Newlyn Smashed Up Car Window While My Girlfriend Was In It After Refusing Part Payment Of £1000 In Police Presence !!!!

[kenze]

Read the email sent by my cousin below :

 

To whom it may concern,

 

I would like to know where or whom I should complain to about a recent visit from Newlyn Bailiffs sent by a local authority for outstanding parking fines on my cousins motor vehicle, a 2002 Toyota Celica.

 

The vehicle was apparently photographed with two wheels on the curb on two occasions, parking fines where dispatched to my cousins previous address as he had not changed the V5 DVLA vehicle registration document advising the change of address ( he has taken out a log book loan with a broker and had not finished repaying so the V5 was not in his possession to send to the DVLA to advise this change).

 

On Saturday 4th April 2009, a Bailiff vehicle with Automatic Number Plate Recognition cameras identified the Toyota as being a vehicle with outstanding parking fines.

 

The Bailiffs clamped the car around 6AM in the morning.

 

My cousin discovered the clamp around 11AM apon leaving his new address, two Bailiffs were standing by the vehicle, when asked why they had clamped the car they explained there was a Warrant Of Execution for two unpaid penalty charges, £155 for each PCN totalling £310 from Bromley Council, plus £690 Bailiffs charges, my cousin called me for help in settling this financial matter.

 

Apon my arrival my cousin advised me the Bailiffs had called a tow truck to take the car away as he could not come up with the money immediately,

 

From the Bailiffs I requested that they provide documentation showing the warrant they were executing and for them to show some identification. They took my cousin over to their van and opened a laptop computer and showed him two Warrant Of Execution documents, he requested a printout so the Bailiff went away for a period and came back with this, they also showed him their ID's.

 

I offerred to pay the £310 for the unpaid penalty charges on my credit card and this was promptly refused as they demanded £1000 or the car would be taken, I explained to them that I would not be willing to put that amount on my card and that taking the car would not be an option if they refused my offer of payment, their response was to call the Police on a pretext that there was about to be a breach of the peace. I recognized this as a intimidating tactic and suggested that they do call the Police as their charges were grossly exuberant and it appeared they were piggy backing the justice system to extort money for their own a personal gain or for others.

 

Two Police officers arrived promptly and later a tow truck, my cousins girlfriend sat in his Toyota vehicle while he ran around trying to contact the local authority to verify the unpaid penalty claims made by the two Bailiffs, as he had no previous knowledge of fines being levied against the vehicle. This took some time to get through to anyone so the Bailiffs started started knocking on his front door demanding that he come out.

 

After an hour of pleading for the Bailiff to accept my offer of £310 another Police Officer arrived (I am not sure why there was a need for three police officers as there was no raised voices or gestures being offered to the two Bailiffs). Two hours passed and a further two police officers arrived, now a total of five police officers. The Bailiffs still being unable to tow the vehicle as the young lady was still sat inside with the doors locked were no becoming angry and calling me an idiot as I was telling them their actions were unprofessional. The police officers were now fed up at being called to this dispute and getting deperate to go, telling us "the car now belong to the court as there was a Warrant of Executon", I told them respectively that they were wrong. In fact one said to my cousin, "can't you see that you have got five police officers here when that could be doing something more important", I asked the officer "why is there five of you here", he turned to me but could not provide an answer.

 

The Bailiff asked the tow truck driver for help in opening up the car door, he refused and said he was only there to tow the car and is not getting involved.

 

One of the Bailiffs (Mr Gideon Grundeling) then went to his van and came back with a car jack, he went away again and came back with a wheel brace and immediately started smashing at the drivers window, the first three blows echoed the street, the fourth blow shattered the drivers car door window showering the visibly shaken lady in shards of glass. The Bailiff entered the Toyota from the drivers side, reached over and opened the passengers door, one of the five police officers who stood by watching the Bailiffs unlawful actions approached the youg lady still sitting in the car and said she would be arrested for obstruction if she did not leave the vehicle, so she did.

 

The tow truck which had already lowered its spectacle lifts behind the wheels of the Toyota very quickly lifted the car and drove away, followed by the Bailiffs in their van and three police cars, leaving us with no notice that the car had been seized. The young lady was not cut by the flying glass luckily, but she was clearly shaken by the experience. The police who (apparently) have a duty of care to us citizens showed none, I hate to think what could have happened if the wheel brace flew out of his hand into the car.

 

I have since paid the outstanding fines directly to the local authority on behalf of my cousin, but I can't stomach paying extortion money, so unfortunately they still have the car and have since added charges for the tow truck and storage, they are now asking for £1400..........help.

