OH v BLS/LTSB

[citizenB]

Cy, have you looked at the thread which is debating/dissecting the Manchester Test Case ?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/240186-dissecting-manchester-test-case.html

 

As claimants in the case above.. the debtors were responsible for proving their claims.

 

In your case, it was for the Bank to do so. The Test case had nothing to do with documents required for court.. only for the the s78 request.

[willtheywontthey]

siom fawr i chi

 

sybbing

[cymruambyth]

Cy, have you looked at the thread which is debating/dissecting the Manchester Test Case ?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/240186-dissecting-manchester-test-case.html

 

As claimants in the case above.. the debtors were responsible for proving their claims.

 

In your case, it was for the Bank to do so. The Test case had nothing to do with documents required for court.. only for the the s78 request.

 

Hi yes, I have put a little SOS there, for clarification ..... if such a thing is possible at this stage in the debate!

[Dorabell]

Sorry to here about your battles good luck in what you do next:)

[cymruambyth]

siom fawr i chi

 

sybbing

 

Diolch yn fawr

[diddydicky]

Yep indeed.... Didnt I read on here or the original email notification message that the judge had had an email with details of the manchester cases that morning... was this a directive or the actual copy of judgment in which case he/she surely wouldnt have had time to dissect it properly prior to your trial?......... or did I just dream all the above

 

S.

 

i'm no expert but is the judge any more entitled to refer to stated cases than anyone else without you having previously been notified of his intention to refer to those cases- so that you can counter his arguments?

[cymruambyth]

i'm no expert but is the judge any more entitled to refer to stated cases than anyone else without you having previously been notified of his intention to refer to those cases- so that you can counter his arguments?

 

I wondered about that and did question it, but obviously not forcefully enough!

[banker_rhymes_with]

Sounds like the Judge didn't need the Claimant, he/she was happy doing their job for them.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[diddydicky]

I wondered about that and did question it, but obviously not forcefully enough!

 

as i said i'm no expert and whilst the judge is free to refer to his white book green book or whatever other book he has reference to , i am sure he cannot

 

a/ argue the claimants claim for him

 

b/ refer to cases stated for the reasons i previously mentioned

 

 

happy to be proved wrong on that one but i doubt it

[Tonka99]

Hello cymruambyth

 

What rotten luck not the start to 2010 you needed ,

however the advice is comming in thick and fast, you

are not alone lots of folks willing to help and support

you.

 

Best Regards

 

Tonks:)

[cymruambyth]

hi everyone thanks for the support and advice. i have sent for the N460 and will post for advice when I receive it.

Should I enquire about the transcript now or can I wait until the form arrives and I have some idea about what I am going to do? Don't want to pay out money I haven't got !

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello C!

 

hi everyone thanks for the support and advice. I have sent for the N460 and will post for advice when I receive it.

 

Should I enquire about the transcript now or can I wait until the form arrives and I have some idea about what I am going to do? Don't want to pay out money I haven't got !

Sadly, the Transcript will be needed ASAP, so it is something that you need to crack on with ASAP.

 

The way it works is you can only use an Authorised Transcriber, but there are many on the Court lists, and their prices do not seem to vary a great deal. There is one I can recommend, only because they have been helpful to several Caggers. I have no link to them other than this. I will PM the details.

 

The Transcript itself is effectively divided into two sections:

 

(1.) The Hearing (without the Judgment).

 

(2.) The Judgment (without the Hearing).

 

The minimum you will need for an Appeal is (2.) The Judgment, although I would advise getting (1.) The Hearing as well, because that is where a lot of the chit chat went on, where you can point to, and quote, specific areas where the Judge misdirected him/her self.

 

There can only ever be one Judgment Transcription, because that is only ever done once, because that has to be approved by the Judge before it is released. In effect, the Judge can and will tweak that and I'm sure it can and will deviate from the actual words spoken and initially transcribed.

 

Anyway, once the Judgment has been done, a 2nd version is not allowed mainly because the Judge won't authorise a 2nd one.

 

The Hearing Transcription can be done more than once, i.e. by two different transcribers, but given the cost are likely to be similar, it is usually cheaper to simply buy a copy from the Transcriber who has already done it. Main problem is knowing if it has been done already!

 

In your case, it's probably unlikely that the opposition will bother with a Transcription, but they will almost certainly want a copy of the Judgment if you Appeal. They will have to buy that from your Transcriber, if so, but that is another matter, and nothing worth getting excited about. In effect, it's a little extra money for that Transcriber. Indeed, they may not bother, because they will get a copy of the Judgment in your Appeal papers anyway. It really depends on how keen they are to see you off at the Appeal, i.e. if they want a copy sooner rather than later.

 

The cost depends on the length of the whole Hearing (i.e. Hearing plus Judgment), and the number of spoken words. The quality of the Tape Recording is also an issue, but you won't know that until the Transcriber moans about it!

 

I can't say a cost, but if the Hearing was, say, 3 hours, then the approximate costs would be £400 for the Hearing and maybe £120 for the Judgment. I could be miles out, but it's in that sort of ball park. If your Hearing was only an hour or two, adjust down, and you won't be far out.

 

To organise the Transcript, you need to firstly select a Transcriber, then download and complete Form EX107:

 

Her Majesty's Courts Service -Forms and Guidance

 

Complete that, and submit to the Court, and they should then release the Tapes directly to your Transcriber.

 

Then the key issues you need to get your head around are:

 

(A.) The Appellant's Notice.

 

Her Majesty's Courts Service -Forms and Guidance

 

(B.) The Grounds for Appeal.

