Amex 60-second Application Form - 2000

[Desperate Daniella]

Hello,

 

I have seen a number of references to Amex application forms not being enforceable agreements, but I think the earliest reference I've seen is in 2003. I asked Amex for the signed agreement and what they have sent is the 60-second Application Form, also marked 'Invitation expires End March 2000'.

 

I don't have a scanner so please bear with me if I describe briefly what is on the form which is on 2/3 of A4.

 

The left hand side appears to be odd boxes and some lines with nothing written on them. At the top it says 'Yes, please send me the American Express Gold Credit Card'. There are very brief details I have given: name, address, phone number, salary, employer's name .

 

On the right hand side there are four boxes. The first is headed 'Personal Information' and tells me that 'it is important that I read the paragraphs SET OUT OVERLEAF ...... products, services, sharing information etc.

 

The second box says 'Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974'. The parties to the agreement are Amex, etc., and the applicant whose name and address are given opposite... I'm over 18 ..... etc. ... supplementary cards, and so on, then 'I agree to be bound by the Terms and Conditions which form part of this agreement.' This has NO reference to these T&Cs being overleaf.

 

Box 3 is the right to cancel.

 

Box 4 is the signature box which says 'This is a Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms.' I have signed it. No-one from Amex has.

 

On the other side it is headed 'Conditions', not Terms and Conditions. I have no idea if these were the Terms and Conditions in 2000. It appears to have the prescribed terms about interest and repayment, although I am confused as there appear to be different thoughts on whether the credit limit must be shown as a figure in any enforceable Agreement ??? as opposed to an application form. This just states they will decide my credit limit from time to time at their discretion.

 

They sent me this about a month ago. Before I asked for it I was being hounded by AIC but I have heard nothing further from them since I received this form from Amex.

 

I know I haven't given all the info, but if anyone has any thoughts about this 60-second Application or knows what was actually on the back I'd love to hear from you.

 

Thank you.

 

Desperate Daniella

[cerberusalert]

By the sounds, it doesn't contain the 'prescribed terms', ie., credit limit, APR etc. So as it stands, no it's not enforcable.

[palomino]

And if Amex haven't signed it then it hasn't been executed. Again not enforceable.

[ScabHunter]

This one could actually be quite difficult.

 

What really matters is, do they have an original which will stand up in court?

 

It is not difficult to create a 'Cut 'n' Shut' copy to satisfy a CCA request, in the hope that the recipient will accept it as enforceable and make payments. The front of the application form sounds authentic, the big question is the back. Is what is on the back of this form the same as what is on the back of the original?

 

Clearly, the original had something on it, otherwise it would not say "the paragraphs SET OUT OVERLEAF."

 

I would guess, based on what you have said here, that the Terms and Conditions referred to as being part of this agreement, but not specifically overleaf, would have been on separate sheets of paper, and that the "paragraphs set out overleaf" would have related to something else. But that is only a guess.

 

It is a shame that you cannot scan the document in. Can you not get access to a scanner anywhere?

 

One important consideration for us trying to analyze this - where you say "products, services, sharing information etc. ", relating to the box on the front of the form, do you mean that these exact words are there, or paragraphs and sentences referencing these are there? Obviously, if just the words themselves are there, it increases the likelihood that these are covered overleaf, rather than the Conditions which have appeared on this copy.

 

SH

[Desperate Daniella]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

 

Scabhunter: I'm sure the front is accurate. I'll try and find a scanner to use.

 

What makes this very difficult to work with is the layout of the photocopy they have sent. As I mentioned, the form is 2/3 A4 and I'm not certain if the back would actually fit on the front - it would be very tight. On the front page the top of the document is photocopied starting one-third down the page and runs to the bottom - the top third of the copy is blank. Overleaf the copy starts at the top of the page and the bottom third of the page is blank. This seems a very strange way to photocopy anything.

 

Paragraph 8 is Annual Percentage Rate and refers to their four cards - 1 is green, 2 companion green, 3 stand alone gold (mine) and 4 companion gold, and says that percentage rates are found in the table opposite.