 

OK SO THAT WAS THE EMAIL....

 

The car is under finance with logbook loans. Logbook loans contacted me saying that the bailiffs had been in touch with them and that they invoiced them around £300 to release the car. I told them not to get involved. So i spoke to the bailiffs like a day later and then quoted me £802.93 for the release. They still havn't said anything about the repair of my vehicle yet.

 

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!!!!

[ScarletPimpernel]

It seems to me that there are a number of separate issues here:

 

- the behaviour of the bailiffs

- the bailiff's excessive charges

- the bailiff's levying on, and removing, a car which apparently belongs to someone else (i.e. LBL)

- the way in which the police handled (or mishandled) the matter

 

Others are far more knowledgeable than me about how to deal with the bailiff issues, so I shall leave it to them

 

As far as the police are concerned, however, I'd be inclined to visit the police station and ask to speak to the Duty Inspector (on the basis that you are considering a formal complaint). I'd be asking for an explanation about the number of police officers who attended; why they involved themselves in civil matter, and what authority they were acting under to assist the bailiffs; when they threatened to arrest the female for obstruction, who did they think she was obstructing; why did they fail to act over the removal by the bailiffs of the car that belonged to someone else, and the criminal damage to it?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The car is the property of Logbook Loans so the bailiff has an invalid levy so you are not liable for any bailiffs relating to the levy. The bottom line is your car is probably a lost cause and if you were the driver, you are liable for the £310 parking tickets plus £109.20 bailiff's fees. If you have paid the tickets direct to the council then no bailiff's fees are due. But its not all bad news, you can file a claim against the council for all your financial losses including the loss of use of your car because of invalid levy and you have a right to ask the council to pay you compensation for receiving an over-zealous bailiff who tried to cheat you of £1400.

 

The financial cost of the damage repairs to the car is a matter between Logbook Loans and the bailiff because the car is subject to damage belongs to Logbook Loans. The law doesnt provide for bailiffs to damage goods regardless whether or not those goods belong to the debtor and this is a matter for the bailiff's liability insurer.

 

As the goods do not belong to you, you cannot claim damage to property against the bailiff but you can ask police to investigate the criminal element under the Criminal Damage Act 1971.

 

If your girlfriend sustained injury then speak to a personal Injury lawyer and start proceedings under the Personal Injury Protocol. She might have a case to make a complaint to police under Section 42 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861.

 

The bailiff is charging you £1400 in fees. The law prescribing bailiffs fees for unpaid parking tickets is Schedule 1 of the Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiffs)(Amended 2003) Regulations 1993. It provides £11.20 for sending a letter and 28% on the debt. The maximum a bailiffs fees are £109.20 (£11.20 x 2 and 28% on £155 x 2). The law only allows reasonable costs for transporting goods and storing goods subject to levy but as the goods moved by the bailiff do not belong to you, no fee applies. The £109.20 plus the 2 x £155 was all you owed.

 

The bailiff has committed an offence contrary to Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006. It is called fraud by false representation because he tried to charge you £800 fees and later by asking for £1400. Keep the bailiffs document & make lots of copies showing those fees, they are crucial evidence confirming fraud has taken place. You can ask Police to investigate the crime. Always ask for a crime number and this can be used to exonerate you of liability from action brought against you by Logbook Loans for damage to their property.

 

If the police were in attendance and saw damage to property being caused by a bailiff and a bailiff trying to defraud you with his fees yet they failed to impede the bailiff from doing so, then the police officers may themselves be guilty of offences under Section 4 of the Criminal Law Act 1967. It is called Assisting an Offender and you can make a complaint addressed to the force Chief Police officer. Contact the IPCC and make a further complaint if the police force you are complaining about become uncooperative or tries a cover-up to protect their officers from a criminal investigation.

 

You have a right to make an official complaint against the bailiff in charge. Phone the Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs on 020 3334 6355 and ask which court issued his certificate, then download the complaint form http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf and send the form to the certificating court enclosing supporting evidence such as the bailiffs document showing the unlawful fees and a any amounts paid.

 

Your neighbours who witnessed the event can also make official Form 4 complaints against the bailiff as well, even though they are not debtors, hey can complain about the bailiffs causing a public disturbance.

[kenze]

Thanks Happy,

 

I forgot to mention that he grabbed my bunch of keys and refused to give them back. Then took the car keys and buggered off. GOD knows what they've done to it.

 

The i've sent the formal bailiff complaint to Croydon Council. The bailiffs didn't leave any documentation of fees with me. I have his mobile number. I think he knows that i've paid the council for the tickets.

