Can I cancel a mobile upgrade?

[zhangwb97]

The phones4u shop just sent me a mobile handset for upgrade. But I don't like the handset and am going to post it back, as the sales told that within 7 days I can return it. Today I called the customer service and I was told to wait them call me back since they are always busy. And they will call me within next 7 days!! Now I am just wondering if I can just post it back and cancel the upgrade with 3G? Thanks for your help.

[BankFodder]

Yes you can. Send it special delivery with an explanantory letter.

however, be prepared for trouble. because you have not followed their own procedures, they are likley to lose it, say they haven't received it, say that your return is invalid etc.

All of this will be nonsense but I am just warning you.

[zhangwb97]

Thanks for your reply. Just wondering if I can just bring it to a local store for cancellation or for a exchange? Really not willing to call them, always busy, takes me over 20min each time.

[buzby]

You may have a bigger problem. Contract upgrades HAVE NO cancellation period, only new contracts - so you probably will have a fight on your hands. You may be able to swap for a handset that better meets your needs (if they are understanding enough) but your liability for the service contract will remain, irrespective of the outcome of this.

 

There is no right of 'changing your mind' after the event - what BF mentions is fine for most other goods purchased, but when you hare contracted for mobile phone service, it isn't straightforward>

[zhangwb97]

Well, although I still do not understand why a upgraded contract can not be cancelled, it seems that I will have only one choice to swap my handset. The problem is that my old contract is with 3G and so is the new one. Can I ask Phones4u to change to another network such as T-mobile?

[buzby]

The reason WHY it cannot be cancelled is.... WHY enter into another contract if you've no intention of sticking with it? If a decision is made to get a mobile, then if you are unsure whether it will meet your needs, or you might not have adequate coverage, then the 14 days is seen as a useful bonus to consumers to assure them that if it isn't suitable, they can return the phone and end the contract.

 

For an 'upgrade' the customer already knows the network, what the coverage is like and is simply changing to a newer handset and getting a bit of a discount. There's no need for the 14 day waiver to be offered, as the customer is expected to know what they are getting.

 

When you say '3G', I assume you mean Hutchison 3...? As I noted earlier, if the handset isn't to your liking, they'll change it if it still is in a 'new' condition - they don't have to, so it is a fair deal since you've changed your mind.

 

This doesn't extend to switching networks, as your SIM (the thing you have the contract with) will carry on for the full term regardless. I have to ask, why didn't you simply terminate with Hutchison and go to T-Mobile in the first place? By doing this you would be a new connection, and you would have had 14 days to try it all out.

 

Contracts are there for a reason - and PAYG the excellent alternative if you don't want to be held to ransom by the networks.

[zhangwb97]

Thanks a lot Buzby, your reply does really help. I am a foreigner here and know little about the mobile service. As you said, I used to simply terminate the old contract and begin a new contract before, but this time I tried to upgrade it, not a good try I would say. And yes I agree that PAYG is a good option without too many troubles.

[tadg]

3UK's website states that: " .... to qualify for an upgrade, you’ll need to re-join 3 for at least 12 months. And if you’re happy to stay with us for 18 months, your offer may be even better."

 

This seems like a new contract. Buzby your expert view would be welcome on this issue where people seem to be entering into a new contract (sold at a distance) and the general right to cancel within 7 days. ?

[buzby]

No, the upgrade is covered by the SAME contract, it is simply that the minimum term is 'reset' because of the new handset supplied (or other inducement; lower monthly rental, free holiday or cinema tickets). This is why there is no requirement for them to offer any cancellation period.

[tadg]

Hi Buzby,

 

I would have thought that the distance selling regulations apply - on upgrade a customer is entering into a new contract and entitled to the rights afforded by the same (especially where someone changes mind prior to receipt or on receipt of a new phone for example).

[buzby]

(1) Distance selling benefits only attach to contracts entered into over the web, not those where a consumer negotiates a deal across a shop counter. (2) It will only ever be a 'new' contract if the customer has a new account number allocated. With upgrades, it doesn't change (or it may have a suffix added). I can't speak for all networks as each will have different criteria, but it is rare for an upgrade user to be credit checked in the same way as a new customer taking out a fresh contract.

 

It is also worth remembering that even though the original contract may have had older T&C's, a contract that rolls over to an upgrade will always have the latest T&Cs that prevail, so it might be argued it IS a new contract, but not under contract law. The customer would have to give due notice of termination and have his service ceased. Since this doesn't happen, an upgrader has no rights of termination under the 14 day 'rule, but WILL benefit from SOGA protection which will restart from the date the new handset is first used.

[OrangePrimate]

As the OP was SENT the phone by Ph4u it must have been a telephone or web sale.

 

Distance selling rules apply. if the customer is rejecting the PHONE, then they have the right to reject the GOODS within 7 days, this then cancels the upgrade and new contract leaving the customer the choice to chose another phone, starting a new contract, cancel completely or just wait until another phone comes along that takes their fancy.

