D/judge Made Wrong Decison What Now??

[Mydogsawestie]

Cheers Dad, sure Pat is glad to have that information too.

 

From the top of your head what is it I need for round 2 stage to get me on the right footing (am planning to check about the forum this weekend too) and will I need to get the transcript of the judgement hearing for the round 2 appeal etc... ?

[Docman]

Hi MDAW

 

Well, we didn't expect to get the judge to allow an appeal or permission to appeal, so we can now press on.

 

You should download a copy of the relevant rule about Appeals from PART 52 - APPEALS - Ministry of Justice . This is going to be your new bible!

 

The first document you need from the Court is the Order refusing permission to appeal and the judge's reasons for the refusal. The second document you will need to produce is a 'Suitable Record of the Judgment'. This is the judgment that was handed down BUT it must be signed by the judge. Check with the court office if your copy isn't signed.

 

Where you only have the bare Order from the Court, you have to get the transcript of the hearing to explain how the court came to its decision. However, where you have a written judgment of the court as you have, you only need a transcript IF you need to rely on something that was said in the hearing as evidence. Only you will know, but I'm don't think you wil need to rely on evidence at the hearing. You don't need a transcript for the Permission application.

 

You may also find the attached useful. http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/204_0709_e.pdf

 

For now though, I suggest you have a break this weekend and put this case to one side. Go and recharge your batteries.

[cymruambyth]

Post 387 on my thread is by BRW and explains everything http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/190057-oh-bls-ltsb-20.html. Good luck

[Docman]

Very useful post cymruambyth, BRW has set out the procedue in plain English. However, as there is a written judgment handed down, a transcript isn't necessary for the permission application. I agree it might be usfeul later at the appeal stage but in this case, obtaining the transcript isn't a bar on submitting an application for permission to appeal.

[sunflower99]

HI Mydogaswestie

So sorry to hear the news but as every one says no big surprise and was to be expected ! That present judge not likely to back down and admit he made a mistake at this stage! But you will now be able to go for a appeal and countinue to get lots of help from the lovely caggers who been helping you up to this stage ! hope you can give then grief second time

[Mydogsawestie]

Hi MDAW

The first document you need from the Court is the Order refusing permission to appeal and the judge's reasons for the refusal. The second document you will need to produce is a 'Suitable Record of the Judgment'. This is the judgment that was handed down BUT it must be signed by the judge. Check with the court office if your copy isn't signed.

 

You may also find the attached useful. http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/204_0709_e.pdf

 

For now though, I suggest you have a break this weekend and put this case to one side. Go and recharge your batteries.

 

Thanks Docman.....I have the first document then which is the hard to read copy of the N460 that I hung around & waited for from the usher afterwards....glad I did after seeing how long other caggers had waited for theres. http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt204/mummywith2kids/N460.jpg

 

My copy judgement is what I uploaded on posting #294 (so far so good:-))

 

Very useful post cymruambyth, BRW has set out the procedue in plain English. However, as there is a written judgment handed down, a transcript isn't necessary for the permission application. I agree it might be usfeul later at the appeal stage but in this case, obtaining the transcript isn't a bar on submitting an application for permission to appeal.

 

Thanks cymruambyth for the info posted. As per the transcript Docman, I am pleased to know I dont need a transcript then at this stage so dont have to find the money from somewhere ... having just looked at the excellent link you gave me http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/204_0709_e.pdf it states at 4.1(f) to have the transcript though. When I read point 6 in relation to this, at point 6.10 it says the transcript is not necessary eg if the judge has given you permission to appeal.

 

As he didn't in my case & as I have a copy of the judgement in writing, this appeal wont get dismissed will it in my failure to supply it (re:4) in with my bundle .... Hope you dont mind me querying it....I seem to be back on that roundabout again y'see although coming round to the idea of taking you up on that thought of having a deserved break from all of this this weekend.

