Halifax - latest response to CCA request - personalised letter!

[Lapchien66]

Summary - account opened around 2001, passed to Wesnot etc, requested CCA 3 months ago, various guttersnipes passed back to Halifax. Now, Halifax have sent this letter:

 

Dear Lapchien66,

 

I enclose a copy of the agreement when the account was first opened together with a copy of the current agreement. By providing this information we have fulfilled our obligation under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act.

(Just the usual print out of some terms and conditions that so many lon here have had)

 

The regulations define what is required of a “copy”. Whilst regulation 3 provides “every copy” of an executed agreement… shall be a true copy”. Regulation 3(2) (b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature.

 

At the moment we are not able to provide a copy of the original signed agreement, however we can confirm that our procedure has always been to obtain our customers signature to an agreement containing the prescribed terms before entering into a credit card agreement. As such, we are confident that the agreement remains enforceable.

 

However, even if an agreement is unenforceable, the contract still has legal effect and is not void, the lender is merely prevented from seeking an enforcement order from the court. It has always been our process to ensure that an agreement compiling with the CCA requirements would have been signed by the customer before setting up a credit card account. Should this matter proceed to court we will adduce evidence to confirm this.

 

I hope this clarifies our position.

 

Now, I can just hear most of you scoffing at some of the comments here - what they seem to be saying is that the agreement is enforceable just because of the way the bank usually opens card accounts, in spite of not having an agreement!

 

Anyone care to comment or assist with a snappy response? Something along the lines of "bog off" (but in a little more legal-ees!)?

 

Thanks

 

Lapchien

Edited June 27, 2009 by Lapchien66

[angryandy]

Haha. Cracking letter that. I would personally write back and let them know what they have sent you are just their terms and agreements.

They have nothing on them to say you agreed to them. I would get the ball rolling and tell them you will not pay one more penny to them. We shall then see if they take you to court!!! It won't happen.

I had a similar situation with Natwest and when i asked for my cca they wrote to me saying they had misplaced or misfiled it and as such they said they couldn't enforce the debt. That was about 6 months ago. Heard nothing since.

On a final note though you have got to give Halifax there due, God likes a tryer.

[sunflower99]

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfill your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

My request remains outstanding. An unsigned credit agreement with no personal details on it, like the one you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. A blank agreement neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.[/font]

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

You had until ??/??.2009 (12+2 working days after the request was made) to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office the time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 + 2 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation.

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit information industry.[/font]

I expect you to write to me confirming that the account has been closed and no further action will be taken.

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

[sunflower99]

would this letter amended suit? i will try and find some others

[sunflower99]

Account Number

Account In Dispute

Re; Barclaycards recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I am writing to say that i made a request to Barclycard on ---2009 under section 77-9 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for a true copy of my agreement

I note that they have replied to the above by sending their companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that the company is still in default under the act..I wrote to Barclaycard on ----2009 informing them of this.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

[Lapchien66]

Thanks Sunflower - I like the first letter, I think I will amend and send on Monday.

[sunflower99]

I used both these letters in my Barclayshark dispute as like you and Halifax they insist on just supplying me with some unsigned ts and cs!

[sunflower99]

Thanks Sunflower - I like the first letter, I think I will amend and send on Monday.

Glad to have been of help!

[kurvaface]

However, even if an agreement is unenforceable, the contract still has legal effect and is not void, the lender is merely prevented from seeking an enforcement order from the court. It has always been our process to ensure that an agreement compiling with the CCA requirements would have been signed by the customer before setting up a credit card account. Should this matter proceed to court we will adduce evidence to confirm this.

 

Wow. If I was thick skinned I would let them take me to court.

[clemma]

If you want, tell them to take you to court.......They know full well that without an agreement, this CANNOT be enforced. I'll bet this is passed on to some low-life to chase soon.......then you can start riding the DCA merry-go-round

[sunflower99]

At least when Halifax play pass the parcel with you unenforceable alleged agreement in a desperate attempt to get peanuts for it as they know it is unenforceable:D when you write to these pondfeeder pointing out what above letters say or send them the bemused lettter most of them will give up once you show them you know your rights about unenforceable ccas ! and you show them you not an easy target most of them soon do a runner:D

Edited June 28, 2009 by sunflower99

[ScarletPimpernel]

Frankly, I wouldn't bother responding.

 

They know the debt is unenforceable, and they will also know (despite their attempt to mislead), that the only acceptable evidence to enforce in court is the original executed agreement, which they do not have. Their aim is to try to maintain contact; most DCAs and creditors think they're still in with a chance whilst you are communicating with them.

 

So, I'd ignore them. If they threaten court again, you can hit them with a CPR request for the documents (including the agreement), which they cannot fulfill with an example document, but I'd let them make the move first.

[sunflower99]

Summary - account opened around 2001, passed to Wesnot etc, requested CCA 3 months ago, various guttersnipes passed back to Halifax. Now, Halifax have sent this letter:

 

Dear Lapchien66,

 

I enclose a copy of the agreement when the account was first opened together with a copy of the current agreement. By providing this information we have fulfilled our obligation under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act.

(Just the usual print out of some terms and conditions that so many lon here have had)

 

The regulations define what is required of a “copy”. Whilst regulation 3 provides “every copy” of an executed agreement… shall be a true copy”. Regulation 3(2) (b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature.

 

At the moment we are not able to provide a copy of the original signed agreement, however we can confirm that our procedure has always been to obtain our customers signature to an agreement containing the prescribed terms before entering into a credit card agreement. As such, we are confident that the agreement remains enforceable.

 

However, even if an agreement is unenforceable, the contract still has legal effect and is not void, the lender is merely prevented from seeking an enforcement order from the court. It has always been our process to ensure that an agreement compiling with the CCA requirements would have been signed by the customer before setting up a credit card account. Should this matter proceed to court we will adduce evidence to confirm this.

 

I hope this clarifies our position.

 

Now, I can just hear most of you scoffing at some of the comments here - what they seem to be saying is that the agreement is enforceable just because of the way the bank usually opens card accounts, in spite of not having an agreement!

 

Anyone care to comment or assist with a snappy response? Something along the lines of "bog off" (but in a little more legal-ees!)?

 

Thanks

 

Lapchien

Hi Lapchien!

That Halifax letter makes me laugh!:DThey do contradict themselves! One minute they admit it legally unenforceable! and they can not produce originall alleged enforceable agreement next minute they are saying they can prove it in court! They need to make their minds up! LOL What plonkers!

[Lapchien66]

Update - after an exchange of letters with Iqor (bog off, it's in dispute, don't call me or else etc), they have written saying that they have passed it back to Halifax and have closed their files. Quite a grovelling latter, even by their standards!

 

A few days later another letter from Halifax, offering 40% off, and a threat at the end, "If you choose not to take up this offer... we may sell your debt to a debt collection agency who will continue to pursue your full debt"

 

How can they lawfully pursue this account when it is in dispute? Anyone able to give me some help with an appropriate response?

[IdaInFife]

Dear Halifax,

 

Thank you for letter dated xx/xx/xx confirming that no credit agreement exisits for the above alleged account.

 

I can know confirm that I will be offering no payments towards the above account until such time you can produce a valid and properly executed agreement for the above account.

 

Any further contact from yourselves or agents acting on your behalf will be forwarded to the appropriate authorities and regulating bodies and will treated as harrassment.

 

No fook off,

 

Laps,

 

Ida x

[babybear39]

Mention Furguson V British Gas Trading re their harassment