babegem v Phoenix recoveries/HSBC

[babegem]

Don't let them get to you Babegem. You offered settlement, despite not even being given the information you needed. I suggest you now prepare for court. There are a few useful articles here to help you.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/51-guidance-notes.html

 

Easier said than done I'm sure not to worry about their threats, but it seems to me they are getting very threatening and intimidating, and the judge should be made aware of this. The diary is a good idea, and I suggest you make 3 copies of it, one each for you, the judge and HSBC. Also copies of all the correspondence you have and information you can use in your argument. Put it in date order, with page numbers and an index so you can easily find what you want in court, and refer the judge to it if necessary.

 

According to the email you sent me I think you'll be getting a case summary and draft directions in the next couple of days. If you don't get it, remind the sols about what the court order says, as it will give you a much clearer idea of what they think they have up their sleeve. I think it might be worth asking them if they have any other documents they intend relying on in court, because as a litigant in person you would like as much time as possible to examine them before meeting them in court.

 

Make a list of all the points you want to make, and the questions you need to ask HSBC. Show them you mean business and won't be easily intimidated.

 

The more prepared you are, the more confidence you'll have in court.

 

It always sounds like more sense when someone else says it like it is. I offered to settle, and have been paying token payments on the understanding they would prove the amount owed. I also notice that the amount they have claimed has not changed in two years despite my monthly token payments. I had overlooked this before, should I make this another ote of their errors as an example of the fats not being correct?

 

I have almost finished the diary, however recognise there are a few letters astray which I will look into at the weekend. I will ake copies definitely as you advise, and serve / issue these to be used.

 

I have just received the case summary, and I have now got their draft directions, despite theyshould have been with me in with the AQ in January. I have pointed this out to their sols in email over the last few days. The emails have gone back and forth and they have sugested nothing to try to settle or back off etc. I made reference to the laws of difficulty enforcing a disputeddebt, them breaking the oft and csa guidelines etc. Should I give copy of the emails to court so they can see my efforts and reasoning (and how manpulative/twisted the claimant has been)??

 

They have made it obvious now that they plan to change their POC and have suddenly quoted the correct bank account number and that there is loan thrown in there too. Their smmary is also rather insinuating and again manipulative/'cleverly' written, but simply shows they are again confusing matters and me.

 

NB: I imagine the conversation will be: judge - why are we here today?

claimant: she owes £**** debt and denies it althouht she admits it and wont pay.

me: I will pay, happily, in installments I can actually afford, once the actual amount has been proven to me, which I have asked for on (lets say) 10 occaisions, and also further disputed when being pressured into paying it back without.

Judge: so (to claimant) why havent you provided this?

claimant: she has admitted it, at least in part.

Judge: so why havent you proven that part? And what is the part disputed?

me/claimant: the dispute is over unfair and refuted charges as is being dealth with in High courts.

Judge: SO what are you and what have you done about it?

me: they havent investigated as they said they would, and the amounts are sill not proven to add up to £*** as for an overdraft.

 

Or- I can simply state- the claim was for an overdraft, which I have never had to this amount, nor had proof.

 

Do you think the judge will simply allow them to change the POC?

 

I will argue that they said they would freeze interest whilst investigating the dispute (which is referred to but can find all the letters!). And also that costs could have been saved by giving the sum, total SAR and proof in 2006/7 and therefore court costs and interest should be charged to me.Will also claim that have spent £1000 on legal costs that dont have, and these would alo have been avoided if they had laid cards bare and investigated as they said they would. What do you think to this?

 

I will be happy if the conclusion is that I owe say 60% of the total they claim, and I can pay in installments as per my income expenditure.

 

Do you think should add into my case how stressed I have been, how ill I have been (currently being assessed and under advisory for stress) and have had cancer and bereavement in this time to cope with as well as the hours I have spent researching and contacting them?

 

I just hope the judge says to them,'why didnt you just ive her proof'?

 

Sorry again for rambling, my nrves are coming out, I am so stressed. I just want it to be over.

 

I have guy from CAB coming with me to the hearing, might help with the nerves and to have some support.

 

Thank you so much once again...