[Mydogsawestie]

HI Mydogaswestie

So sorry to hear the news but as every one says no big surprise and was to be expected ! That present judge not likely to back down and admit he made a mistake at this stage! But you will now be able to go for a appeal and countinue to get lots of help from the lovely caggers who been helping you up to this stage ! hope you can give then grief second time

Thanks sunflower99 ..looks like its now going to be a long one.

[humbleman]

since the N460 is illegible,could that make that refusal to appeal null:lol:

 

On a more serious note is there a doctor in the house that could translate this for us.

[seriously fed up]

.SFU what you said about Maladministration as Humbleman just pointed out shouldnt this be something to add to the pot too?

 

Re this, I think I would be inclined to keep the two things - the judgement and the maladministration - separate. You are getting lots of advice about how to put an appeal with, and with a good chance of success. But that is about his failure to interpret the law properly. That I suppose is a chance we all take whenever we get involved with any branch of law - its why there is an appeal system! But to take ALL that time to bring forward a judgement just seems to be ridiculous, and I would look to see who you should (or could) complain to - maybe inquire at CAB, but make clear in this case its the manner in which the matter was handled that you are complaining about and not the decision. I might even think about writing to my MP. I dont think it will do you any good (though it might do something to make you feel better?) but it might help someone else. Doesnt it say somewhere that a system of justice should be certain, but also speedy.

[Mydogsawestie]

Thanks for your comments SFU, I wonder what the DJ would have had to say for himself if I'd brought that up in front of him, (food for thought eh!!!) and would have been down on the record!

 

Humbleman.....A good point raised....I would hope it wouldnt become null & void!!!!

 

Heres what I can decipher from it so far...........

 

Handing down of judgement following hearing on 13/07/09

that **** **** C's application for Summary Judgement

 

Application successful. Judgement for C with? costs to be paid by D

 

Discretion exercised on? the ***** of findings as to **** made,

having considered the evidence.

 

D's application for leave **** ** her ***** that the judges finding were incorrect. She seeks to revisit matters aired & determined on the day.

[dad]

My read of N460:

 

Thanks for your comments SFU, I wonder what the DJ would have had to say for himself if I'd brought that up in front of him, (food for thought eh!!!) and would have been down on the record!

 

Humbleman.....A good point raised....I would hope it wouldnt become null & void!!!!

 

Heres what I can decipher from it so far...........

 

Handing down of judgement following hearing on 13/07/09

that hearing being C's application for Summary Judgement

 

Application successful. Judgement for C with? costs to be paid by D

 

Discretion exercised on? the basis of findings as to fact made,

having considered the evidence.

 

D's application for leave based on her belief that the judges finding were incorrect. She seeks to revisit matters aired & determined on the day.

 

On this basis you appear to have another ground of appeal:

 

3. The judge conducted a 'mini-trial' at a summary judgment hearing where there existed conflicts of fact on relevant issues. This was a serious error of procedure and is an appeal under CPR 52.11 (3)(b)

[Docman]

MDAW

 

I agree with dad as to the deciphering the judge's scrawl. He obviously went to some public school. If he had gone to a state school or a 'grammar' school 20 or 30 years ago, he would have at least have been able to write.

 

OK, less of my obvious hate of public schools and onto the appeal..

 

It seems to me you have procedural grounds for appeal, as dad has pointed out above. This is a summary application. If the matter isn't obvious from the application, then there should be a trial.

 

Then you neeed to look at the case and statute law. Big problem here for the judge is that he states he exercised discretion. The Act and case law are both quite clear. The court has no discretion on agreements entreed into pre April 2007.

 

I beleive you have to put together a 'skeleton' argument stating why you should be allowed an appeal. I'll have a bash at one tomorrow when I'm in my office.

[Mydogsawestie]

Thank you Dad & Docman for your continued advice & support....I shall wait on your skeleton Docman, it will help me enormously. In the meantime from looking at my new "bible" I see I have 14 days to get my appellants notice in (N161)

 

The transcript question I raised as per below still confuses me???