 

This is key, and will be the key legal points to support your Appeal. Start working on this straight away, and people here will, I am sure, give you all the help you need. Read more about Appeals here:

 

PART 52 - APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

And the related Practice Directions here...

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

(C.) The Route for Appeal.

 

This is just the technical route, and will depend on various factors, seniority of Judge, type of Judgment etc. Read all about that here:

 

Her Majesty's Courts Service -Forms and Guidance

 

The following link may also help if you need any CPR Forms:

 

CPR Forms:

 

CPR - Forms - Ministry of Justice

 

OK, now the serious bit, you have just 21 days to submit your Appeal, otherwise you will be out of time, and then into the more hostile zone of making an Appeal Out of Time. You need to avoid that!

 

The main things you will need to collect and collate within the 21 days and include in your Appeal Bundle are the following:

 

The Appeal Bundle

 

(i.) Appellant's Notice.

 

(ii.) Grounds for Appeal, usually included at the end of the above.

 

(iii.) Skeleton Argument (but this can follow +14 days afterwards, so long as you get the main Bundle in within the 21 days).

 

(iv.) The N24 Order of the Judgment (which you should be getting soon anyway).

 

(v.) A completed/sealed/signed copy of Form N460 by the Judge, i.e. where the Judge has stated their reasons for refusing the Appeal.

 

(vi.) The Transcript (preferably Judgment and Hearing).

 

(vii.) Appeal Supporting Documents. That would be everything in effect, bound into chronological order, and page numbered into a 2nd section where anything key can be referenced by your Appellant's Notice or your Grounds for Appeal.

 

The above is not as bad as it looks. The task is mainly a case of getting it all done and collated within the 21 day time frame. The actual doing is not that bad...the N161 is just a Form, and the Grounds for Appeal is just a one or two page document, similar to a Defence, but setting out the key legal points. The rest is mainly bumf, most of which you already have from the Hearing.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited January 6, 2010 by banker_rhymes_with
Typo

[cymruambyth]

N460's delivery is lost in the snow!!!!

Any advice on my grounds for appeal will be gratefully received!

1. incorrect clauses from t&cs listed on the POC and their change permitted by the DJ

2. DN delivered correctly (!?!) but included charges. This was ignored.

3. Manchester discussed and application form with copy typed t&cs was acceptable.

I'll add more when I find them

[foolishgirl]

The N460 will turn up in due course. It's really the transcript that you need to get organised asap, Cy - that will show you exactly what grounds to appeal on. Have you downloaded the applic. form or contacted a transcriber? In view of the weather, it may be possible to fax/email info.

[cymruambyth]

Hi FG haven't been able to do much due to the lack of electricity!

[foolishgirl]

Oh, poor you! The whole world seems to have come to a standstill. Don't worry, the courts should make allowance for it in permitting some flexibility on deadlines.

[cymruambyth]

I also think that the court has been closed!

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello C!

 

It would be wise I think to tell the Court that you are going to Appeal, and add that due to the weather and now a lack of electricity, you will have trouble getting everything ready within the 21 day deadline...although you will submit the Appeal on time, but it may not be complete!

 

That then sets the stage, and nobody can accuse you of making anything up as the deadline looms. It will be on record, and you can show that you advised them well ahead of the deadline...rather than leaving it until the last minute to tell them, which won't look so convincing when the sun is shining and we have nice weather (some hope!).

 

Cheers,

BRW

[cymruambyth]

Hello C!

 

when the sun is shining and we have nice weather (some hope!).

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

I like your optimism:D

[diddydicky]

N460's delivery is lost in the snow!!!!

Any advice on my grounds for appeal will be gratefully received!

1. incorrect clauses from t&cs listed on the POC and their change permitted by the DJ

2. DN delivered correctly (!?!) but included charges. This was ignored.

3. Manchester discussed and application form with copy typed t&cs was acceptable.

I'll add more when I find them

 

the top one hopefully (when you have the transcript) will be that the judge mis directed himself

 

maybe even that he adopted the claimants argument!

[citizenB]

Would the court allow you to fax a copy of the document ?

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello CB!

 

Most Courts would be willing to fax a copy of, say, Form N460, because it's usually just a single page.

 

But the rest is all down to cymruambyth to organise, I regret. The Transcript(s), for example, do not exist until the tapes are sent to the transcriber to create...and the Judgment copy has to go back to the Court for the Judge to read, and then fiddle with until it sounds more flattering for them before their superiors read it! That can take time, particularly if the Judge is tardy in dealing with it.

 

Keep it all in writing, and make a note of all dates so that any blocking tactics by the Judge (to delay things and put pressure on the 21 day timescale) can be shown by the paperwork.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[cymruambyth]

I can fax request, but don't have access for reply:(

We are still living in a post free zone!

[cymruambyth]

A quick question re the production of original agreements.

Original court order was for the production of the original, was then amended to state 'where such documents are in the possession or control of the party relying on them'

Does this have any bearing on grounds for appeal?

Another question: if points were in WS but not raised in court, can they be used in an appeal?

Thank you

[citizenB]

A quick question re the production of original agreements.

Original court order was for the production of the original, was then amended to state 'where such documents are in the possession or control of the party relying on them'

Does this have any bearing on grounds for appeal?

Another question: if points were in WS but not raised in court, can they be used in an appeal?

Thank you

 

You would think so. If the documents were in their possession.. What was their problem bringing them to court ??

 

I think so long as they were in the original witness statement/ defence then you can still rely on that information/evidence. It is NEW evidence that might be difficult to introduce.