 

:-|

[caro]

Sorry I wasn't about when you posted before. Definitely include copies of all correspondence including emails.

 

I'm not sure why you expect them to change the POC, but if they do you should have the opportunity to amend your defence, for which you should be given time. If they really were going to amend I think they'd have done it before doing the witness statement. If they do change the POC you must ask for 28 days to change your defence (if the judge allows the change at such a late date and doesn't adjourn anyway).

 

Draft directions can be submitted at any time, even taken to court for the judge to consider on the day, so I don't think you can use that.

 

Of course your illness and bereavement affect how difficult all this must be for you, but at the end of the day, the solicitor and judge will be concentrating on the legal issues. By all means mention the stress the intimidatory tactics have caused you. If you have a letter from your doctor or medical evidence to support this it certainly won't hurt, but you need to focus on the legal arguments.

 

If you don't understand anything in court, don't be afraid to ask for an explanation. It's part of the judges job to make sure that both parties understand what's going on.

 

You have my email addy if you want me to look at what's been sent to you, but I'm sure you know by now that I'm no expert. 2 heads are sometimes better than one though, and if you want me to I can try and seek other opinions (no promises).

[babegem]

do you know if there are any valid grounds for me asking the judge to not allow them to change the particulars of claim?

 

do you know if by me saying I admit to owing debts means that the claimant is then not obliged to produce the cca for the debts?

 

they have lumped together three accounts. Does this mean they have to show all three ccas' in order to enforce judgement?

 

how should i present the issues and can you give me an idea what these include?

 

I have a draft issues document that I can send if this helps.

[babegem]

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[babegem]

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[citizenB]

do you know if there are any valid grounds for me asking the judge to not allow them to change the particulars of claim?

 

do you know if by me saying I admit to owing debts means that the claimant is then not obliged to produce the cca for the debts?

 

they have lumped together three accounts. Does this mean they have to show all three ccas' in order to enforce judgement?

 

how should i present the issues and can you give me an idea what these include?

 

I have a draft issues document that I can send if this helps.

 

 

I dont think they can just AMEND the POC without permission from the court. As Caro has already said, IF they are allowed to do this then you will be able to amend your defence.

 

Not sure about your 2nd question re lumping the amounts together.

[caro]

I think you'll need to deal with each account seperately, unless they have common issues surrounding them.

 

Where has the draft issues document come from? Can you post it up so everyone can take a look and see what they can make of it please.

[babegem]

I think you'll need to deal with each account seperately, unless they have common issues surrounding them.

 

Where has the draft issues document come from? Can you post it up so everyone can take a look and see what they can make of it please.

 

 

Hi Caro,

 

Both parties were asked to narrow issues before the hearing, so I presented mine in bullet form to the claimant.

 

It seems from having looked over the 'copy' of the notice of assignment that this in fact is not a copy, as it is different and quotes a different wording and account reference. If this is all they have, and they have until 4pm tomorrow to file and serve whatever tehy seek to present in te hearing, I am hoping the judge will consider throwing out the claim as it is unenforceable. It doesnt quote the correct account or correspond to the POC.

 

I will aslo request they are not given to amend the POC at such a late date.

 

I have also been looking into potentially applying for time order if they wriggle out of things, as their refusal on the settlement was based on the time to pay it off, but an original letter of default (which has not ref on it!) from HSBC says shoudl court action happen that I should consider this option.

 

The claimant is also seeking to make me pay costs, despite them being limited on the POC, and I am refuting this too on the grounds the debt is unenforecable, the oft and csa guidelines were not followed and that they have had plenty of time to invesitgate the dispute and send disclosure therfore avoiding court.

 

I hav been feeling rather run down the last couple of days too, and having a rep from the CAB wil help I think...

 

I note also they have told me they have no copies of anything pre dating the date of supposed assignment.

 

Where do I stand with the CCA re the accounts? I have not been provided them, only page one of two for one of the accounts.

 

Lots of confusing information, I guess we will play the hearing by ear, but wonder also if their decision to send a representative to be there in person doesnt tell anything about their case? Why do this instead of the phone conference which was requested by tht court?

