cupcake68 Vs Virgin **DISCONTINUED**

[cupcake68]

Hokey Kokey!

 

Will do

 

Thanks

 

CC68

[cupcake68]

Hi!

 

Could you lovely people please have a look at this CCA for me please?

 

AC MBNA pictures by cupcake62 - Photobucket

 

Thank you!

 

Cupcake68

[cupcake68]

Hi

 

I have another MBNA CCA to add to my long list!!

 

TC MBNA CCA Rec 190609 pictures by cupcake62 - Photobucket

 

Could anyone tell me if it is enforceable please?

 

Many thanks

 

CC68

[steven4064]

Yes it is - the 2nd page posted has the prescribed terms and your signature - that is all that is needed

[steven4064]

Yes, for the same reasons as the other one

[cupcake68]

Oh Dear!!

[cupcake68]

Hi Steven

 

Thanks for replying.

 

Does that mean this one is too? http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/194039-cupcake68-virgin-2.html

 

You will see from the thread that I was under the impression it's not but now obviously I'm beginning to wonder!

 

Thanks

 

CC68

[cupcake68]

Hmm!

 

Just posted another CCA received for another account and been told it is enforceable. It's almost identical to this one!!

 

Now I'm really worried!

 

CC68

[steven4064]

Yes that Virgin one is identical to this one and enforceable for the same reasons IMO

[cupcake68]

Thanks again Steven.

 

Obviously I appreciate this site enormously because without it I don't know where I would be but I am now really concerned about what I have read (and thought I had learnt) from it.

 

I am now really worried that I have taken advice and it's not nesessarily correct and also read other posts that have been incorrect!

 

CC68

[steven4064]

Have a look at the link in my signature about the enforceability of agreements - hopefully all is explained there.

 

Have you acted on advice you now doubt?

[cupcake68]

Yes I think I may have!

 

My trouble is I did not know about any of this four months ago. Because of my situation I have had to do 30 CCA's at the same time and I am both desperate to find a solution to it all but equally terrified of making my situation worse!

 

I know doubt what I have been told and what I have learnt and think maybe I have just made everything worse!

 

Maybe I'll be a bit more positive tomorrrow!

 

Sorry!

 

CC68

[steven4064]

Perhaps you can give a quick resume of your situation, what you have asked for and what you have done with it. A fresh pair of eye may see things more clearly

 

I know you have several threads - normally we advise this as people with experience of different companies can help. From the sound of it, though, in your case an overview of the whole may be helpful.

[cupcake68]

We have a very nasty 2nd charge on our property, not only high interest rate but also particularly difficult terms and conditions.

 

These include having the right to withdraw the loan if we come to an agreement with our creditors!

 

We also have a very high outstanding debt on our credit cards 30 cards in total.

 

Therefore after being offered (the rankines co) to sell my credit card debts (which sounded really dodgey!) I found this site which opened my eyes to the unenforceability issues of many older cards (which most of ours are) I requested a copy of all our cards CCA's in March.

 

We had never missed a payment before then but were unable to make the minimum payments required in March.

 

Of all the CCA's we've had back and all the fantastic advice I have been given so far we have been advised that only 2 of them are enforceable.

 

I have had several DN during the last few weeks all of which I have been advised are defective in one way or another.

 

I have been very careful to keep all the files seperate to try not confuse things but I am still very unsure about whether I have grasped things correctly so have been relying on kind offers of advice on each thread and have followed the advice to the letter.

 

After posting these two MBNA ones today and you telling me this one (I did think the other might have had all the necessary on it) I have come to doubt all the other advice I have taken.

 

I feel really bad because this site is all about people teaching each other but I now don't really know which way to turn again!

 

Thanks for your time

 

CC68

[steven4064]

THanks for that.

 

I will give you some simple tests to apply to your agreements to check the enforceability, and then something about DNs.

 

Agreements

 

Firstly, we distinguish between what constitutes a valid reply to a request under s78(1), what constitutes a properly executed agreement and what constitues an enforceable agreement - and people often get these 3 things confused.

 

However, there is a 'bottom line' defined in s127 of the CCA 1974. To be enforceable, an agreement must consist of a single document, which contains your signature and the prescribed terms and your right to cancel. For a credit card the prescribed terms are a statement about the credit limit, a statement about repayment terms and a statement about the interest rate.

 

If any of these conditions is not met, the agreement is not enforceable.

 

All these requirements are laid down in h the CCA 1974 and associated regulations and cannot be varied. The main question is about what does a single document mean? IMO it means a single piece of paper, maybe double-sided. Often a copy will actually be two pieces of paper (a copy of each side) - I think a court would say this was a single document if the balance of probabilities was that the two pieces of paper belonged together. Normally, this is fairly obvious. For example, if they are not the same size, then the balance of probabilities is that they do not belong together, and so on.

