am quite sure a financial organisation as large and reputable as yourselves is aware of the terms of the Consumer Credit Act and the obligations and protections contained in this Act. I am therefore confused as to why all my bank accounts are still with the Collections Dept and I am being chased for payment. I am now being forced to deal with an extremely rude, unknowlegeable and incompetent Collections Dept for simply for exercising my legal rights. The loan agreement is in dispute and should not be showing as outstanding arrears or affecting my normal daily banking.

 

I will not accept “that is how our system works” as your systems should not be set up to contravene my rights under the Consumer Credit Act. Should these accounts not return to branch control I will take this as an attempt to punish me or treat me less favourably simply for choosing to exercise my legal right at this time.

 

I also have a serious complaint regarding my treatment as a whole by your Collections Dept which I will be lodging a complaint and supplying full recordings of the phone call this relates to, to be investigated fully.

 

A - Account status – under dispute or not

I note that every time I ask if the bank considers this a dispute you refuse to answer, but your actions are a clear NO. Your staff have advised that your breach of my request has no bearing on the status of my account or the situation. Your advice and behaviour implies the relevant section of the Consumer Credit Act or the OFT guidance on the issue does not apply to RBS, so I ask for final clarification on the banks position on this question – Is my account in dispute or not.

 

B - Default Process

There is also the fact that you are still following the default process in these circumstances. A default is placed if I have defaulted on an agreement – since you are unable to supply an agreement you cannot claim I have defaulted on any specific contractual term. Please confirm if you think it is acceptable to place a default on an account under dispute.

 

C - Invalid Default Notices

For your information, I consider the default notices you have served and the dates you are working on to be wrong, so invalidating the notices, therefore should you terminate the agreement as you plan I believe you would be unlawfully rescinding the contract. Please note I have recordings of me informing the bank of this, and as your staff refused to listen and seemed less than interested, I have now also informed you in writing:

 

1 – As you posted the notice on 30th July and demand arrears by 15th July, you have not allowed time for service therefore not allowing me the 14 days required. I put you to strict proof your noticed provided the 14 days required and whether 1st or 2nd class post was used for service.

2 – You then sent a notice dated 13th July (2 days early) stating I had already failed to comply with the requirements of the default notice and demanding full payment of the principal amount. I take this as your notice that you are already terminating the account.

2 - You state the provision I have breached was agreed weekly payments without specifying an amount, yet you will note from my account £31.25 was paid monthly. 3 - You are unable to provide the agreement proving I agreed to any such term.

 

I am extremely unhappy at having to continually point out to RBS the flaws in its own paperwork, this is not my responsibility. Should you continue your actions after receiving my challenge on the validity of these notices I reserve the right to report this to the regulatory authorities and commence court action.

 

D - Transfer of bank accounts to CMS

You have also advised that should I not ’remedy’ the default you will transfer my account to Credit Management Services and close access to my normal bank accounts which will then accept credits only. As you have not clearly stated this as an action you intend to take on the default notice – as required in Schedule 2, Section 6 of the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983, I do not believe you are entitled to take this action. Again, I will not accept “that is how our system works” as you are taking this specific action on my bank accounts upon a perceived default on my loan account and Schedule 2, Section 6 of this Act requires that your default notice details a clear unambiguous statement of your intended actions upon default.

 

E - Data Protection Act

Further to this you cannot provide proof of my signed permission to share this data with third parties, including credit reference agencies. I will point out that this loan account has never shown on my credit file, and if RBS decide now, only in the event of this perceived ‘default’ to record this account, it would be clear you are using the default procedure purely as a punishment for exercising a legal right. For avoidance of doubt I have enclosed a notice pursuant to Section 10 of the Data Protection Act with regards to the processing of this loan account data.

 

 

 

What I require

 

My accounts – (current account and key account) returned to branch control as I should not be forced to deal with the Collections Dept simply for exercising my legal rights. The loan agreement is in dispute and should not be affecting my normal daily banking and you have not specified this as an intended action in your default notices.

 

Clarification finally on the question you refuse to answer: Does you consider your breach of my request for a true signed agreement for this account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8 to constitute a legal dispute on this account? Your staff advise me the account is not in dispute and I require you to clarify if my account is in dispute or not within RBS.

 

I am aware that I am not obliged to offer any payment and there are no contractual terms or amounts you can demand, but I have stated numerous times that I have never refused to pay. In the meantime I am offering a token £1 per month to the balance until my personal circumstances improve, at which time I will review this figure.

 

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

 

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is still a formal complaint. I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter and await your rapid response.

 

 

 

Yours faithfully


Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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Hi Dipply,

That's a stunning letter :)

The only bit I can see that could perhaps be modified to your benefit is the part about paying £1 per month.