 

Should my own specific credit limit be mentioned anywhere?

 

Also after posting my thread yesterday I saw another Amex thread where there is a mention of a reference number on the bottom left of the T&Cs which lets you know which date the T&Cs were produced/in force. There is no reference number on this copy. If there had to be room for a reference number under the last line of the Conditions the whole thing definitely wouldn't fit on to 2/3 A4.

 

The Personal Information box

 

"Before signing this application, it is important that you read the paragraphs set out overleaf, which set out how we collect and use information about you for the purpose of providing the Card service and other appropriate products and services. By signing this application you agree that for the purpose of processing it AMEX may

 

a carry out credit checks .....

b use various statistical methods to evaluate credit worthiness ...

c contact employer, bank .....

 

The paragraph about use of info is para 17 on the conditions overleaf. I just don't know why this box refers to 'overleaf' but the one about the 'Terms and Conditions which form part of this agreement' doesn't state 'overleaf' at all. It's not consistent.

 

I'll try and find a scanner, but if you have any further thoughts in the meantime I'd be grateful to hear them.

 

Many thanks.

 

DD

[ScabHunter]

My instincts tell me that this is another example of some conditions being photocopied onto the back of an application form in an attempt to fulfil the requirement for the prescribed terms to be within the four corners of the document.

 

The unusual feature here is that there clearly was something on the back originally - I'm just far from convinced that it was the same as what is there now.

 

We seem to be seeing this sort of thing happening quite a lot now, and it is a concern, because it leaves us needing to convince a judge that this is what has happened.

 

I may be wrong, of course, but from what you are saying I think there is significant doubt that these are two sides of the same original document.

 

SH

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi BRW - hope you are getting this.

 

As you will see from post 5 above I just don't think the front fits what they are saying was on the back. To explain I am using inches and centimetres.

 

The front page measures exactly 8 inches from top to bottom. On the other side which is headed Conditions, the top half of the capital C of conditions is cut off as is the top of the little box showing the various rates of interest for the various cards. If you completed the capital C upwards it would be only two centimetres from the very top of the page. Surely no-one ever uses margins this tiny? If you drop the top of 'Conditions' down to say, one centimetre from the top of the page, the bottom line of the conditions would drop down to 8 and 1/2 inches, and that would also mean the last lines of print would be at the very bottom of the page with no margin underneath. I don't know how to challenge this.

 

I'm sure if the T&Cs were overleaf on this it would have said it, in the same way it refers to the personal info paras being overleaf.

 

There is another new thread which could also use your help and is a bit relevant to mine. Big Naughty has one of these 60-second application forms, later than mine, and they have sent him separate terms and conditions in reply to his CCA request. That's another reason I think my T&Cs were separate.

 

I suppose I could always say I wanted to pop down to Brighton and actually see the document???

 

Thanks for all your help.

 

DD

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello DD!

 

I suppose I could always say I wanted to pop down to Brighton and actually see the document???

 

Yes, you could. Indeed, you could use CPR 31.16 although it's best to exhaust s78(1) Request and a Subject Access Request first.

 

After the above, then by all means send them a letter asking to come and see it.

 

They'll probably refuse that! This should start to tell you if they have still got the Original.

 

When they refuse your plain Request via letter, then consider wheeling out a more formal Request via CPR 31.16 to make a Physical Inspection.

 

They'll probably refuse that too! By now I think you'll know what they are hiding.

 

However, they'll probably push ahead and issue a Court Claim against you.

 

If they do, then straight away hit them with a CPR 31.14 Request to make a Physical Inspection. I know you'll have asked for this via CPR 31.16, but no harm asking again...they may see sense.

 

They'll probably refuse that too no doubt.

 

Then, when it gets to Court, first thing you do is point out to the Judge the whole issue could've been avoided if they had admitted they did not have the Original. Point out to the Judge that you have tried to see the alleged Agreement via:

 

s78(1) Statutory Request.

S.A.R. Request.

Letter Request.

CPR 31.16 Request.