 

DNs

 

The wording and layout of DNs is laid down in great detail in the regulations. Where creditors get it wrong are mainly (but not always) in one of 4 areas:

 

1. the get the amount of the debt wrong

 

2. they don't properly spell out the breach of the agreement that you are supposed to have committed

 

2. they don't allow 14 clear days for the breach to be remedied. Usually, they forget that the law says that a notice is deemed served on the second working day after it is posted and they have to allow 14 days after that. So they will post it on a Friday, forgetting that it is not then deemed served until the Tuesday or they will say something like "fourteen days from the date of this notice"

 

3. They give the remedial action as "repayment of the sum in full" - they are only allowed to demand full repayment if they terminate the account and they are only allowed to do that if the breach is not remedied within 14 days - circular argument

 

Hope this helps

[cupcake68]

Thanks Steven

 

I will take a look at each agreement tomorrow when I am in a better mood!! and try to define what is wrong with each one.

 

Your help is really appreciated

 

CC68

[diddydicky]

Hmm!

 

Just posted another CCA received for another account and been told it is enforceable. It's almost identical to this one!!

 

Now I'm really worried!

 

CC68

 

"almost" can be a whole new universe! where is this new cca posted?

[cupcake68]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/205714-cupcake-mbna-him.html

 

I'm totally confused (and scared!) by all this now.

 

Any help is really appreciated

 

Thanks

 

Cupcake

[diddydicky]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/205714-cupcake-mbna-him.html

 

I'm totally confused (and scared!) by all this now.

 

Any help is really appreciated

 

Thanks

 

Cupcake

 

well the creditor themselves have freely admitted that the document sent to you is "not very clear"

 

they are required by law under the cancellation notices and copy of document regulations 1983 (2) to provide "easily legible " copies

 

therefore by their own admission they are in default and can neither enforce or add charges/interest nor give information to 3rd parties

 

why don't you concentrate their minds on this little failing as until the do provide you with easily legible copies they remain in dispute

 

you could also use this as a lever by suggesting that if they have difficulty providing an easily legible copy they should arrange he original agreement to have the original agreement sent to an office near to you where you can inspect it

[cupcake68]

Thanks for looking DD

 

I think I have made a bit of a mistake in what I have learnt.

 

What is the diference between an improperly executed agreement and an unenforceable one?

 

The CCA they sent me was not terribly clear but I could just about read it so I don't know how much point there is in saying it's not clear (I'm actually surprised they even mentioned it wasn't clear!)

 

So...!

 

You are right it does say Credit Agreement not credit card agreement under the title - application form and as I said in post 43 there are a couple of other points but what I don't know is if they are enough?

 

Thanks again

 

cupcake

[diddydicky]

in a nutshell

 

 

an improperly executed agreement is one that contains a MINOR mistake or ommission which renders the agreement enforceable only by order of a court such as wrong heading, misspelt name , lack of creditors signature etc

 

However for agreements entered into before April 2007 if the creditor has failed to ensure that the prescribed terms are within the 4 corners of the signed agreement then sec7 127(3) prevents the court from being able to put the fault right or make it enforceable.

 

this rule was changed he 2006 revisions and agreements entered into after april 2007 which fall foul of these rules will be considered individually on their merits.

[diddydicky]

an application form normally is a pre contractual document, however can be considered as an agreement IF it contains the prescribed terms on the signature page and has the terms and conditions as part of the same document

[diddydicky]

Thanks for looking DD

 

I think I have made a bit of a mistake in what I have learnt.

 

What is the diference between an improperly executed agreement and an unenforceable one?

 

The CCA they sent me was not terribly clear but I could just about read it so I don't know how much point there is in saying it's not clear (I'm actually surprised they even mentioned it wasn't clear!)

 

So...!

 

You are right it does say Credit Agreement not credit card agreement under the title - application form and as I said in post 43 there are a couple of other points but what I don't know is if they are enough?

 

Thanks again

 

cupcake

 

the legistation (unlike the agreement you have ) is CRYSTAL CLEAR

 

it cannot be legigble just legible barely legible largely legible it has to be

 

EASILY LEGIBLE

[cupcake68]

SO!

 

The fact that they are admitting in their covering letter that it is "not very clear" puts them on the back foot?

 

So do I need to worry that I have sent that letter or shall I just wait to see what they do in reply?

 

Cupcake

[cupcake68]

Also!

 

The other minor things like not saying credit card agreement enough to make it improperly executed?

 

What about the mention of section 11 when there is no section 11 on the page?

 

And the other mention of the seperate t and c's - is that allowed?

 

cupcake