Argos CCA received??

[johno23]

How was the account settled?

[mustang67]

Had some spare money at time and just paid it off. About 400.It was the card with the least outstanding on it, so it was one less to worry about!!!! other cards are in thousands!!! Cheers:)

[johnee]

Hi i had the same letter back when i asked for an SAR but on mine its section 78. they still took the ten pound cheque though ?.also the date of the application form and the T/C are a month out. any advice would be appriciated.

[johno23]

Update

 

In a stalemate at mo. Argos send letters to say they have sent what they say is a valid credit agreement.

I have written again to say send the credit agreement again and highlight where all the prescribed terms are on the agreement.

Oh and they have ignored me.

 

Johno23

[johno23]

Do not want to speak too soon, but up to now argos have gone very quiet. Not responded to my last letter which was sent on the 5th May and also Argos have placed absolutely no adverse history on my credit file, marking all payments as received, even though made no payments since dispute letter sent in March!!

 

So all good up to now!!

[the_maverick]

Hi all.

 

Watching this one with great interest as I have just recieved the same 'application form' response to my cca request to Argos. Just out of curiousity have you offered a f&f settlement to them? At the moment I am establishing what all my creditors have in the way of documentation, then was going to offer all a f&f based on what they produce.

 

As anyone had success with f&f settlements to Argos, or anyone else, and if so how much did they settle for?

[johno23]

NO offered them nothing. sent this letter on the 5th May

 

I thank you for your letter dated ? the contents have been noted.

It seems through that Argos Card Services are unsure of their duties so I would like to take this opportunity to remind you of your duties under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true signed copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter sent on the ?. Upon receipt of the original request the specified account legally entered into a disputed status.

 

As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had 12 days to provide me with the true copy I requested. You were also sent a default letter on the 24th March 09. Whilst the account is in default, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agencies (or any third party).

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office.

 

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation.

The only information I have received so far is an application dated 7th February 09 that does not contain the prescribed terms in line with the consumer credit Act 1974, and your terms & conditions dated later on the 9th May 2006. Please note that the original signed credit agreement must be signed by both parties and the terms & conditions are required to be in the same document.

The document that is still outstanding is a signed credit agreement that contains all the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553.

 

The prescribed terms referred to are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following--

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

The prescribed terms cannot be contained within a separate document outside of the agreement.

Since I have not received this document and nor does it contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974.

This means that you are currently in default of my request. Whilst your default continues, you are not entitled to enforce any part of this alleged agreement.

 

This includes, but is not limited to, the following:

You may not demand any payment on this alleged account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

You may not add any further interest or charges to this account.

You may not pass this alleged account to any third party.

You may not register any information in respect of this alleged account with any of the credit reference agencies.

You may not issue a default notice related to this account.

Please also note that to register information with the credit reference agencies, or to issue a default notice, would also be in breach of Section 13.6 of The Banking Code, which stipulates that you can only register such information if the amount owed is not in dispute.

Communicate will only be able to be undertaken in writing, as my telephone numbers have been recently updated.

 

Hope it helps!

[the_maverick]

I took out an Argos card in 2002 so doubt for one minute they have an enforceable agreement. In fact the application form was the only thing I remember signing.

 

The only reason I mention about a f&f settlement is as you might already know the 'debt' will still remain even if they cannot 'enforce' it in court. Granted you can just ignore them forever but I started this because I am really top heavy with debt and the banks would not do anything to help.

 

For example I have 2 credit cards and a loan with one bank and they would not combine the debt to make it one lower payment, and of course better interest terms, as it was not in there interests as I was still paying and upto date.

 

Since then I have found out they do not have agreements for any of the debts!! And on the phone, but not yet on paper, admitted as such!

 

Had they thought about it they could have lumped the debts together under one 'new' enforceable loan...oops!!!

[johno23]

Mavrick you need to start the CPR route and start your own thread you will get more help then of more experienced caggers!

 

good luck

[johno23]

Hi All

 

I have received the following default notice today 22nd June as it was sent 2nd class.

 

It says 14 days to pay arrears from when I receive this notification. It does not actually give a date that it needs to be paid by.

 

The account is currently still in dispute.

 

Can someone please advice on wether the notice is valid.

 

Many Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

[cerberusalert]

It's defective, it must specify a date which you have to remedy the default by. All you have to do now is sit back & wait for them to terminate the a/c & then all they can legally claim are the arrears.

[johno23]

excellent, thanks, cerbs your a star!

[the_maverick]

Hi Johno,

 

From my experience it is all part of the 'game'. If a bank does not have an enforceable agreement they will ignore the fact the account is in dispute and still issue default notices, send debt collectors and maybe even start legal proceedings all designed to scare you into paying.

 

All are destined to fail though without the proper agreement!

 

Can I ask, have you sent a SAR request to Argos yet? Just about to send one myself and has you are ahead of me on this particular comapny wondered if you had any response from them?

[cerberusalert]

excellent, thanks, cerbs your a star!

 

This will explain in greater detail; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2166205.html

[pecky1]

Hi just to let you know i cca argos in july 2007 still waiting for cca they will just pass it around like a merry go round just stick with it

Pecky1

[johno23]

Hi Johno,

 

From my experience it is all part of the 'game'. If a bank does not have an enforceable agreement they will ignore the fact the account is in dispute and still issue default notices, send debt collectors and maybe even start legal proceedings all designed to scare you into paying.