CPR 31.14 Request.

 

All being well, the Judge will then turn to Amex asking them to explain why they refused each and every one of your requests and yet they still pressed on to Court!

 

If they do not have the Original, or the Original has no Prescribed Terms, then their blocking tactics should become all too apparent.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Desperate Daniella]

Hello BRW and also SC,

 

Thank you both for all your help here.

 

I hadn't mentioned s78 in my CCA, and I haven't done a SARS as I think I have most of (if not all) the statements in my office - back on Monday.

 

I've also just seen another thread which is Amex in 2001 (mine was 2000) and have posted asking if Amex said they had anything on the back of his document, and how he is getting on. I know what you were saying, BRW, about the T&Cs apparently on the back - I'm just trying to find out if they were the ones in force at the time, or actually within the agreement.

 

Do I have to do s78 and SARS, or can I just write back saying that either

 

1. rather than waste everyone's time I'd like to inspect the alleged agreement

 

or

 

2. could someone in authority with a senior legal position, i.e. with a legal qualification (solicitor, barrister employed by Amex - not marketing, typist, temp, etc.) actually sign both sides of what they are offering confirming that it is an exact copy of the agreement I signed. I cannot believe that anyone who is a member of the legal profession would actually sign their name to a falsified document. What do you think?

 

Maybe this has been done before, but I am very new here!!!! so please bear with me.

 

DD

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello DD!

 

2. could someone in authority with a senior legal position, i.e. with a legal qualification (solicitor, barrister employed by Amex - not marketing, typist, temp, etc.) actually sign both sides of what they are offering confirming that it is an exact copy of the agreement I signed. I cannot believe that anyone who is a member of the legal profession would actually sign their name to a falsified document. What do you think?

 

Don't even think about asking them for that, otherwise that is exactly what they'll give you!

 

None of them are to be trusted. If you want to see bankers and the Legal profession in action trussing themselves up with big stories, just check out the Threads by paulwlton or Sparkie1723.

 

The last thing you want to do is to trust these people.

 

No, stick to the target of seeing the Original Agreement, nothing less will do.

 

To recap, if you have a Credit Card, then you need to send them £1 and make a s78(1) Request to see a true copy of your properly executed Regulated Credit Card Agreement. They have 12+2 Working Days to Respond.

 

Whatever you have, do also send them a Subject Access Request, and that costs £10 and they have 40 Calendar Days to respond to that.

 

If what comes back from the above is dubious, then I'd write to them saying you want to come and inspect the actual Agreement.

 

If they refuse that, and they have not issued a Claim against you, then you have the option of using CPR 31.16 to Request a Physical inspection.

 

If they have issued a Claim, then you should use CPR 31.14 instead to request a Physical Inspection. Use both if needed, i.e. CPR 31.16 before they issue a Claim against you, and CPR 31.14 after they issue a Claim.

 

If the bank refuses all of these Requests, then the likelihood of them having the Original is low...and gets lower with each refusal.

 

What they'll then do is try to bluff it in Court with, wait for it, wait for it, a Witness Statement signed by...

 

...someone in authority with a senior legal position, i.e. with a legal qualification (solicitor, barrister employed by Amex - not marketing, typist, temp, etc.) actually sign both sides of what they are offering confirming that it is an exact copy of the agreement I signed.

 

Do you see the problem now, if this goes to Court, and they don't have the Original, then the above is exactly what they'll try to use against you!

 

So, no point asking them for something they'll be only too delighted to give you!

 

It's exactly these so called Witness Statements that you may have to rip to shreds in Court via Cross-Examination to show that the Witness was nothing of the kind. They'll haul out any old banking Big Wig or in-house tame Lawyer to sign such a Witness Statement. The fact they couldn't Witness anything won't matter to them, their aim will be to hoodwink a gullible Judge into believing the Witness is a real Witness just because of their banking Title.

 

No, best you stick to the plan like glue...only the Original Agreement will do!

