Child Minding Contracts

[mjk1104]

We have recently placed our 2 children with a childminder. We have today received a new contract to sign which is applicable from January the 1st 2009. There are a couple of points that we feel are unfair and just wondered if this was the norm for child minding contracts the points are as follows:

 

1.Full Fees on public holidays, so if Christmas day falls on a childminding day we have to pay even though it is not a working day

 

2. Full Fees for childminders holidays - I thought if you were self employed if you took holiday you didnt get paid. I can understand paying for our holiday but not the childminders

 

3. Full fees due to childminder illness - My wifes employer provides an emergency childcare provision but the cost is significant as it is based in the city of London, so in the event of our childminders illness we end up having to beear 2 costs

 

An y thoughts comments would be welcome

 

Thanks

[ErikaPNP]

The first one is an acceptable change, but only if the childminder is prepared to work the public holiday if required.

 

The second and third points are completely unacceptable, IMHO. If the childminder is not providing the service, then she has no right morally to expect payment for a service she is not providing.

 

However, a contract once signed is binding and a childminder can put anything he or she chooses to on the contract. Crunch is whether or not you choose to agree to it by signing it. Until you actually sign it, she cannot enforce anything within it. If however you sign it, you cannot argue later.

 

Personally I'd speak to her and explain that I am not happy to pay for any day she is unwilling or unable to work. If the service is not available, there is no justification for her charging you for it, this is the privelage of an employed individual and you are not her employers. It is not justifiable for her to charge for a service she has chosen to make unavailable, especially when you have to pay someone else. If she won't budge on it, I'd look for another childminder. You may well find if she realises she's going to lose out on a full time contract, she may review her proposals and accept to continue as she has been.

 

Personally I'd never pay for a service which was not available, though I may compromise to a half fee but ONLY if my holidays coincided with hers, not if I had to arrange a holiday around her though.

[The Phantom]

The first one is an acceptable change, but only if the childminder is prepared to work the public holiday if required.

 

The second and third points are completely unacceptable, IMHO. If the childminder is not providing the service, then she has no right morally to expect payment for a service she is not providing.

 

However, a contract once signed is binding and a childminder can put anything he or she chooses to on the contract. Crunch is whether or not you choose to agree to it by signing it. Until you actually sign it, she cannot enforce anything within it. If however you sign it, you cannot argue later.

 

Personally I'd speak to her and explain that I am not happy to pay for any day she is unwilling or unable to work. If the service is not available, there is no justification for her charging you for it, this is the privelage of an employed individual and you are not her employers. It is not justifiable for her to charge for a service she has chosen to make unavailable, especially when you have to pay someone else. If she won't budge on it, I'd look for another childminder. You may well find if she realises she's going to lose out on a full time contract, she may review her proposals and accept to continue as she has been.

 

Personally I'd never pay for a service which was not available, though I may compromise to a half fee but ONLY if my holidays coincided with hers, not if I had to arrange a holiday around her though.

 

I think according to OFSTED and their guidelines for childminders they are actually able to charge for their holidays and sickness. But not all do.

I have had childminders for our children since 2001 and out of three I used only one charged like the one described above. I had to pay her for her contracted days plus her annual holidays and sickness days. The other two childminders wouldn't charge when they were not available but charged 50% when we didn't send the kids for sickness or holiday reasons.

So I would check other childminders locally and compare their terms and conditions before signing up with this one

[ErikaPNP]

Yes a childminder can charge what they like, which is why I stated it was unacceptable IMHO - my opinion only. I find it unacceptable to expect payment for a service he/she is refusing to provide, and that she had no moral right. Moral, not legal. The moral part being that if she is refusing to provide a service as she decides she is taking time off, it is not morally justifiable for her to charge for it, as paid holidays are a privelage an employee can expect from an employer.

 

However they can only charge this if the parent signs a contract agreeing to it. If a parent refuses, they have two options:

1. - Accept fees as per the current contract signed by both parties

2. - Terminate the place of the child.

 

Fees can be charged at a rate the childminder chooses - but only if the parent signs a contract agreeing to it. To insist on fees that have no signatory agreement would have no standing in law if the childminder chose to go down the legal route. A contract does not expire unless it has an expiry date on it, or is superseeded by a new contract.

 

IMHO, although childminders can be the salt of the earth, there are also a few who like to use the self employed perks but also think nothing of taking a piece of employee perks too. Employee rights are not there for the self employed to take advantage of, and it's this that I object to.

The other thing I should add FAO the OP is OFSTEAD does not govern if you live in Scotland, it is the Scottish Care Commision.

Edited December 19, 2008 by ErikaPNP

[The Phantom]

Although in theory they can charge what they want, they will be ill advised to charge much more than the local average as they may not get any business

I find there is very little difference in the hourly rate minders charge here locally. It is between £2.50 and £3.- per hour. What usually does differ though is their individual terms.

Some think they are entitled to holiday and sickness pay and will charge full price for these instances and others do not.

I must admit it always annoyed me having to pay the one childminder her holidays at full price and then also pay for her holiday cover. So in those instances I had to pay two childminders for the same period of time unless I wanted to take my holidays at the same time as her which didn't always suited us.

I have since always made sure the childminders I choose do not charge for their absences, but I do believe (have been told) they are being encouraged to charge by the Ofsted inspectors and are being told "they are entitled to it"

[ErikaPNP]

That doesn't surprise me, that they are encouraged to do it. I am a single parent working full time and have no family around to help so I try to fit my annual leave around my childminder's holidays, however it's not always possible if my company are at their full quota for annual leave. My childminder doesn't charge for her holidays regardless of whether I take holidays at the same time, I'm lucky that way as many charge half fee if the holidays coincide.