 

Should i ask him to send them now or is it too late ?

Should i ask logbook loans to get the car back for me now ? They were quoted about £300 to get the car back but under the condition that i pick the car up. I don't think they have repaired the glass.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The complaint against the bailiff is addressed to the court that issued his certificate and not to the council. Paragraph 8 of my original post tells you how its done.

 

If your bunch of keys contains your house keys then you need to change your locks and send the bill to Croydon Council along with a list of all your other disbursements including recovery and repairs to the car. Have your breakdown recovery pick up your car and take it to a garage for repairs, the bill goes to the Council. They are liable for their bailiffs. You can also claim your rental car costs while your car is in for repairs.

 

If the bailiff didnt leave a note detailing his fees then how do you know he asked for £800?/£1400? They should have left a notice of seizure and if he didnt then add that to the Form 4.

 

If you choose to pay £300 to get your card back then pay with a credit card then charge it on to Croydon Council because it was seized in an invalid levy.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Be prepared that if you do get the Car back, the interior may be water damaged...and it could also be rat infested!

 

I doubt these idiots sealed the broken window.

 

The Yards they keep the vehicles in tend to be open air, and hardly clean and tidy sites. So, don't be too surprised if Roland Rat has made a nice new comfy home for himself in the Glove Box.

 

This does happen as rodents are attracted to things like sweetie wrappers and any signs of take-away bits and bobs that have fallen under the seats etc!

 

Likewise, bigger human rats may have removed the Tool Kit, drained the fuel and prised out the Stereo too by now. Anything of value that can be carried away often is.

 

So, do check the Car fully before taking it back, and if you spot any issues, missing items or further damage/deterioration, then you must point out all of these issues before you leave with it. Take a Pad and Pen, make two Lists, and get one signed by the Yard Staff handing over the Car (get their full name). Take a Camera too if you can, to capture the evidence whilst the Car is still in the Yard.

 

Then make a further Claim if needed.

 

It is a grubby business run by grubby people.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[fwog]

Once they lowered the bar, it opens a new door in how to deal with them. Would you blame anyone who uses force to defend themselves during a bailiff visit after reading this?

Absolutely shocking behaviour, like the detritus said' he has the weight of the law behind him' so why use thug tactics? Theyre operating on behalf of a Local Authority not the Nazi Party.

 

God ,I dont know why I let it wind me up:mad:

 

Fwog

[noomill060]

Subbing.

 

The bailiff system was abolished in N.Ireland in 1971.

 

The IRA had declared them to be Crown Servants, and as such "legitimate targets" Many were discovered in ditches on the Border with large holes in their heads (ironically still clutching their Warrants of Execution)

 

The system was replaced with a far more civilised method, entirely administered through, and by the Courts under the supervision of a High Court judge.

 

I dont condone terrorist activity, however as this system sadly only applies in N.Ireland, it would appear that in this instance the Establishment abolished a repressive arm of the state, albeit only in response to illegal force of arms.

 

I write this merely as an observation of real politic.

 

Dont try this at home, kids.

[Fair-Parking]

This is another example of appalling behaviour by bailiffs and appalling behaviour by the police (the Met again) who inconceivably but permanently seem to be under the fatal misapprehension that it ss a criminal matter when bailiffs try to levy (ie the OP's party wrongfully having deemed to have broken the law) and a civil matter after the bailiff has smashed his way into property he had no rights over.

 

Most of us might think that the reverse was true.....

 

The problem with complaining to the police is that they really do not understand the law and think that a warrant typed in a bailiffs office - a private bailiffs office, is the same as the legal warrant they receive from the magistrates court.

 

I'd be happy to speak to the police on this if it might help.

[k1mmie]

Make sure you file your Form 4 complaint against the bailiff, send it to Northampton County court, as this comes under their local court. I sent mine this week, so if the get a few together they may take us all seriously.

[letsmakeamark]

AS long as he still works for them and also he has a valid bond.

[kenze]

Think newlyn might be trying it. The first couple of working days after they wrongfully towed the vehicle i insisted on speaking to someone from the head office. When i tried this i was told that i can only discuss the matter with the bailiff who shattered the window. I didn't want to do this because he seemed incompetent and unprofessional. I wanted to get formal documentation and a fee breakdown. I was left with no option but to speak to a one man band about this matter.

 

When i did he said £1400 in total for the fees and vehicle release.

The Finance company was quoted approx £300.

This doesn't make sense.

 

I got contact details for the person that quoted the Finance company.