 

Cheers,

BRW

[cashins]

2. could someone in authority with a senior legal position, i.e. with a legal qualification (solicitor, barrister employed by Amex - not marketing, typist, temp, etc.) actually sign both sides of what they are offering confirming that it is an exact copy of the agreement I signed. I cannot believe that anyone who is a member of the legal profession would actually sign their name to a falsified document. What do you think?

 

Agree with BTW on this.

 

In the past I have worked for a number of finance companies and I could count on one hand the number of 'senior people' I have met, that I don't think would put their name to such an exersize.

 

David

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi everyone,

 

Thank you all so much for your replies. Horrified to know that there are obviously so many people out there who would perjure themselves. There again, if they were legal highflyers, they probably wouldn't be working for a credit card company. That's not to say of course that everyone who works for a card company is dodgy.

 

I still have to get my Amex file (couldn't get to the office as I have a streaming cold), and get both sides of the agreement scanned in. I still don't think the back fits the front!!

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi again,

 

BRW answered a question of mine on Alphageek's thread about Amex T&Cs. Still haven't managed to get to a scanner, so have put more info below and would appreciate any ideas on what letter to write.

 

 

The Amex reply to my request for the original signed credit agreement states:

 

"Please find enclosed a copy of your original application and terms and conditions for the above account. These documents form the executed agreement between you and American Express. Please see the statements we have sent you previously to validate the debt."

 

The first and second sentences are, I think, ambiguous. They refer to my "original application" and "terms and conditions" and then they say these "documents" (plural) form the ......... BUT the photocopy of the "original application" has the 60-Second Application on one side, and the T&Cs on the reverse so that would appear to be one document.

 

As we are on this thread and I am sure others will be following too I'll repeat a bit of that here. Hope this is okay, Alphageek. It will save people flipping back and forth.

 

I am so suspicious.

 

The photocopying layout is bizarre. The copy of the Application which is 2/3 A4 starts 1/3 down the page and goes exactly to the bottom. The top third is blank.

 

Why would anyone photocopy the document like that?

 

On the reverse the Conditions start about 2 millimetres from the top of the page and go down 2/3. The bottom 1/3 of the page is blank.

 

Today I was back in the office and copied these pages. If the top of the capital C of Conditions is moved down to half an inch from the top (a more usual minimum top border) and one page is put on top of the other it is absolutely plain that the T&Cs cannot fit on the back.

 

The application form is internally inconsistent. It refers to Personal Information paragraphs (overleaf) but like one of Alphageek's forms it doesn't say that the T&Cs are overleaf.

 

The front of the application form is a true copy. I have no argument with that. But do Amex actually have the Original agreement, or have they just got a photocopy of the front page themselves?

 

I don't understand why they would have to send anything different if I do a Subject Access Request. I've got most, if not all, of my statements and am about to plough through those.

 

If they get a Subject Access Request I'm sure they won't come back and admit they put T&Cs on the back that weren't there in the first place.

 

I think all I can do is go for the CPR 31.14 (that's before action, isn't it?), and say I want to inspect the Original document at their offices, but I'm not quite sure how to phrase this because clearly I'm saying I don't believe them.

 

The reason I am so keen to know what was on the back (and I am taking your advice very seriously about what to say) is that they have sent this ambiguous letter and dodgy photocopy, and I'm sure it won't look good if they can be seen to be falsifying documents.

 

If I can find a 'back' from 2000 I'd like also to see how many T&Cs are on it - equally true if they were on a leaflet. Have I got all of them, or just up to 19, 1 & 2, because that is all they can fit on?

 

I don't know what to write back.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

I didn't mention on my own thread although I did on others that before joining CAG I had had the most appalling time with AIC who threatened me with repossession, charging orders, anything, and said that in addition to the amount on the last Amex statement I also had to pay them another £1000 on top. They quietened down when I got a CCCS number. I then sent a CCA and got the stuff referred to above. As you'll see I still don't know what to reply so haven't done anything yet.

 

I have just received a letter from RMA r£solve (yes, they really do use a £ in r£solve!!!

 

It is a very jolly letter:

 

Welcome to RMA r£solve.

