dtjim v mbna

[dtjim]

Hello, I sent a request for my CCA agreement 2 months ago and they have not been able to provide it, does that mean that the debt is unenforcable? thanks for your help

[silverfox1961]

HI,

That is correct. No CCA= unenforcable debt UNTIL a valid one turns up (if ever)

 

fox

[dtjim]

What about using my cards in the meantime if they hav'nt put a stop on them? would it be OK?

[Ragtaggeorge]

No using the cards implies you accept the agreement. Judges call it unlawful enrichment if you are claiming the agreement is in dispute at the same time. So no payments in and none out. That includes charges refunds if you had a claim in for them and they credit your account or send a cheque - send back the cheque / authorise them to remove any credits to the account.

[dtjim]

Yes, of course, which would be fair really. I will destroy the credit card cheques I have been sent and not use the cards at all. Thanks for your wise words.

[Muffintop]

If you have a 2nd account though with mbna that isnt current in dispute and you havent requested your cca and continue to pay it and use it for the moment but possibly intend in the future to request a cca (thinking that they would have it and its enforceable) then that would be perfectly acceptable... wouldnt it ragtaggeorge... no intention to deceive or defraud and no current dispute in progress

[Ragtaggeorge]

Except if you are going the CCA route they are going to get wise to you very quickly...especially as it is the same company...would you give credit...anyway your decision based on your income, net worth, age etc, etc. There is no easy answer.

[Muffintop]

tnx they do tend to not know what the left hand is doing half the time.

[dtjim]

Hello, I have today receivied a letter from "AEGIS" based in Mumbai. They are chasing the debt now for MBNA. Does this mean that the debt has been sold? should I ask Aegis for a copy of the 1974 CCA? Or do I just ignore the letter and wait for the actual CCA from MBNA as requested on the 14th December 08?

[Muffintop]

Subscribe to Aegis CCA thread it will give you their experience with Co and MBNA, do a search on aegis at the top under search and it will come up then subscribe to it.

[Ragtaggeorge]

There are issues around is the account has been assigned correctly to the DCAgency so check those out. At the time you applied for the CCA agreement copy the account was with MBNA so by transfering they have commited an offence, check the dates.

Do you have proof of postage and/or delivery to MBNA. If so

 

Adapt and use this for RMA:-

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE - Account number: XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

 

I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to yourselves, as it is in dispute with the **original creditor/DCA** and has been since DATE.

Not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and Data Protection Act 1998

 

My last letter from **original creditor/DCA** was DATE and intimated that my complaint would be resolved on **DATE**. This obviously hasn’t happened.

 

As **original creditor/DCA** are now in default of my Consumer Credit Act request, OFT Collection Guidelines have breached and I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

 

As you are aware, while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default, enforcement action is NOT permitted and, under s127, this constitutes a complete defence at law.

 

I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to the **original creditor/DCA** for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as **New DCA** cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

 

If **New DCA** chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

 

I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter and look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully,

[dtjim]

Hi, I checked the dates, posted recorded on the 14th Nov 2008!! I sent the letter to Aegis in Mumbi although on their letter it states do not send any mail to this address - but it is the only address supplied by Aegis!!!!! Well it is on its way to India, International recorded. Cost me nearly a fiver for them to call of the dogs they were not allowed to send in the first place. Wondering if I should claim my money back from them as I did state in my first letter not to pass any of my infomation on to a 3rd party DCA (which they have done) and it has cost me to reply to them and they never got my 1974 CCA out to me. Perhaps £15 for the letter, plus the postage cost and my interest on that! Thanks for all your help.

[Ragtaggeorge]

Stop that!;¬)

You must allways write to the registered UK address.

By using the search feature on this site i have found some else who is having problems with Aegis.

Perhaps you should message them and swap stories.

See thread below: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/158657-aegis-mbna.html#post1697341

Here is another lead for you: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/173415-aegis-cca.html?highlight=Aegis#post1870981

 

Bon Chance

Edited January 10, 2009 by Ragtaggeorge

[citizenB]

Yes, of course, which would be fair really. I will destroy the credit card cheques I have been sent and not use the cards at all. Thanks for your wise words.

 

I doubt you will be able to use this account again, so I would suggest you either shred or cut it up in to very tiny pieces. Do not, under any circumstances return it to MBNA if they request you do so. One CAGer reports a friend lost his case in court because MBNA entered the card cut in two as evidence the account existed. !

 

Hello, I have today receivied a letter from "AEGIS" based in Mumbai. They are chasing the debt now for MBNA. Does this mean that the debt has been sold? should I ask Aegis for a copy of the 1974 CCA? Or do I just ignore the letter and wait for the actual CCA from MBNA as requested on the 14th December 08?

