Received two CCAs, are they enforcable?

[Coffeetime]

Hello this is my first post, hope im in the correct area.

 

Ive come over here from MSE forums.

 

Ive received two CCAs from the same debt collector both credit cards & both from MBNA.

 

The first two scans are for the first account & are on one sheet, back to back.

 

Could anyone please advise if they are enforceable.

 

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This is what they have sent for the second account.

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Any help & advise on these is greatly appreciated

[angel_1]

hiya and welcome to cag,,,

 

im sure others will come along and give you lots of advice too

 

for now will post you to other threads to have a read for yourself

 

im now subbed to this thread and will alert others who have mbna problems to come and have a look

 

take care for now angel x;)

 

pls read the below threads

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/172769-mbna-agreement-now-threat.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/184041-all-mbna-caggers-fight.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/184802-discussion-enforceability-agreements.html

Edited March 12, 2009 by angel_1

[citizenB]

Ok, the first one (back n front) is a joke. It is a mailer application form and the bit at the bottom of the address has obviously been scanned on to make you believe it was on the original.

 

The chances of any sane person returning a document that contained their personal information with that information on the bottom of the form being on the OUTSIDE is beyond belief.

 

The 2nd one I cant really read, although it looks very similar to others that have been posted on the forum. I wouldnt like to offer an opinion on it.

[guzzleguts]

Hi Cf

 

I have exactly the same as your 1st one its mailer application, and the key financial information wouldnt be on the outside of an envelope, so pasted on in my opinion. (unenforceable).

 

Sorry i cant read the second one.

 

GG

[guzzleguts]

CB beat me to it:)

[Coffeetime]

Many thanks for your replies, its so much appreciated.

 

The second one is exactly as they sent it, right underneath the address box i can read (with a magnifying glass) " we will choose you credit limit & tell you what it is"

 

I'll try & expand it in photo bucket.

 

Im i right in thinking that if they are choosing my credit limit then it wont be on this form & therefore unenforceable?

 

Thanks for the links Angel, off for some reading, best put the kettle on. : )

[AA99]

Hi coffeetime and welcome to CAG. Unfortunately, I have 3 accounts with MBNA and agree with what's been said on here so far.

 

Read, read, read, and then start your own thread so we can keep up to date along the way;)

[angel_1]

hello coffeetime

 

told you that others would come along:D

 

hiya to you all that posted many thanks,,,

 

hope you are feeling a bit better about things now too coffeetime?

 

we are really here all to help each other and the latest case did i post for you to read about pomfeyfaith, is a live case due in court very soon again

 

will link it here for you to read up

 

see link here now -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/151709-help.html

 

happy reading,,,catch up laters all angel x

[ANDREAMOUR]

HI COFFEETIME

ANGEL TOLD ME ABOUT YOU.

I HAVE A SIMILAR MBNA CCA

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/182732-my-cca-mbna-please.html

YOU MAY FIND MY THREAD OF SOME HELP

AND I WILL MAKE SURE I KEEP AN EYE ON YOUR CASE TO SEE YOUR PROGRESS..

[heliosfa]

HI COFFEETIME

ANGEL TOLD ME ABOUT YOU.

I HAVE A SIMILAR MBNA CCA

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/182732-my-cca-mbna-please.html

YOU MAY FIND MY THREAD OF SOME HELP

AND I WILL MAKE SURE I KEEP AN EYE ON YOUR CASE TO SEE YOUR PROGRESS..

 

 

eep, off with the Caps Lock please!!!

 

 

 

As for the OP, has anyone else noticed that the possibly pasted Ts&Cs on the back of the mailer are not quite square with the page? hint hint, nudge nudge

[ANDREAMOUR]

eep, off with the Caps Lock please!!!

 

 

 

 

lol sorry

its a bad habbit of mine..

[Coffeetime]

Thankyou all so much for the help & reading material.......