Personal choice here (I wouldn't pay them anything in same circumstances with no cca) but in view of their faulty Default/cancellation of the account, even if they did have a valid CCA, arguably all they could legally demand is the arrears accrued prior to their breach of contract. Hence you could, I believe, specify that the £1 was expressly towards the arrears up to this point. This signifies your acceptance of the breach. To do otherwise and offer £1 per month off the total balance may despite your disclaimer imply that you consider the contract to be still binding?

Just my own thoughts :)

Kind regards,

Elsa x


PLEASE NOTE... I AM MOST SORRY BUT I HAVE VERY LIMITED AVAILABILITY AT THE MOMENT DUE TO EXTREME PRESSURE OF WORK - IF YOU REQUIRE URGENT HELP ON YOUR THREAD AND ARE GETTING NO RESPONSE PLEASE HIT THE TRIANGLE FOR SITE TEAM ASSISTANCE. ELSA XXX

 

Please check out my BLOG for the quick guide to debt threats - it has all the info & letter template links you need to get started on your journey of TAKING CONTROL. :roll:

 

All opinions are my own based on research. I am not legally qualified, if in doubt please consult a legal expert.

Hope this has helped or made you smile. Keep your chin up, you're among friends now! Elsa xxx

Please click the *star* of any CAG member who has helped you .

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Hi Dipply,

That's a stunning letter :)

The only bit I can see that could perhaps be modified to your benefit is the part about paying £1 per month.

Personal choice here (I wouldn't pay them anything in same circumstances with no cca) but in view of their faulty Default/cancellation of the account, even if they did have a valid CCA, arguably all they could legally demand is the arrears accrued prior to their breach of contract. Hence you could, I believe, specify that the £1 was expressly towards the arrears up to this point. This signifies your acceptance of the breach. To do otherwise and offer £1 per month off the total balance may despite your disclaimer imply that you consider the contract to be still binding?

Just my own thoughts :)

Kind regards,

Elsa x

 

 

Hi Dipply..........I agree with Elsa here, if you do pay anything towards this you are going to have a heck of a job showing that you are in dispute.

 

However that said it might be prudent to offer to enter into a repayment agreement in the event that RBS comply with your requests.........that way no one can effectively suggest that you are not willing to pay...I don't think you need to specify and repayment amount at this point.

 

Anyhoo that's what I've done and so far so good.:cool:krj8

PS...the bank don't need to verify that the account is in dispute as it is a simple fact that it is.

Edited by karenruthj8
adding more

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Hi Dipply,

That's a stunning letter :)

The only bit I can see that could perhaps be modified to your benefit is the part about paying £1 per month.

Personal choice here (I wouldn't pay them anything in same circumstances with no cca) but in view of their faulty Default/cancellation of the account, even if they did have a valid CCA, arguably all they could legally demand is the arrears accrued prior to their breach of contract. Hence you could, I believe, specify that the £1 was expressly towards the arrears up to this point. This signifies your acceptance of the breach. To do otherwise and offer £1 per month off the total balance may despite your disclaimer imply that you consider the contract to be still binding?

Just my own thoughts :)

Kind regards,

Elsa x

 

Thank you so much Elsa & Karenruthj8 - lifesaver point!

 

This is kind of uncharted territory for me so it's these little points I can easily hang myself with :rolleyes:

 

I have removed that now (phew!) Can I ask if I am right on the rescinding the contract part?

 

I am hoping this case will highlight the procedure RBS will force you through just for lack of CCA and what can be done about it. If court is necessary then so be it :D


Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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Hi :)

Just read it again..it depends how you want to proceed with this but if it was me, I'd leave out the entire para on Invalid Default Notices for now and save it as an ace up your sleeve in the event that they do threaten court action..or at the very least unless they have undeniably terminated. They've got plenty of other points to tax their brains with for now :)

This would mean of course that you couldn't phrase your £1 offer to take this into account. However I think Karenruths idea is a good one about not offering it yet but keeping the way open.

Maybe finish on the lines of ...

"Upon satisfactory resolution of the issues raised in my dispute I will be happy to come to an amicable repayment arrangement with regard to any amounts proven to be legally owed."

 

You have to be so careful not to trip yourself up with these people!

Elsa x


PLEASE NOTE... I AM MOST SORRY BUT I HAVE VERY LIMITED AVAILABILITY AT THE MOMENT DUE TO EXTREME PRESSURE OF WORK - IF YOU REQUIRE URGENT HELP ON YOUR THREAD AND ARE GETTING NO RESPONSE PLEASE HIT THE TRIANGLE FOR SITE TEAM ASSISTANCE. ELSA XXX

 

Please check out my BLOG for the quick guide to debt threats - it has all the info & letter template links you need to get started on your journey of TAKING CONTROL. :roll:

 

All opinions are my own based on research. I am not legally qualified, if in doubt please consult a legal expert.