 

Thanks cymruambyth for the info posted. As per the transcript Docman, I am pleased to know I dont need a transcript then at this stage so dont have to find the money from somewhere ... having just looked at the excellent link you gave me http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/204_0709_e.pdf it states at 4.1(f) to have the transcript though. When I read point 6 in relation to this, at point 6.10 it says the transcript is not necessary eg if the judge has given you permission to appeal.

 

As he didn't in my case & as I have a copy of the judgement in writing, this appeal wont get dismissed will it in my failure to supply it (re:4) in with my bundle .... Hope you dont mind me querying it....I seem to be back on that roundabout again y'see

 

Having looked at the N161 form where it states what to include in as my supporting evidence....I see the following written info ....

"a transcript or note of judgment, and in cases where permission to appeal was given by the lower court or is not required those parts of any transcript of evidence which are directly relevant to any question at issue on the appeal;"

This still makes me non the wiser....

 

As I got declined an appeal & had brought up reasons at my judgment hearing as to why I was appealing regarding his points raised in the judgement findings.... .(surprised he didnt shut me up!!!) Should I not be enclosing the transcript?

[dad]

MDAW,

 

The transcript question I raised as per below still confuses me???

 

When the N161 talks about a transcript, it means a transcript of the Judgment, which you already have in writing. The documents you need to submit with your N161 are:

 

1. The order (Which should come in the post).

2. The N460 (Which you have)

3. Transcript of the Judgment (Which you have in writing unlike most people who have a Judgment delivered aloud so have to get it transcribed).

4. The Appellant's notice.

5. Your grounds for appeal.

 

As you said above you can apply on the appellants notice for more time to submit your skeleton.

 

if in your skeleton you want to refer to particular exchanges in court, you may as part of your evidence want to get a transcript of the hearing or the court may order you to produce one when it has considered the papers.

 

The final thing to consider is if you need a stay on the order under appeal. In which case you have to ask in the appellants notice and provide evidence in support of the request for a stay. Somewhere there is a thread by Un1boy which discusses what is needed to be provided in the appellant's notice in support of an application for a stay.

 

Hope that makes things clearer.

 

Dad

[Mydogsawestie]

Thanks Dad I think I get it now & see what you & Docman mean now when you said I didnt need one.

 

Stay/Set Aside.........all terminology I had better get used to fast.....in the meantime I will brief myself up on the other threads suggested by yourself & other caggers esp now that I have been renamed from being a defendant to an "appellant"....thanks v much.....

[Mydogsawestie]

MDAW

 

I agree with dad as to the deciphering the judge's scrawl. He obviously went to some public school. If he had gone to a state school or a 'grammar' school 20 or 30 years ago, he would have at least have been able to write.

 

OK, less of my obvious hate of public schools and onto the appeal..

 

It seems to me you have procedural grounds for appeal, as dad has pointed out above. This is a summary application. If the matter isn't obvious from the application, then there should be a trial.

 

Then you neeed to look at the case and statute law. Big problem here for the judge is that he states he exercised discretion. The Act and case law are both quite clear. The court has no discretion on agreements entreed into pre April 2007.

 

I beleive you have to put together a 'skeleton' argument stating why you should be allowed an appeal. I'll have a bash at one tomorrow when I'm in my office.

 

 

Hi Docman...have been spending time reading around the forums the last couple of evenings to get some ideas on putting all this together...have seen excellent postings on shakespeare62 threads on the layouts that he/she has done and wondered whether I could use some of these for starters...?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/191784-shakespeare62-nastybank-12.html#post2596735

 

Did you get chance to have a stab at a skeleton for me?

 

Dad....had a look around some of un1boys threads, as there were 49 threads I wasnt sure from the titles which one suited in particular....I did dip in quite a few...I dont suppose you can remember which one in particular do you?