[babegem]

they say there are related issues to the accounts being lumped, but havent said what they are or proved them in any way.

[caro]

I really don't understand what the judge was thinking of allowing them to provide documents the day before. To be perfectly honest Babegem, unless you feel ready for the case when they provide the documents, I would suggest that you ask for an adjournment so that, as a litigant in person, you can have more time to understand the implications of the information you have, and can prepare for your hearing more fully.

[babegem]

Thanks again for the advice, always valuable. My hearing is tomorrow so I am nervous, but as prepared as I think I should be having never done this before..

 

I was still wondering though...

 

do you know if there are any valid grounds for me asking the judge to not allow them to change the particulars of claim?

 

do you know if by me saying I admit to owing debts means that the claimant is then not obliged to produce the cca for the debts?

 

they have lumped together three accounts. Does this mean they have to show all three ccas' in order to enforce judgement?

[caro]

If they change the particulars of claim then you have to be given the opportunity to defend yourself. In my honest opinion, they would not have come this far to change it at court. The judge would also need to know what they said, and to go to a hearing and ask to change the POC would be unthinkable when the judge will already have read up everything provided.

 

If the unthinkable happens you'd have every right to object, but I'm sure the judge would be objecting first for wasting his time and changing their case at a hearing.

 

Did you receive the documents that were meant to be submitted by 4 pm today?

 

You've done all you can now, so try and get a goods night rest so you'll be fresh as you can be for tomorrow.

[citizenB]

Good luck babegem:)

[babegem]

Hi guys, thank you for your support and well wishing.

 

So this is what happened today:

 

I arrived at court early, and instantly knew who was their representative (he looked very smug and arrogant). After a few minutes looking over the papers he had, he asked openly if i was present in the room, I acknowledged and he approached to introduce himself.

 

He then asked to have a word and started talking about two things;

'advising' that this is going to be very expensive and he feels the claimant has a very good case, and that he wants to settle 'given that I have admitted that I owe around £6500 of the debt/claim'.

 

We spoke and asked bearing in mind a settlement had been suggested but was not forthcoming, he wanted me to offer, I said we had offered and were waiting for counter offer to consider. He said it was pretty much £6500 given I admitted it. I then reminded him that the fact of whether the accounts I admitted to were in fact those assigned and which was part of the case and therefore the settlement, and he said lets go to the hearing.

 

We went in (I was very nervous!) sat down and the judge started. He asked if we had agreed directions and come up with an agreement, and adressed the claimaint first. He asked if this was a case related to bank charges, as he had dealt with them before. They said no, referred to my 'admission of the account in the defence' and then the judge asked me for comment. I said that categoricaly it was a case of bank charges, but moreso that the account claimed hadnt been shown what it was or what made up of, but that I suspected was of the bank charges. He noted that the claimant had had time to ascertain this.

 

Judge said that both directions were fairly similar apart from that of costs, and has allowed them to change their poc to include the correct account numbers to clarify what they are claiming as if part of the disclosure...

[babegem]

I am very worried now that if they get the POC right n their amendment, I dont have a leg to stand on and will then lose

 

 

... We commented on the banking code being broken by allocation and persuit of the debt which had been disputed, and again this was referred the disclusure somehow (I cant recall all the details now).

 

the claimants solicitors said I had admitted to the debt and quoted a letter out of context saying that I would be hapy to pay the remainder of the debt except for the bank charges. Judge asked me my thoughts on whether I admitted the debt: I said as per my defence and all letters I have always said I do owe HSBC money on three accounts, but that I couldnt see if this claim was those three accounts, and if it were then how they got to the balance, and then there were the bank charges on the current account.

 

I brought to judeges attention that I have tried to ask for this to be shown b4 bringing to court to save wasting his and everyone else's time and the money.

 

The costs which are claimed in the directions was also something mentioned, stating that the three seperate accounts would have been less than £5k each and may therefore have been relevant in not adding costs or the small claims... He looked surprised it was three accounts (but this may now be shown on the new claim info submitted with disclusure.)

 

Essentially we have been told to go and disclose, and the judeg said it will be at that point whether we can see or not that this is the same debt/s.