 

Our Client, American Express, has informed us of your financial difficulty.

 

We understand that you've been in contact with a Voluntary Credit Advice Service.

 

American Express has appointed RMA R£solve to negotiate repayment on their behalf by providing you with advice and assistance to overcome your current debt problem.

 

At a time like this, don't you think it's more important than ever that every penny you pay goes toward reducing your debts?

 

RMA r£solve is a free service. We will assist you in managing your finances more effectively. We will get you debt free inthe shortest possible time - and we won't charge you fot it. Our services are paid for by American Express. RMA r£solve is a free service foryou.

 

We'd like to discuss your options in more detail. You can reach us on........

 

 

The amount they are referring to has taken off the £1000 AIC wanted.

 

I would have expected a letter chasing me up from Amex main legal people saying they had supplied the original copy on 4th December so why wasn't I paying them.

 

I've seen references to RMA r£solve in other threads. Is this the next step? The reasonable sounding letter?

 

What do I do next?

 

DD

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello DD!

 

I think all I can do is go for the CPR 31.14 (that's before action, isn't it?), and say I want to inspect the Original document at their offices, but I'm not quite sure how to phrase this because clearly I'm saying I don't believe them.

 

It's CPR 31.16 if they have not issued a Court Claim. See this Thread:

 

[/url] why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

 

If they do issue a Court Claim, then get ready to use CPR 31.14, see this Thread:

 

Getting Them To Reveal Their Vitals. Using CPR 31.14 to Your Advantage

 

For now, I'd just keep saying, in Plain English, that they do not appear to have provided any evidence that they ever had an Enforceable Agreement, and so you will not be making any further Payments to them.

 

Suggest that if they are willing to let you come and make a Physical Inspection of the Original Agreement (stress it must not be a copy), then you would, of course, reconsider your above conclusion.

 

Make sure you have read the CPR 31.16 Thread, and have exhausted all low cost ways to get to see what they really have, such as via s78(1) and via SAR.

 

Only then consider CPR 31.16, as there could be cost implications if you dive in without doing the background research.

 

If they do issue a Claim, then go straight in with CPR 31.14 anyway, and demand a Physical Inspection.

 

They'll probably refuse every one, which may start to confirm that they do not posses an Original Copy...or, if they do, it's probably not Enforceable anyway, and they won't let anyone see it because of this.

 

Amex are not about to walk into Court with an Original Copy of an Unenforceable Agreement, now are they!

 

Whereas they will be happy to walk into Court with a Copy, and then try to make the Court believe what would've been on the back of it!

 

You may now see the advantages of a Copy when a bank doesn't have an Enforceable Original.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[1tiger1]

I too had one of these in 1995. Brachers solicitors had recently written to me, so I CCA them. They sent me a copy of my application.

It is titled, 'virtually all you have to do is sign'. On the application there is a very small paragraph which I can not read, but the first line says Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The copy of my application IS NOT signed by american express or dated by them. Also I can not see any reference to APR on the quickie application.

Does this mean thet the agreement is not enforceable ?

Brachers also sent a copy of the agreement, but this was not with the original application.

Any thoughts.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Tiger and BRW,

 

I hadn't actually been on this thread for a while as I was trying to work out how on earth to get the application form scanned in, and have almost lost the will to live as I have tried repeatedly to use my digital camera and upload to photobucket, only to find the images barely readable - first page is better than the second so I have typed it all out.

 

Tiger, as you'll see I have issues about whether what they are implying was on the back was actually there. It looks too big.

 

They are at:

http://s711.photobucket.com/albums/ww116/DesperateDaniella

I am typing out below exactly what is says on the second page:

Note from the picture that the top of the word ‘Conditions’ is missing and the whole page starts too close to the top. If you drop the top down to about a centimetre or half an inch the back wouldn’t fit on the front.

I think the agreement looks as though it does have the prescribed terms, but I doubt whether this was actually on the back of the application form.

You’ll see from the front that it refers to the Personal Information as being ‘overleaf’, but not the Terms and Conditions. I don’t understand why the apparent ‘back’ is just headed ‘Conditions.