 

I see ragtaggeorge has already advised you shouldnt have replied to this company unless it provided a UK registered address.. It might be worth sending a copy of the letter to Trading Standards.

 

I am positive DCAs have to provide a UK registered address on their letter headings.

 

Another thing I would be wanting to know is, what kind of security measures do they have in place regarding your private data if they are using a company in Mumbai to write to you ?. Could be worth having a word with the Information Commissioners Office to see what they think.

[Muffintop]

I would just like to makea comment about cutting up the credit card and sending it back to MBNA and the implications this had on a court case.

 

I cant see this as how can you dispute the account ever existed? I didnt think this was a defense as this would be fraud and obtainin money under false pretences (will have to look up the exact offence, do have a copy of it) I am requesting my CCA but to clarify the terms and conditions and for me the rate of the money that I borrowed, I believe I borrowed my money on the card at 0% for life of any balance and Mbna have put interest on my card and therefore overthe years I have spent more on my card in interest and it was paid off a long time ago, I thought this was the stance that was being taken. How can we dispute the whole debt. I need to make sure the reasons I am disputing my debt is clear.... If a judge asks me if I spent the money on the card, if the card was issued to me how can I say no? but I can say that the terms I believe were that the card was 0% or I only ad a max credit limit of.... so how could i have ended up with £ amount...

 

Ragtag or one of you other wiser caggers pse advise me.

[citizenB]

I would just like to makea comment about cutting up the credit card and sending it back to MBNA and the implications this had on a court case.

 

I cant see this as how can you dispute the account ever existed? I didnt think this was a defense as this would be fraud and obtainin money under false pretences (will have to look up the exact offence, do have a copy of it) I am requesting my CCA but to clarify the terms and conditions and for me the rate of the money that I borrowed, I believe I borrowed my money on the card at 0% for life of any balance and Mbna have put interest on my card and therefore overthe years I have spent more on my card in interest and it was paid off a long time ago, I thought this was the stance that was being taken. How can we dispute the whole debt. I need to make sure the reasons I am disputing my debt is clear.... If a judge asks me if I spent the money on the card, if the card was issued to me how can I say no? but I can say that the terms I believe were that the card was 0% or I only ad a max credit limit of.... so how could i have ended up with £ amount...

 

Ragtag or one of you other wiser caggers pse advise me.

 

Muffintop, You have to explain to the DJ that you're not disputing the fact that you have used the money (if asked) you are disputing the creditor's rights to enforce the debt under section 127 (3).

but would add that you have also been denied the statutory protections and rights which should have been afforded to you under a compliant agreement.

 

And here is the link that should persuade you not to cut up and return your card to a company.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/179236-tragic-case-judgement-because.html#post1934007

Edited February 2, 2009 by citizenB

[Muffintop]

thanks Citz B.

Im just concerned how a judge will view my claim when I did take out the card, have used it but am disputing it beccause they havent complied with my statutory rights. will the dj see me as a person trying to get out of paying back the money and give me a hard time? will check out your info on cutting up card.

[Muffintop]

For you following your pm. adapt to use .. courtesy of site team

Edit to suit and send recorded

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Dear Sirs,

 

I write in response to your letter dated XXXXX

 

Your letter is incorrect and frivolous, you are fully aware of legally valid reasons why no payment has been made on this account, namely that the agreement which underpins this account has not been supplied despite a perfectly valid request and furthermore, it is suggested that notwithstanding the failure to supply a copy, the agreement itself is improperly executed, devoid of all prescribed terms and deficient in respect of detail relating to APR, total charge for credit and statements of rights ,remedies and protections as required by schedules 1,2 and 6 Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983

 

Therefore the agreement as outlined in section 65 (1) Consumer Credit Act must be laid before the court to be granted an enforcement order before any further action can be taken

 

It is my view that the court would not grant such an order due to the deficiencies that I have outlined within the agreement, further more this has already been raised with Barclaycard yet I note they have still assigned the account over to yourselves and the absence of any documents disproving my points itself speaks volumes

 

Therefore, I would indeed welcome the opportunity to place this before the court. furthermore should you proceed with the threats to issue a court claim I will make an immediate application to have it set aside for the grounds outlined above, also I shall refer the judge to this letter when the matter of costs falls due.