 

Although I will be allowed time to amend my defence as I have been honest about things, I think I may be buggered if it then matches what I have asked for all along. The judge made it clear that the losing party will pay costs.

 

He sent us away with agreement of their directions. Not taking into account mine (although he did comment on how detailed and lengthy they were), no reference was made to my request in there to whether it would be thrown out if they dont supply docs, or the time order I will request if its proven. The judge did say that if they cant come up with the supporting documents that show the accounts, the balances and the terms that allow the debts to be lumped together etc, that there then will be no case to answer.

 

We then pointed out the question of authenticity of the documents that I did get sent, that they didnt match although one was meant to be a copy of the other one! He basically said, all this will come out in disclosure.

 

He essentially said to finalise that it was clear we both wanted to account paid, and we should think about settling.

 

We thanked him and left. (their solicitor actually did a mini bow to him when we left!).

 

Their rep then asked again to speak to us, and vaguely discussed a way forward.

 

I said that would be great, and bearing in mind that time had been given to avoid the court, I would like to hear their proposals. He again mentioned the £6500 I had 'admitted to'. I said that was two years ago and since then its cost me on health and solicitor to prepare the defence. To cut a long story short, I then said if they added interest to my bank charge reduction to total around £2k deducted the £1k sols fee, and then allowed me time to pay they have a deal if they can show me its the right accounts.

 

He huffed and said that will come at disclosure. I dont think they will neg a settlement if they have to show the docs. He said he would put it to them, we briefly talked about considering that I paid the other account they held, and that I have had it very tough on health and them breaking codes adn guides, that he would refer this to them for a decision.

 

He made it obvious I had antagonised their internal legal guy by being bitty about the facts etc, and by our characters clashing, and that they will find a way to get the money out of me.

 

I reminded him they have my financial stats, and my rep reasoned bankruptcy wasnt logical. I said that I may not have a job if I continue to be so stressed and have to take time off work for courts etc as my boss is being overly sympathetic.

 

I said I was happy if it was feasible once proven that a time order to the account (minus my requests) would be ok, and that my boss was happy to be in contact 6 monthly to advise on any bonuses I may get to show income is honest. It was made clear I want it sorted out and tehy said they do too. They will be in touch after consideration.

 

I dont know what will happen now.

 

Sorry this is so long, but I think all the points are put across now.

 

PLEASE tell me your thoughts and ideas, as I now dont know what I have to do next... shall I post the directions that were agreed to?

[citizenB]

Yes, post the directions up babegem. Are there any timelines you have to adhere to ?

[caro]

Very well done Babegem. You have clearly made your points.

 

I can't help thinking that if they had the relevant documents to prove their case they'd have done it long ago. I think they hoped you'd crumble when their solicitor nabbed you to settle before the hearing, and in case you didn't they had to come up with a way of trying to buy some time.

 

As CB says, post the directions and let's see what's needed next.

[babegem]

Directions are:

 

The claimant be granted leave to amend the particulars of claim in the event that the same is required.

 

fast Track

 

Standard disclosure by two weeks

 

Request for inspection to be made by three weeks

 

Exchange of witness statements month later

 

Parties to then file pre trial check list

 

Date for court trial

 

Claimant will file their bundle between 3-7 days before the trial

 

Costs of case

 

 

Cant say that I understand at all what is required....

[babegem]

I havent had any communications as yet, dont know if or when I will get something or what I will get from the court or the claimant.

[fedupwithdebt2009]

Subbing

 

Sending my support through cyber space babegem!!

 

Seems Phoenix are going to be very busy!!!

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/183981-county-court-claim-help.html

[babegem]

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[babegem]

Caro, CitizenB do you have any thoughts on the directions? Do I need to supply anything? What documents shall I be expecting and to what extent to they have to be complete or partial?

 

Thanks

[citizenB]

babegem, I havent a clue. I have asked a more experienced site team member to pop in for you.

[babegem]

Thank you citizen B, I will wait to see what they say, who did you ask out of curiosity?

[Spamalot]

Subbing...me V Phoenix too.