Anyway, this is what it actually says. I’m not filling in every section, just the bits I think relate to the prescribed terms, but if there is anything I should have typed up please let me know.

You will see that this relates to green and gold credit cards.

Conditions

Loss of Misuse of the Card

If the card is lost, stolen or misused by someone who obtained it without your consent you may be liable for £20 …..

IMPORTANT – YOU SHOU LD READ THIS CAREFULLY – YOUR RIGHTS

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 covers this agreement and lays down certain requirements for your protection which must be satisfied when the agreement is made. If they are not American Express cannot enforce the agreement against you without a court order. The act also gives you a number of rights. You have a right to settle this agreement at any time by giving notice in writing and paying off all amounts payable under the agreement. If you have obtained unsatisfactory goods or services, etc……

1. DEFINITIONS

2. USING THE CARD

3. THE ACCOUNT.

4. FOREIGN CHARGES

5. FEES (Annual Fees)

6. CREDIT LIMIT

We will decide, at our discretion, your credit limit from time to time and inform you what it is. There is a separate limit for cash withdrawals. You may only draw up to £200 in any seven day period. If your credit limit is less than £5000 the total amount you may withdraw in the month after each statement date is subject to an additional restriction equal to 20% of your credit limit. We may vary these limits from time to time and give you notice.

7. INTEREST CHARGES

1. Green Credit Card – (I didn’t have a green one).

2. Gold Credit Card. We will charge interest every day at a fixed rate of 0.75% per month for six months from the signing by us of this agreement and thereafter at the standard gold credit card rate which is at present l.20% per month.

3. In the case of any cash withdrawal …

4. In the case of balance transfers ….

5. We may change any of the above standard rates of interest at any time at our discretion. We will not charge any interest on any transaction other than a cash withdrawal or a balance transfer if you pay the whole amount you owe on the account within 25 days of the statement date. If you do not pay the full amount that you owe within 25 days we will charge interest on any amount you owe from the last month and on a daily basis of each transaction you make from the date we process it until you pay the total amount that you owe.

6. Transaction charge for cash withdrawals…..

8 ANNUAL PERCENTAGE RATE

l. For the stand alone green credit card …..

2. For the companion green credit card ….

3. For the stand alone Gold card the APR for purchases will be 9.3%. Please refer to the table opposite for the applicable APRs for cash withdrawals.

4. For the companion Gold card ….

If the credit limit you are allocated is not shown you should look at the next lowest

credit limit for the appropriate APR.

The APRs shown above are based on present introductory rate of interest and

current first year fees. Where applicable we can vary these fees and the APRs

quoted above do not take account of any possible variations which may take

place in the future.

Then the table of percentages.

Cash withdrawal percentage for my card was 16.6%

9. STATEMENTS

1. We will send you a regular monthly statement so that you know how much you owe on your account. Each statement will show the minimum amount you need to pay us which will be 3% of the total amount showing or £5 whichever is more. You can also pay anything up to the full amount you owe if you wish.

2. (a) We will repay fees, other costs and charges that have been made.

(b) We will repay all the interest shown on the statement.

© We will repay money in respect of Promotional Transactions and Balance

Transfers shown on any statement.

(d) We will repay money in respect of the transactions (other than cash

withdrawals) shown on any satatement.

(e) We will repay any money shown in respect of cash withdrawals shown

on any statement.

(f) We will repay money in respect of transactions (other than cash

withdrawals) made, but not yet shown on any statement.

(g) We will repay any money in respect of cash withdrawals, made but not

yet shown on any statement.

3. If you pay us a cheque or direct debit and your bank does not honour the cheque or direct debit we may charge you for any costs we incur. You are also responsible for any costs which we have to pay in recovering any overdue payments from you. This includes costs we may incur in using a third party, such as a solicitor, and any costs that they themselves incur in trying to recover debt on your behalf. ***** Surely they must mean “debt on OUR behalf”?