 

Please also note that I consider your behaviour in this matter as pure harrassment, I find it hard to believe that I have to quote the Office Of Fair Trading's guidelines on debt collection which state - Section 2.6 -

h. ignoring and

/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are

disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

As you represent banks, who regularly make charges and in light of the fact that I have taken time out to carry out research, I have charged you £30 which I will add to my legal costs.

 

Also please consider this a formal complaint, If I do not receive your official complaints procedures within 14 days, I will have no option but to make your behaviour known to the Office Of Fair Trading and the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

As regards to my request for a copy of my agreement, I quote from correspondence from the Office Of Fair Trading.

 

It need not be exact on immaterial points,

but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have

difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody

would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs

to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot

otherwise.

 

In the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to

further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it is as unfair practice under

section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or

provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed

 

I trust this outlines my position clearly enough for you

[Muffintop]

why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

 

read up on this thread too re cpr requests your next move me thinks

[dtjim]

HELP HELP. I have received a letter from MBNA today stating

Inportant Default Notification.

 

You are in breach of the agreed terms and conditions and a decision has been made to place a restriction on your account. This means that your card and your credit card cheques cannot be used. If you have regular transactions blah blan use alternative method of payment.

 

ITS NOT TOO LATE TO PREVENT THE TERMINATION OF YOUR AGREEMENT

 

Call now to make payment to stop the default being registered against yoiu.

 

 

****Does this mean that they will put a dreaded default on my credit file?

***Does this mean this has already been done

 

** I have not had a cca from them signed its around 10 years old this card

 

Iv not paid them since requesting my cca. is this a threat and should I continue ..... really worried.

[angel_1]

hiya dtjim

 

i understand your worries and concerns, but take a step back and re read the letter, i bet there are a lot of May do this and MAy do that type of sentences

 

i have today been told one of my accs been sold, yet ive not had the correct paperwork to confirm this yet,

 

Mbna ive found give at least 7 months or so before they actually default you, which is what they did to me, but hey ho, the wording even on the default notice refers to something im not happy is correct so hoping its a defective default - im really hoping they are selling on my debt so its officially a terminated agreement. I then understand that affords the creditor with LESS rights to the amount to be paid only to the arrears. (let me be clear on this only because of the defective default notice and what ive been told here on the forum)

 

what im trying to say in my mad way is that you will learn pretty fast they are windbags in lots of ways, ive totally stopped talking to them, complianed about the calls, etc, i will be complaining to fos now just so that i keep the axle moving so to speak, not paid them since last year about oct of course they add on charges and interest, and they only sent me an unclear cca which they say is clear and correct,

 

ive rejected that and they have rejected me, but by complaining to fos, it costs mbna about 450.00 for fos to investigate my complaint, im only doing this as trading standards told me to do this first, im viewing this is my fast track to learning everything i need to know for eventual court action:D

 

keeps me away from the tv so my hubby tells me,,,,lol

 

i would suggest to learn fast and see others journeys to take a bit of time and subscribe to all the mbna threads you can see that are similar to your problem and also i wanted to add, would a default really damage your credit file if you continued to withhold payment? ie your job etc

 

also time to send a sar request at least this is again evidence as ive done and got similar copies of my cca again unreadable etc

 

im thinking of the cpr route once fos is sent just to be another thorn in their side before they kick me out of the door

 

keep positive someone here said its all like a game of chess,,,,your turn, then their turn,,,etc

 

laters angel x8)

[Muffintop]

Hey thankyou so much really need the support right now. my job doesnt depend on whether I pay or not... if I was to pay a small amount I think called a token payment ie a 1.00 would that mean they couldnt default me as I had made a payment? maybe this is the way to go until they can produce a valid cca.. How and when and why can I complain to the FOS? will they take a complaint from me that I havent received my cca?

 

I have send a sar from advice from oh. pse stay with me need you guys.

Oh by the way I read tonight that they cannot send a default notice unless it is sent via recorded delivery. this one wasnt! think like you say its an empty threat

[deepdebt]

Hi dtjim,

 

Re Default Notice, can you scan it or put a link up here so that wiser CAGgers can comment on the technical aspects of the Notice.

 

If all is correct with the Notice yes it would be recorded with a credit agency.

 

You seem to be getting under their skin and upsetting them, I wonder why? have they got nothing on you they could use in court?

[underdog13]

I paid token payments and still got a DN - I think it all depends on their time scales; it's very formulaic and automated.

 

The DNs I did receive were sent by ordinary post, usually first class royal mail. Some don't even bother to send them, you just get a termination notice - which should mean some problems for them in the future:D

[sunflower99]

Yes i got sent that restriction on my account letter twice!from MBNA Perhaps they think the threat will be twice as scary if they send letter twice!