 

He must have realised that i was trying to record the call and said that he'll call me back. I then got a call back from the Head Office (from which i was unable to get any prior information) i asked them to send me hard copies of the breakdown of fees.

 

I finally received a letter in the post from them yesterday.

 

They sent me....two docs related to the two tickets.

However....one's for approx £1000 and the other for approx £400.

 

Is this some kind of defensive tactic ? How does two tickets issued days apart from each other amount to that ?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Regards

Kenze

Edited April 23, 2009 by kenze

[andie_303]

subbing

[if_ihadahammer]

A couple of contributors above have suggested that the bailiffs could not lawfully levy on the car because it is owned by Log Book Loans, therefore the whole levy is invalid. This would certainly be true if we were talking about a Hire Purchase, since the HP firm would own the vehicle. But LBL specialise in Bills of Sale, not hire purchase.

 

Bills of sale are agreements where you borrow money and put your car up as security - a bit like taking out a mortgage on a house. The loan company can take action to take possession of the car if you default on the loan, but unless they do, the car remains your property and can lawfully be treated as such by a bailiff.

 

Obviously there are a whole host of other issues surrounding this levy - I just wanted to point out the question of ownership since it will be central to how you would proceed with any dispute.

[dx100uk]

so one must ask what is happening now 3mts later?

 

dx

[woody1066]

Good Question

[letsmakeamark]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/173481-devon-cornwall-police-guidelines.html

 

Gives you on what the guidance is for all police forces across the uk.

[lets fight bailiffs]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/173481-devon-cornwall-police-guidelines.html

 

Gives you on what the guidance is for all police forces across the uk.

 

this is what the law does

 

SOUTH OXHEY:A bailiff who knocked out five of a man’s front teeth was acting in self defence, a jury decided.

Glyn Pugh rang police to say a man he believed may be a bailiff had entered his home in St Andrews Road, South Oxhey and attacked him for no reason.

Mr Pugh said he was in his flat when a black male “who could have been a bailiff” walked into his address and punched him in the mouth after an argument.

Raymond Christian, 49, was acting as a bailiff, although the court heard his licence had expired, when he claimed Mr Pugh ran at him.

The defendant said he raised his arms to defend himself and Mr Pugh caught his elbow, knocking himself out and several of his teeth at the same time.

During the trial at St Albans Crown Court PC Barbara Dorsi told the jury about the scene she discovered when she arrived at Mr Pugh’s flat on November 20, 2007.

She and another officer on mobile patrol were called about 5pm and found Mr Pugh bleeding from the mouth.

He told them someone he thought was probably a bailiff had walked into his address to remove his possessions and they had an argument before he was assaulted.

Christian, of Alma Road, Eton Wick, Windsor, was asked to leave and refused, punching Mr Pugh in the face and causing him to fall in the hallway, the court was told. When police arrived they saw blood in the hallway and found four teeth on the floor.

Mr Pugh was taken to Watford General Hospital where he was initially treated for the loss of three top teeth and two from the bottom of his mouth.

A doctor noted that the injuries, including a painful jaw, were consistent with the patient’s claim he had been punched.

However, taking to the witness box, the defendant said it was Mr Pugh that had been the aggressor and that he was just trying to do his job.

He also denied further allegations he had continued striking Mr Pugh. The jury believed his account and cleared Christian of ABH.

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[danboy381]

And this meatheads licence had expired? [EDIT] That says it all.

 

Maybe the Jury were all members of the HCEO association... nothing would surprise me these days...

Edited July 20, 2009 by Rooster-UK
Circumventing the swear filter!

[kenze]

Just so you guys know. The car was released at no cost but damages etc still outstanding. I was told that the document/form used as a warrant was outdated (legislation reference). I don't know what happened next...i was too stressed to chase up. These people wreck lives...and if mankind to make them pay....life will. trust me!!!

[k1mmie]

What document did they leave you that you say is outdated? In a similar situation with Newlyn. Thanks

[kenze]

I havn't got specifics at the moment. However the warrant was scrutinized by a legal expert. The form used and issued by Croydon council had reference to something (legislation) that had been abolished in 1994.

[hallowitch]

I haven't got specifics at the moment. However the warrant was scrutinised by a legal expert. The form used and issued by Croydon council had reference to something (legislation) that had been abolished in 1994.

 

now thats interesting hopefully you will find out more and post it on here

Thanks for keeping this thread up to date and look forward to your next post

[Fair-Parking]

Kenze. Can I use this incident on my web site to warn others of bailiff abuse and police incompetence?

[k1mmie]

The reason I asked was that the form I had left was laughable. No figures just a diagram of a car like you get from a car hire company.