4. If we have not received the minimum payment specified in your monthly statement within 25 days of the date of the statement we reserve the right to impose a £15 account suspension fee which will be payable by you.

5. If the balance of your account is over the credit limit on the date of the statement a £12 overlimit fee will be payable by you in respect of each month that your account is over the credit limit.

10. ENDING THE AGREEMENT

1. You can end this agreement at any time by returning to us all cards we have sent you to use in connection with the account with a letter asking us to end this agreement. We will only end this agreement when we receive all cards and you have paid off all the amounts you owe. You can cancel a card held by an additional card holder …..(not relevant to me).

2. We can cancel this agreement at any time by giving immediate notice. Alternatively we can stop you using the card. If we end this agreement you must pay all of the money you owe on the account including transactions and cash withdrawals not yet debited to your account.

3. (relates to protecting the card and pin.

11. RENEWING THE CARD

12. CARDS

(They can send you a green card instead of a gold one.)

13. DEATH AND BANKRUPTCY

14. PROTECTING THE CARD AND PIN

15. LIABILITY AND REFUNDS

16. VARYING OR TRANSFERRING THIS AGREEMENT

1. We may vary any of these Conditions at any time by giving you notice.

2. We may assign our rights, benefits or obligations under this Agreement at any

time.

17 USE OF INFORMATION

18. GOVERNING LAW

1. This agreement is governed by the laws of England.

2. You are responsible for keeping to any exchange control regulations or any other

local regulations if they apply to the use of your card.

I have heard that there is normall a reference number on the bottom of any sheets of t & cs like this, but there is nothing there at all.

If it looks as though the prescribed terms are okay and would make the agreement (application!) enforceable then obviously I'll take your advice BRW and ask for a personal inspection of the document.

Thanks everyone for your help.

DD

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello DD!

 

Hard to say from the Images, but it looks like a Copy of an Application Form, and then a Copy of some Terms.

 

Who can say if these were ever linked?

 

The Application Form seems to be quite grey, although the APPROVED Stamp seems to be suspiciously Black by comparison to the faded out Heading and Text...I wonder if they have added that recently!!

 

By comparison, the page of Terms are quite black, headings seem crisper and darker than anything on the Application Form.

 

I think this is a wishful grouping of Copies by Amex, hoping you'll think they are two sides of the same original.

 

Amazing how few actual copies of the original Amex has...none have appeared on CAG (that I am aware of).

 

You'd think they'd have at least one!

 

The copies are also odd in the sense that the Application Form is way down at the bottom of the A4 Page, whereas the Terms are way up at the top of the A4 Page.

 

That doesn't suggest they had an original two-sided thing and placed it onto the scanning bed of a modern Photocopier, copied side A and then flipped it over to copy side B.

 

The end result in that case would be two perfectly crisp copies, and both would be at the top of the Sheet of A4.

 

What they have sent does not appear to be a recent copy of a two-sided original. The two sides are also sufficiently dissimilar in terms of blackness and crispness to suggest the two sides were not copied at the same time using the same equipment.

 

If not, why not?

 

So, whatever the Terms say, if they were never on the back of the Application Form, then they are irrelevant.

 

Take your time and take a good look at what they have sent. To help you, turn it upside down so you are not actually reading the Text, and can instead concentrate on the image/scan quality. Look for significant differences to say if you think these two prints were linked in any way...or not!

 

Is one grey/faded, is one clear/blacker/darker, is one crisp, is one blurred? Are they to the same scale, measure them with a ruler to check.

 

Just to prove the point, when you next get the chance, take an original two-sided Document, and have it copied on a modern Photocopier. Then compare the result with what Amex have sent.

 

I think you may see what I mean.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited February 8, 2009 by banker_rhymes_with
Typo

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi BRW,

 

Thank you so much for responding so quickly. In am sorry they are such bad copies on photobucket. I have tried everything I can to take better photos. I am so glad you can see what I mean by funny photocopying. I have copied both sides and held one up against the other as you suggest and they really don't fit.

 

I've also turned it upside down and again I don't think they match.