 

Zhangwb97, as Bankfodder says, send the phone and everything that came with it back to PH4U (keeping the tracking ref number) make sure yoy let the Network know of your actions and they will confirm which sim you need to keep. again as bankfodder says it may not be easy, but as long as you post the equipment back within that 7 days and you have notified them (possibly email them the notification?) it shouldnt be that much of a problem. try 3 for doing the upgrade direct with them as you may well get a better deal than doing it with a 3rd party company.

good luck!

[buzby]

Nope. How the item is delivered is immaterial. If the process of obtaining the item involves visiting commercial premises to place the order and it was then posted to me, DSR would not apply.

 

An example - to your way of thinking, I could go into the Orange shop in Bishop's gate and sign a contract for a new handset. There's none in stock, but the assistant promised to have the one in the colour I want sent out the second it arrives in the shop. Once it arrives, I can use the DSR to weasel out of the contract?

 

Afraid not.

 

And as this is an upgrade to an existing contract, there is no hope of using the DSR (even if it DID apply) as the pre-existing service contract trumps it (Contract Law) trumps it.

[tadg]

Hi Buzby,

 

My original post was in relation to the upgrade being made by phone. On taking out an 'upgrade' a customer enters into a new 12/18 month contract (or longer depending on the operator) ..

 

I am still at a loss to see why the DSR does not apply in relation to the right to cancel the contract. Sorry

[zhangwb97]

Yes the upgrade is made by phone. When I first called Phones4u it was just 2 days after the receipt of the handset. At first, I said that I would like to swap the handset and was told to wait them call me back within 7days, and then I said I would like to cancel the upgrade. The advisor did not say that I have no right to cancel but said that I need to ring another department. It has now passed 7 days and I am not sure if I can still ask for a swap, although they gave me a ref. number to prove that I had requested a swap within 7 days.

[buzby]

As I noted earlier in the case of Contract (not pre-pay) mobile phones, there will be no DSR protection in the terms expected. The PHONE itself could be returned, but this would not affect the SIM (on which the contrct is based). The monthly amount due for network service would remain a contract liability, and fully enforceable.

[OrangePrimate]

As I noted earlier in the case of Contract (not pre-pay) mobile phones, there will be no DSR protection in the terms expected. The PHONE itself could be returned, but this would not affect the SIM (on which the contrct is based). The monthly amount due for network service would remain a contract liability, and fully enforceable.

Sorry Buzby, on this one you are incorrect. the handset is subject the the normal distance selling regs, in rejecting those goods as unsuitable or unwanted the 'upgrade' is being rejected also then any terms that accompany it so then cancels the NEW contract.

 

the previous contract does not apply, an upgrade is not an extension of a previous contract it is a brand new contract and often subject to different talk plans, costs, incentives and terms/conditions than the previous one.

 

As long as the OP contacted the supplier within the 7 days period they will be able to return the equipment and cancel the new contract. Would again suggest that is sent back as a matter of urgency with a covering note of account number etc and include the code given when first contacted.

[buzby]

I think you'd better check with your superiors, as what you describe would - ultimately, leave Orange with a golden loophole to allow any upgrader to reject their handset and walk away from an otherwise valid contract.

 

Add to this, I have (with Orange) upgraded my mobile 8 times since Orange commenced operations in 1994 (around the same time they changed their trading name from Microtel to Orange. I only ever signed a contract once - and was allocated a five digit contract number commencing 00, so I was one of the first thousand or so to join the network.

 

No other contract was provided, and my account number remained exactly the same after each and every upgrade until I finally left them in 2008 after nearly 15 years as a customer.

 

You seem to make the common mistake that a contract has something to do with 'talk plans, costs and incentives. Wrong again - you work for Orange, have you actually READ a contract? None of the things you mentioned are mentioned as there is no need to. Additionally, terms and conditions are amended 'on the fly' by giving due notice to the customer.

 

I'll repeat - there is no RIGHT to a contract cancellation with an upgrade, there are circumstances where it MAY be allowed, but if a customer could cancel - following your logic, by claiming the DSR 'right', then why on earth would anyone purchase a handset in an Orange shop - where DSR would not apply? They're even opening more stores - so if you wish to continue asserting DSR trumps a legally binding contract, evidence from at least a few people who have successfully done so over the last 14 years should be too hard to find surely?

 

You might be able to reject a phone, but not the SIM, and your liability for ongoing service.

[OrangePrimate]

I think you'd better check with your superiors, as what you describe would - ultimately, leave Orange with a golden loophole to allow any upgrader to reject their handset and walk away from an otherwise valid contract.

 

Certainly dont need to check with any superiors, have been doing this numerous times a day for many years. It is not a golden loophole, it is a consumer right. if the customer is not happy with the equipment sent to them they have the option to send it back and try out another type of phone. majority do this until they find one they are happy with, a very small minority will decide to leave and go with another network that supplies a particular model of phone that they are after.