 

thanks

[Mydogsawestie]

Question ....as an appeal is 14/21 days to put my next lot of paperwork together, next Thurs would be 14 days from my court hearing (28th Jan) of the handing down of judgement. I have still not had the courts Order or anything through from Restons yet tho..so wondering when would my appeal day notice begin from.....does anybody know? :idea:

[bazaar]

phone the court and ask them, because you want to appeal urgently, that'll give the ole judge a kick in the pants too

[dad]

Dad....had a look around some of un1boys threads, as there were 49 threads I wasnt sure from the titles which one suited in particular....I did dip in quite a few...I dont suppose you can remember which one in particular do you?

 

I was referring to this (and following posts):

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/102075-un1boy-n1-issued-breach-32.html#post1701187

[Mydogsawestie]

phone the court and ask them, because you want to appeal urgently, that'll give the ole judge a kick in the pants too

 

Thanks for the prompt bazaar, rang the clerk today, & you guesses it, it hadnt been typed up yet, but he said he would see it was done today.

 

He asked if I had the N460 which I said I did. I told him I had the judgement notes already so wouldnt need the transcript, he told me in his experience the approved transcript is always better.

 

I dont want to pay out for something unless I do really need it....any more thoughts anyone about this...I am happy with what Dad & Docman said about not needing this as whats been judged from the court case is in writing already?:? ?

 

Is this just a way of getting more money out of LIP's :?::?:

 

I was referring to this (and following posts):

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/102075-un1boy-n1-issued-breach-32.html#post1701187

 

Thanks Dad, will have a wander deeply into this post too....hope to have something put together ready for assistance on it all by the end of the weekend.........by that time the order from the court should have arrived to.

[mandyjayne]

Hi westie....

 

just dropped in to post this for you http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/179069-stebiz-cabot-appeal.html#post1932365

 

It was on my favorites and its worth a read for you i think as its pretty similar (sorry if you already have found it and read!)

 

Glad your pushing on with lots of the "finest" helpers!!

 

all the best

 

MJ;)

[Mydogsawestie]

Thanks MJ always glad to read threads like this in relation to wrong doings, it keeps us all determined when an unjust like ours has been done and gets the right result it should have had in the end.

[Mydogsawestie]

Docman/Dad...anyone please - I have been hard at work putting together my appeal skeleton & my N161 these last few evenings that I hope you can input with what to add or delete.

 

I have extracted alot of the Skeleton details from Shakespeare62's layout that has greatly assisted me ....having analysed it at great length I am unsure if some of the legislation will apply to me though as with a few other bits I have highlighted in red. Really am trying my best

 

Could experienced eyes lend me a hand in this please & see if they can pick up anything else at a glance that may not be relevant either :idea::idea::idea:

 

N161 is this information ok ?.....are the boxes ticked correct etc..comments advice welcome.....please

 

Have attached the judgement notes again, my post #294 details the faults re this (and my amended defence is here too, which this family DJ did not examine properly!).

 

DO STOP BY & POST IF YOU CAN HELP ME, I REALLY DO NEED SOME HELP IN FINALISING IT ALL....ANY CONTRIBUTIONS IN THE MEANTIME WITH CHOPPING & CHANGING WHATS BEEN DONE SO FAR WOULD BE APPRECIATED........

 

thank you.......

N161 Appellant MDAW.pdf

Judgement.pdf

Appellent Skeleton MDAW.doc

Appellant Grounds for Appeal MDAW.doc

Edited February 11, 2010 by Mydogsawestie
added in grounds for appeal doc

[supasnooper]

I'd throw in the Francovich Principle as well.... just to keep them on their toes.

 

It was mentioned by JonCris in Shakespeare's thead - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/191784-shakespeare62-nastybank-12.html#post2588754

[dad]

MDAW,

 

He asked if I had the N460 which I said I did. I told him I had the judgement notes already so wouldnt need the transcript, he told me in his experience the approved transcript is always better.

 

Unfortunately, you have been talking at cross purposes. A 'note of a judgment' is prepared by a solicitor or barrister at a hearing for his client. What you have is an approved judgment.

 

HTH

 

Dad