 

I also posted on another thread today that I appear to be the only person on CAG who has had one of these application forms which allegedly has t & cs on the back. That can't be right. Other people have just received the front.

 

If the T & Cs were on the back (which clearly we both doubt!), would you say they were okay? As you say though, if they weren't on the back they are irrelevant.

 

I'll probably come back to you with a suggested letter to view the original.

 

Thank you again,

 

DD

[pelham9]

I am interested in AMEX interest rates which are not usually shown correctly.

 

For purchases can you give me the monthly rate, the annual rate and the %APR

 

If there are errors it could help you

[Desperate Daniella]

Thank you, Pelham.

 

The Conditions/'agreement' shows rates for the green card, gold card, and the companion cards for both. Presumably it's only my own which would be relevant? I didn't have a companion card.

 

I have checked the 'agreement' against my first statement and the figures are the same for purchases: Interest was 0.75% for an introductory six months, then rising to 1.20% per month. They don't show an annual rate on the statements, just a monthly rate.

 

They say on the agreement that the standard rate is 1.20% per month, again they don't quote an annual rate.

 

The agreement says the APR for purchases will be 9.3% and cash withdrawals will be 16.6% for the credit limit I was given.

 

This is where I get muddled. I have never known whether the APR is worked out by 12 x 12 months, or whether the whole thing has to be worked out on a daily basis or weekly basis (52 weeks).

 

If the whole year had been at 0.75% x 12 then that would have been 9%, and 1.20% x 12 would have been 14.4%. It's confusing to me because of the change after six months.

 

Cash shows as 1.20% per month on the statement, so if this is multiplied by 12 again it would be 14.4%, so I don't know how they get 16.6%.

 

I'm very confused by all this. If I have left anything out, please let me know.

 

Thank you again.

 

DD

[kitchenboy]

Having to deal with rma and amex as well. They sent us an application form dated 2001 with no prescribed terms and lacking any sort of t & c's so just waiting for their next move. Anyway just a thought and I apologise if I have missed it but do they list any default and late payment charges in the t & c's you have.

 

There is a reference to a £12 over the limit fee which seems a bit odd especially when they were all to happy to slap £20, £25 and £30+ charges onto accounts at that time. Could it be that these t & c's date from after the OFT got involved?

 

Good luck

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Kitchenboy,

 

The T&Cs are so tiny I'll have to read them in daylight!!! There is a reference to a £12 over-limit fee which was right at the time - I've checked my statements. However, I've also noticed from other threads that different agreements (even in the same year) have different late payment fees. I had some late payment fees of £25, others of £15, and I think, though I need to check, that after OFT became involved they dropped down to £8.

 

I'll have a look tomorrow to see if there is any reference to defaults on the T&Cs.

 

Are you going to ask them for the T & Cs. CCA 1974 states that if there is a separate leaflet/document it must be provided at the same time as the agreement for a CCA request. Obviously if the admit the T&Cs were actually on a separate leaflet it won't be enforceable.

 

Is there any reference on the front to the Personal Info "overleaf"?

 

Good luck to you too!!

 

DD

 

 

 

If you are yet another person who received a copy of an application form with no T&Cs on the back, I am become more suspicious by the day.

 

I'm just waiting for Pelham to come back to me on the APRs and interest rates, and then I'm going to book an appointment to visit.S

[Desperate Daniella]

Sorry, typos. I am becoming more suspicious ....

[kitchenboy]

Hi DD

 

Here is a scan of the application form;

 

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p...cationcopy.jpg (the copy sent was very poor)

 

As this is my wife's account, ultimately she is the one who will have to face the judge if it comes to it. So I am having to tread carefully. RMA changed tact very quickly after they sent the application form and began hounding constantly, phoning, letters etc. However haven't heard a peep since asking them nicely to clarify why they think what they sent makes a valid agreement.

 

In response to your questions, yes I can just about make out a reference to personal details "overleaf" and I think pointing out their mess up with the t & c's will be the next step to shut them up when they start shouting again.

 

Thanks for pointing that out. So much to get your head around with the CCA 1974.