 

My eyes have gone square , (or does that happen from too much tv)

 

Im going to reply to the dca that what they have sent isnt good enough.

 

 

Apart from looking like a paste & copy

wrong heading

 

I just cannot read them.

 

See what the reply with.

 

Angel thank you so much for posting & show my post to others.

 

Hope your all having a great weekend :)

[guzzleguts]

Hi CF

I would make them aware it does not comply with Section 1 of The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, which also states that copies of documents must be legible.

 

And i wouldnt mention the cut and paste just yet, see what they send you in reply to this letter.

 

GG

[angel_1]

Hi CF

I would make them aware it does not comply with Section 1 of The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, which also states that copies of documents must be legible.

 

And i wouldnt mention the cut and paste just yet, see what they send you in reply to this letter.

 

GG

 

 

hiya ct

 

you are very welcome and im having a brill weekend

 

ive pasted below an extract from one of my disputed letters re legibilty

 

you can adapt for your own use

 

************************************

Trading Standards have confirmed the document previously supplied to me does NOT comply with section 60(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, as it is not legible as required under current Legislation:

 

Consumer Credit Regulations 1983 (SI1983/1557)

 

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

 

(1)The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the .

 

*************

laters all and keep positive angel x

[Coffeetime]

Hi CF

I would make them aware it does not comply with Section 1 of The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, which also states that copies of documents must be legible.

 

And i wouldnt mention the cut and paste just yet, see what they send you in reply to this letter.

 

GG

Yes GG i was only going to say about the documents being illedgeable,

 

just rereading my post i didnt make that very clear.

 

 

Thanks for the quote Angel, im just going to start my letter.

 

Ct.

[Coffeetime]

Couple of quick questions, the dca have sent out a new I&E form today, im not going to fill it in. Just send them my reply.

 

Am i right in doing so?

 

 

Q2, Another dca has today sent a letter informing me that

 

"unfortunately *****(dca) has not been able to provide you with the requested information within the relevant time period. We have worked hard...... blah blah original lender hasnt located it.......

 

Although we are dependent on the original lender for the information, the relevant time period has now expired. However we shall continue to request the information from the original lender................ We hope to receive the relevant information soon."

 

So looks like these cannot come up with a valid CCA, do i now resend my F&F that they refused at the beginning of the year?

 

 

Whats your thoughts on this one?

[citizenB]

MBNA are absolute stinkers to deal with. Was it to them or the DCA you made the offer of a F&F settlement ?.

 

You do need to be extremely careful when offering F&F.

 

a) you are almost certainly admitting that you owe them.

b) if that is the way you want to go, with an attempt to settle once and for all. Be aware of the pitfalls.

 

You must structure your letter to them carefully. Ensure that all YOU want is included, eg assurance that this will be a F&F and not a partial settlement that will enable them to sell a balance on to another DCA. That you want any adverse markers removed from your Credit Reference Files. You want a letter of acceptance, including your terms, signed by their legal department and not the tea lady, BEFORE you hand over the cheque/postal order. HTH

[angel_1]

hiya coffeetime

this is info i got from a couple of theads last year and now i cant remember who or where i got it but its useful for you to consider

 

thanks to all who did the postings,,,,must get my files in better order soon

 

 

****

 

 

Full and final options and offer given

 

No problem, that is what CAG is about. The silly question is the one you don't ask.

 

Tread carefully with any form of discounted offer from a banker, and especially Amex.

 

Many bankers throw out offers like confetti and, in many cases, they are not at all sincere. The vast majority are just blunt tricks to try and get people to Telephone them, the larger the discount, the more they hope people will knee jerk into picking up the Telephone.

 

You can see their logic: if someone is interested in Paying 20%-40% of the alleged Debt, if nothing else, it tells them they can and want to Pay 20%-40% of the alleged Debt. That is probably the whole purpose of the offer. It may, for example, make the Debt more sellable to a DCA, as they can say the Debtor has indicated a willingness and desire to Pay £x, thus making the Debt much more attractive when it goes up for tender or auction sale in DCA Land.