 

Add to this, I have (with Orange) upgraded my mobile 8 times since Orange commenced operations in 1994 (around the same time they changed their trading name from Microtel to Orange. I only ever signed a contract once - and was allocated a five digit contract number commencing 00, so I was one of the first thousand or so to join the network.

 

No other contract was provided, and my account number remained exactly the same after each and every upgrade until I finally left them in 2008 after nearly 15 years as a customer.

and....? fail to see the relevance. as stated in previous posts, an upgrade is an upgrade in the hardware, the actual phone. the CONTRACT is brand new and starts a new term of 12 or 18 mnths or however long is set, this is often with but not dependent on, changes to talkplans, offers and incentives etc. it is not a continuation of a previous contract. continued usage of the new equipment and use of the service/minutes/talplan provided is classed as acceptance of the new contractual terms given verbally at the time of the upgrade. these can be requested in writing at any time.

You seem to make the common mistake that a contract has something to do with 'talk plans, costs and incentives. Wrong again - you work for Orange, have you actually READ a contract? None of the things you mentioned are mentioned as there is no need to. Additionally, terms and conditions are amended 'on the fly' by giving due notice to the customer.

No common mistakes being made here! yes i have READ a contract, and can probably quote you majority of Orange contract word for word! certainly know which sections to quote for certain aspects of it!

I'll repeat - there is no RIGHT to a contract cancellation with an upgrade, there are circumstances where it MAY be allowed, but if a customer could cancel - following your logic, by claiming the DSR 'right', then why on earth would anyone purchase a handset in an Orange shop - where DSR would not apply? They're even opening more stores - so if you wish to continue asserting DSR trumps a legally binding contract, evidence from at least a few people who have successfully done so over the last 14 years should be too hard to find surely?

one of the reasons more upgrades are done directly by cutomer service over the phone and on the web than in the retail stores! in fact we promote that as a benefit of ordering on line or over the phone.

 

You might be able to reject a phone, but not the SIM, and your liability for ongoing service.

incorrect, (actually not very many customers actually register the sim that arrives with the new handset) it is not the SIM that is being rejected it is the equipment AND the contract terms.

 

you have a great deal of knowledge buzby, but occasionally you are NOT 100% correct, I am aware you will rarely admit that you are mistaken and will argue till the cows come home, but as much as i enjoy a lively debate the following should settle the matter once and for all.

 

apologies to mods if links not allowed but wanted copy/paste evidence and below quotes from a 'reliable' source and not something i could be accused is 'made up'! Also think this is relevant and useful information for any customers with the same query.

 

 

from Orange website:

 

http://help.orange.co.uk/orangeuk/com.instranet.InstraServlet?

 

What if I change my mind and no longer wish to upgrade?

 

When you buy in the Orange shop online, you can cancel your upgrade within seven days of delivery. Just call the Upgrade team on 0800 079 0169 to cancel your upgrade and arrange for the return of the phone.

 

 

 

The Office of Fair Trading: Cancellation periods

Cancellation periods

 

The regulations give consumers an unconditional right to cancel an order. This is to allow the consumer the opportunity to examine the goods or consider the nature of a service.

 

 

 

If a consumer cancels an order, written notice must be given to you by:

• goods – seven working days from the day after that on which the goods are received by the consumer;
  
• services – seven working days from the day after that on which the consumer agrees to go ahead with the contract.
  

If you fail to provide consumers with written confirmation of all the required information, then the cancellation periods can be extended up to a maximum of three months and seven working days. If the missing information is provided during this time, then the cancellation period ends seven working days beginning with the day after the full written confirmation is received by the consumer.

Where a contract is cancelled, the consumer must ensure that reasonable care is taken of any goods received and 'restore' them to you. This does not mean that they have to return them - unless you stipulate this in the contract - only that they make them available for you to collect.

You must refund the consumer's money as soon as possible and, at the latest, within 30 days of receiving the written notice of cancellation. The consumer may, at your discretion, be charged the direct cost of returning the goods, but you must tell them about this in the written information you give them.

If payment for the goods or services is under a related credit agreement, the consumer's cancellation notice also has the effect of cancelling the credit agreement.

[newjamie]

Just to add my experience after coming here and finding this post...

 

I upgraded 3 months before the end of my contract to an HTC Hero. I was signed up to another (different) contract for 18mths and I received the handset, which I wasn't happy with after 5 days use.

 

I phoned Orange upgrades on number below and was told that I can return the handset and it would cancel my new contract. It also does not affect my upgrade status and I can upgrade my phone at any point still

 

The only issue was that I had to still have my old SIM card, which I fortunately do, which they'll need to reactivate to keep my old contract/phone working.

 

Cheers

[buzby]

A good result - and good customer services too. It is always best to trey out the phone on their demo desk, than risking it at home and then being stuck with it!

[charltonjames]

HI,

 

Sorry to reopen an old thread, but i was hoping this point could be cleared up. It is clear that orange allows you to cancel an upgrade if you are not happy with it. But i was wondering if this applies to orange contracts (upgrades) agreed via phones4u (made via the phone or net)?

 

Thank you for your time,

 

Regards

 

James