 

All are destined to fail though without the proper agreement!

 

Can I ask, have you sent a SAR request to Argos yet? Just about to send one myself and has you are ahead of me on this particular comapny wondered if you had any response from them?

 

 

Cheers all for your help.

 

Yes maverick i have done the SAR to Argos, have just sent a letter stating they have not responded fully to this request.

 

They have sent the application form (dated Feb 04)posted earlier in this thread and terms & conditions dated May 06. So they can not even produce the terms & conditions from when the alledged account was opened.

 

Hope it helps!!

 

Johno

[johno23]

Ok I have sent CCA reuest and the SAR route and have still only recieved an application form and terms & conditions in a separate document that are from a later date than the date on the application form.

 

I have also recieved an invalid default notice as it does not state a date that the arrears need to be paid by.

 

All the above is in recent posts!!

 

I have now received a letter from Moorcroft which is enclosed below.

 

Can someone please give me some advice on what I should do next.

 

[N.P]

When did you receive this piece of crap?

[johno23]

Hi I received the letter from Moorcrap on the 14th July 09.

 

why?

[N.P]

Hi,

 

I`ve received one of these from Morecrap before.

 

I have a suitable response you can use, let me dig it out and I`ll paste it up later.

 

Ciao for now.

 

 

 

N.P

[johno23]

Cheers NP would be useful mate

 

thanks

[N.P]

Ok,

 

This is one I sent to JB DR regarding my Argos, I think it was.

 

Read through, and edit it to suit your situation, although it should be pretty accurate as it is.

 

 

 

 

Dear Empty heads,

 

Reference: xxxxxxxx.

 

 

Re: My request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

This account is in Dispute.

 

On 24 July 2007 I wrote to Moorcroft Debt Recovery Ltd requesting that Moorcroft Debt Recovery Ltd supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account. Some eight ( 8 ) months later, in response to this request, Fredrickson International Ltd supplied me with a mere application form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The cover letter was dated 6th March 2008.

 

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553

 

The prescribed terms referred to are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following:

 

1) Number of repayments;

2) Amount of repayments;

3) Frequency and timing of repayments;

4) Dates of repayments;

5) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states:

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

Further more, since the prescribed terms referred to above do not appear within the agreement your client has supplied, the agreement is rendered totally unenforceable, as the prescribed terms must be contained within the agreement and not a separate document, case law confirms this opinion

 

I refer you to the judgment of TUCKEY LJ in the case of Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299

 

”[11] Schedule 1 to the 1983 Regulations sets out the "information to be contained in documents embodying regulated

consumer credit agreements". Some of this information mirrors the terms prescribed by Schedule 6, but some does not. Contrasting the provisions of the two schedules the Judge said:

 

"33 In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest miss-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement. More detailed requirements, which

are designed to ensure that the debtor is made aware, so far as possible, of specified information (including information contained in the

minimum terms) are to be found in Schedule 1."

 

Therefore the prescribed terms cannot be contained within a separate document outside of the agreement

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

As it stands, the document supplied by your client is not a valid credit agreement nor is it enforceable by any court

 

 

What I Require

 

Firstly, I require all correspondence in writing from here on; any persistent attempts to contact me by phone will be reported to Trading Standards, the Financial ombudsman service and the Office of Fair Trading. In addition I may report your conduct to the Solicitors Regulation Authority and the Law Society

 

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that your clients do not hold a signed copy of a credit agreement containing the prescribed terms. Therefore the fact that they do not hold such document means that you cannot obtain an enforcement order in court. The case of Wilson-v-FCT sets this out as previously referred to above.

 

Should you believe that you have grounds to enforce this agreement, please provide me with a signed copy of the credit agreement that you would consider relying upon? Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

 

Since the agreement your clients have supplied as it stands is unenforceable, should you be unable to produce a compliant agreement it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for you to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages.

 

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days.

 

I trust this out lines the situation.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

PRINT - DO NOT SIGN!

 

 

 

 

Let me know if it`s ok for you.

 

 

 

N.P

[johno23]

hi all

 

I have not posted on this thread for over two months as i have basically it has gone quiet.

 

However after checking my credit file, I have been registered default after only two missed payments.

 

Ok the account is in dispute so they should not of placed any adverse history any way, never mind a default, but after two missed payments seems quick.

 

A few questions:-

 

1) is there a time frame of how many missed payment months their should be before a default is registered.

 

2) do i now wait until the account is sold and passed on before I go at them for no cca, invalid default notice etc.

 

3) as i have a default on my credit file does this mean the account has been terminated, as i have received no termination notice.

 

4) would it be wise to send a S10 notice now to stop processing my data.

 

many thanks

[haggis1984]

This might interest you: http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/detailed_specialist_guides/default_tgn_version_v3%20%20doc.pdf

 

Section 11 states that defaults shouldnt be issued before 3 months of missed payments.

[N.P]

This might interest you: http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/detailed_specialist_guides/default_tgn_version_v3%20%20doc.pdf

 

Section 11 states that defaults shouldnt be issued before 3 months of missed payments.

 

 

Interesting, Haggis, I`ll have to check my own default dates.