 

However, whilst some offers are a little more sincere, most of these real offers often carry a nasty little sting in the tail. These are the ones that can be called Short Settlements, i.e. they offer a lump sum discount, but neglect to point out they can still chase you for the balance.

 

What you need, assuming you have the funds available to pay any offer, is a binding Full and Final Offer, one that includes a written undertaking from the banker concerned that when you make the Payment, that is the end of the matter for good, no strings attached whatsoever. You'd be wise to include other specific clauses such as the removal of any adverse Data, along with an undertaking that they will desist from ever mentioning the alleged Account ever again, to anyone.

 

Get all of that in Writing before you Pay them a penny, and make sure the F&F Offer Letter is signed by a real banker, not one of the facsimile signatures and invented names you see on many banking letters. For example, one bank in particular seems to use a number of names that do not appear to relate to real people. Amex may do the same, so make sure any Signature is signed in ink, by hand, and by someone with the appropriate level of authority within their organisation.

 

I think you can now see that any offer has to be taken with a pinch of salt, and it may not mean very much. By that, I mean it may not be a reliable indicator of the strength or weakness of their position.

 

Indeed, 97 times out of 100, it's just a vehicle being used to convey other less palatable intentions.

 

I HAVE ADDED BELOW INFO FROM JOSIE8, WHICH IS FAB -

It is prudent legally to make the payment through a third party - If making a full & final settlement make the payment through a third party i.e. your mother etc so it will be binding and they can't come back. If you pay it yourself they can come back at any time as you can't give good consideration to a creditor by paying less than you owe.

 

It is good case law that you can not give good consiederation to the creditor for his promise to accept less than you owe by paying him less. Good consideration can be given by a third party for his promise as they don't owe the creditor any money and are therefore giving him something for his promise.

 

****************

 

laters angel x

[Coffeetime]

CB, both MBNA accounts are with a DCA.

 

F&Fs were done with the sample letter on the national debt line, & on a pro rota basis.

The offers were low & a starting point.

 

In total i have 4 accounts, 2 MBNA

1 with another DCA

1 still with OC

All 4 defaulted.

 

All 4 refused F&F. At the time i didnt know about CCA.

 

I have sent cca requests to the DCAs, the replies are above.

 

I have replied to them today with the help from here.

To the DCA that cant get hold off a CCA (or make 1 up, lol) i didnt mention about F&F i'll leave it all to them.

 

I await the replies.

 

 

Thank you all once again for the help, advice & just generally being there & understanding.

[Coffeetime]

Angel, if they ever accept a F&F it will be paid through a third party. The family member who is willing to help.

 

I had seen before about it being more legally binding to pay through a third party.

 

Its nice to see it confirmed.

 

Many thanks,

 

off to read some more now, just wish i could understand what it all means, some of its sinking in.

[guzzleguts]

Hi CT

 

Obviously its up to you which way you go from here, but IMO you have a good argument one cca is a mailer with the terms pasted on the back and another that is illegible, if you are going to offer a F&F i would make it clear you know they dont have all the correct documents.

 

Have you received any DN's and what were the credit limits on the mailer?

 

GG

[citizenB]

Angel, I believe that interesting post was from BRW orginally.

[angel_1]

hiya citizen

 

actually i think now i recall, i read a lot of his posts last year and was so eager to learn i just pasted a lot of what i read so i could keep track

 

so thanks again BRW,,,,know he has his own big battle on the boil at the moment

 

so im so glad its been of further use this year,,,thanks CB for confirming to me too

 

hey coffeetime,,,its about all learning and helping each other, always have the belief that there are some kind people in this mad world of ours,,, just that you dont expect to find them where you do find them,,,,but then that is wonderful in itself,,,,,be surprised and be thankful

 

laters all going around reading a bit more angel x