Hope this has helped or made you smile. Keep your chin up, you're among friends now! Elsa xxx

Please click the *star* of any CAG member who has helped you .

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Am i right in thinking that you had a loan with them, you were repaying, you lost your job, you wanted to reschedule payments, they got all arsey and defaulted you?

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Hi Elsa

 

I think you are right, they should KNOW why their defaults are invalid without me spelling it out (yet) and it makes more sense to approach it this way....mentioning an offer after the dispute - carrot & stick.

 

I offer a carrot once they have lowered the stick. Thanks muchly again :)

 

GerryPerry - basically I was on maternity leave and still kept the payments up but when I had to give up my job (going back in a few moths yippee!) I only asked to be a bit late with 2 payments, thats it. And yes, they then got all arsey, put me through a right carry on. Even just deducted the 2 payments from my a/c out the blue one day after agreeing the repayment! (got that back eventually). Daft thing id, when I got back to work I was just gonna clear the lot in one go!

 

So yes, game on :mad:


Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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Hi :)

Just read it again..it depends how you want to proceed with this but if it was me, I'd leave out the entire para on Invalid Default Notices for now and save it as an ace up your sleeve in the event that they do threaten court action..or at the very least unless they have undeniably terminated. They've got plenty of other points to tax their brains with for now :)

This would mean of course that you couldn't phrase your £1 offer to take this into account. However I think Karenruths idea is a good one about not offering it yet but keeping the way open.

Maybe finish on the lines of ...

"Upon satisfactory resolution of the issues raised in my dispute I will be happy to come to an amicable repayment arrangement with regard to any amounts proven to be legally owed."

 

You have to be so careful not to trip yourself up with these people!

Elsa x

 

Right thinking about this, do I remove the entire invalid default section or just leave a simple line it stating that I think they are invalid - challenging them?

 

I want to be able to prove that I did challenge them and they continued regardless, does this show too much of my hand or put another nail in the ole coffin?


Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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Hmm..only problem with that, if they haven't undeniably terminated, is that it gives them the opportunity to re issue a correct default notice.

It's your call, if you're confident that they have terminated, go ahead and leave it in, if not, I'd personally keep that card close to my chest. You can always remind them later that you challenged this on the phone.

Might be an idea for you to PM either surfaceagentx20 or banker_rhymes_with on this..they are the DN maestros :)


PLEASE NOTE... I AM MOST SORRY BUT I HAVE VERY LIMITED AVAILABILITY AT THE MOMENT DUE TO EXTREME PRESSURE OF WORK - IF YOU REQUIRE URGENT HELP ON YOUR THREAD AND ARE GETTING NO RESPONSE PLEASE HIT THE TRIANGLE FOR SITE TEAM ASSISTANCE. ELSA XXX

 

Please check out my BLOG for the quick guide to debt threats - it has all the info & letter template links you need to get started on your journey of TAKING CONTROL. :roll:

 

All opinions are my own based on research. I am not legally qualified, if in doubt please consult a legal expert.

Hope this has helped or made you smile. Keep your chin up, you're among friends now! Elsa xxx

Please click the *star* of any CAG member who has helped you .

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;) magic, will do, thanks. Wanna make this watertight!

Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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The monkeys that read your letters just follow the processes which in most places are written down in process diagrams, particularly anything that is automated by a computer system.

 

I'm not an expert in the legalities, but if you don't keep to an agreement then you are in default of the agreement. You can argue that they haven't defaulted you properly by giving you time to comply, or that the remedy is not enforecable. All that will do is buy you time until they do it properly. Or you can go for the agreement itself - it's not and never was a legal agreement.

 

Did you get a SAR and signed copies of the agreement with the terms and conditions?

 

Do some fishing and then work out your strategy.

 

I'm afraid that in my experience, court action is the only thing they'll listen to, and even then it's knee jerk responses by outsourced law firms who don't give a crap either way (other than putting you through the mill because it's the nature of their 'honorable' profession).

 

You'll need to be sure of the legal points you're arguing on.

Edited by GerryPerry
typo

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Once they've officially terminated the agreement they can't legally go back and issue another Default Notice on a terminated account.

Have a read here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2166205.html

 

Elsa x

  • Haha 1

PLEASE NOTE... I AM MOST SORRY BUT I HAVE VERY LIMITED AVAILABILITY AT THE MOMENT DUE TO EXTREME PRESSURE OF WORK - IF YOU REQUIRE URGENT HELP ON YOUR THREAD AND ARE GETTING NO RESPONSE PLEASE HIT THE TRIANGLE FOR SITE TEAM ASSISTANCE. ELSA XXX

 

Please check out my BLOG for the quick guide to debt threats - it has all the info & letter template links you need to get started on your journey of TAKING CONTROL. :roll:

 

All opinions are my own based on research. I am not legally qualified, if in doubt please consult a legal expert.

Hope this has helped or made you smile. Keep your chin up, you're among friends now! Elsa xxx

Please click the *star* of any CAG member who has helped you .

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Done lots of reading and amended the complaints in the letter to this. I removed the Invalid default section - keep this for later as you say ;) and added Karenruthj8's line and think its much better, thanks guys.

 

Complaint Details

I will outline the main points applicable in this case for the purposes of my complaint.

Bank Accounts under Collections Control

I am quite sure a financial organisation as large and reputable as yourselves is aware of the terms of the Consumer Credit Act and the obligations and protections contained in this Act. I am therefore confused as to why all my bank accounts are still with the Collections Dept and I am being chased for payment. I am now being forced to deal with an extremely rude, unknowlegeable and incompetent Collections Dept for simply for exercising my legal rights. The loan agreement is in dispute and should not be showing as outstanding arrears or affecting my normal daily banking.

 

I will not accept “that is how our system works” as your systems should not be set up to contravene my rights under the Consumer Credit Act. Should these accounts not return to branch control I will take this as an attempt to punish me or treat me less favourably simply for choosing to exercise my legal right at this time.

 

I also have a serious complaint regarding my treatment as a whole by your Collections Dept which I will be lodging a complaint and supplying full recordings of the phone call this relates to, to be investigated fully.

 

A - Account status – under dispute or not

I note that every time I ask if the bank considers this a dispute you refuse to answer, but your actions are a clear NO. Your staff have advised that your breach of my request has no bearing on the status of my account or the situation. Your advice and behaviour implies the relevant section of the Consumer Credit Act or the OFT guidance on the issue does not apply to RBS, so I ask for final clarification on the banks position on this question – Is my account in dispute or not.

 

B - Default Process

There is also the fact that you are still following the default process in these circumstances, which is also against section 13.6 of the banking Code. A default is placed if I have defaulted on an agreement – since you are unable to supply an agreement you cannot claim I have defaulted on any specific contractual term. Please confirm if you think it is acceptable to place a default on an account under dispute.

 

C - Transfer of bank accounts to CMS

You have also advised that should I not ’remedy’ the default you will transfer my account to Credit Management Services and close access to my normal bank accounts which will then accept credits only. As you have not clearly stated this as an action you intend to take on the default notice – as required in Schedule 2, Section 6 of the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 - I do not believe you are entitled to take this action. Again, I will not accept “that is how our system works” as you are taking this specific action on my bank accounts upon a perceived default on my loan account and Schedule 2, Section 6 of this Act requires that your default notice details a clear unambiguous statement of your intended actions upon default.

 

Your staff also advised both 2 days and then 3-4 weeks for this to happen and as I now cannot reasonably rely on their advice or know which to believe, please confirm the process and timescales involved in the event of this transfer.

 

 

D - Data Protection Act

Further to this you cannot provide proof of my signed permission to share this data with third parties, including credit reference agencies. I will point out that this loan account has never shown on my credit file, and if RBS decide now, only in the event of this perceived ‘default’ to record this account, it would be clear you are using the default procedure purely as a punishment for exercising a legal right. For avoidance of doubt I have enclosed a notice pursuant to Section 10 of the Data Protection Act with regards to the processing of this loan account data.

 

 

 

What I require

A - Clarification finally on the question you refuse to answer: Does you consider your breach of my request for a true signed agreement for this account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8 to constitute a legal dispute on this account? Your staff advise me the account is not in dispute and there are no notes in the system to confirm this. I require you to clarify if my account is in dispute or not within RBS.

 

B - Stop the default process.

 

C - My accounts – (current account and key account) returned to branch control. Should you refuse please confirm this with your reasons and the process, consequences and timescales involved.

 

D – Comply with the Section 10 notice enclosed. Do not mark my credit file with any of the negative information at all relating to this perceived default or take any steps to only now register this account with the Credit Reference Agencies.

 

Upon satisfactory resolution of the issues raised in my dispute I will be happy to come to an amicable repayment arrangement with regard to any amounts proven to be legally owed.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

 

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is still a formal complaint. I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter and await your rapid response.

 

 

 

Yours faithfully


Dipply75

 

I am in no way a legal advisor and only speak from my own experiences and the helpful advice of those in the same boat! :p

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