 

The NCMA (national child minding Association, or SCMA in Scotland) also encourage childminders to charge full fee for their holidays. I have heard some are charging double per hour fees for public holidays if worked too.

 

Childminders here are very expensive. £3.75 per hour - £5.00 per hour is the average range. Some offer family discounts, some don't.

 

Another thing that bugs me is childminders charging for a full day to mind a school age child. The reason given is "I am responsible for them while they are in school" - no they are not, the parent is. If a child has an accident in school requiring a doctor's appointment or a hospital visit, the childminder won't acompany them (and to be honest, most parents would want to accompany their child in such circumstance), and if a child is sent home unwell, again a childminder won't take them and phone the parent to collect the child. Another reason sometimes given is they cannot fill the place for the remainder of the day - of course they can. If the school day is 9am to 3pm, that's a good six hours - not all parents work full time, I know a few who are desperate for childminders who will take a child part time. If they really cannot fill the place and the childminder is agreeable to take a school age child full time days during school holidays, then fair enough - charge a retainer fee during term time to keep the place for the child, but not a "per hour" fee.

 

Again, I'm lucky, childminder does not charge for school hours but takes daughter during school holidays at the hourly rate without charging a retainer. Saying that I don't get a family discount and have another daughter in full time day care with her, so she makes up the fall in fees there. When my younger begins to attend school I would be happy to pay a retainer for school holidays, or alternatively send them to a holiday playscheme, which usually run the same hours as a school day would do.

[The Phantom]

Yes, it varies greatly. As with everything these days it can pay to shop around.

Our first childminder we had after our eldest was born in 2001 didn't charge for her holidays and time off but only because she was of the opinion she could then take as much leave as she wanted as she didn't charge for it. She didn't want to charge as she would then be tied down to a certain amount of days off per annum which didn't suit her. She wanted to take time off as often as she liked....which again caused us problems as she was forever phoning taking time off leaving us stranded.

The best childminder we had only charged £2.- per hour , only took one (uncharged) holiday of 2 weeks per year and only phoned in to take a day off at short notice once when her dog suddenly died and she had to make arrangements. But she then got a'real' job working for local disabled facilities as a carer and gave up childminding. That was a real blow at the time

There are some gems out there but they can be tricky to find

[JKP280505]

I am a childminder and never used to charge for my holidays. However, given that the parents all receive paid holidays they are all happy to pay me when I take holiday (4 weeks per year).

 

I also charge for bank holidays if they fall on a day when the child would normally attend. Everyone else gets the day off paid, or a day in lieu so I feel that I should be entitled to the same. I used to offer to work on a bank holiday if required but charged double time. I now take it as paid leave. If a child were to not attend because the parent had the day off and I did not charge for bank holidays, then I would be losing money for a day that everyone else is getting paid for. I did not decide when bank holidays should be or that everyone is entitled to have them as paid leave, so why should I lose out??!!

 

I do not charge if I cannot work due to sickness.

 

Basically, it is up to the childminder. It is their business and there are parents who are happy to pay for the childminder's time off, as a reward for how hard they work the rest of the year. If you are unhappy paying for the service you get then go to someone cheaper who probably doesn't offer the same value for money!

[JKP280505]

I have a question for NCMA members - can you use your own contracts for childminding that you have written yourself? I resent paying so much for the NCMA ones and the ones I have written take up only one page instead of three, but contain the same information in addition to all the extra bits that I would normally have to write in by hand on the NCMA ones, which takes up so much time!

[The Phantom]

Everyone else gets the day off paid, or a day in lieu so I feel that I should be entitled to the same.

 

Only employed people have got these benefits, self-employed people don't and childminders are self-employed so no such entitlement, I am afraid.

I wouldn't go to a childminder anymore who charged me for his/her holidays or even bank holidays. There is too much choice out there these days. They are all looking for business now that the recession is hitting. Childminders advertising vacancies are popping up everywhere, so I would not go to one that tries to charge me for things she / he is not entitled to

[mustang67]

That doesn't surprise me, that they are encouraged to do it. I am a single parent working full time and have no family around to help so I try to fit my annual leave around my childminder's holidays, however it's not always possible if my company are at their full quota for annual leave. My childminder doesn't charge for her holidays regardless of whether I take holidays at the same time, I'm lucky that way as many charge half fee if the holidays coincide.

 

The NCMA (national child minding Association, or SCMA in Scotland) also encourage childminders to charge full fee for their holidays. I have heard some are charging double per hour fees for public holidays if worked too.

 

Childminders here are very expensive. £3.75 per hour - £5.00 per hour is the average range. Some offer family discounts, some don't.

 

Another thing that bugs me is childminders charging for a full day to mind a school age child. The reason given is "I am responsible for them while they are in school" - no they are not, the parent is. If a child has an accident in school requiring a doctor's appointment or a hospital visit, the childminder won't acompany them (and to be honest, most parents would want to accompany their child in such circumstance), and if a child is sent home unwell, again a childminder won't take them and phone the parent to collect the child. Another reason sometimes given is they cannot fill the place for the remainder of the day - of course they can. If the school day is 9am to 3pm, that's a good six hours - not all parents work full time, I know a few who are desperate for childminders who will take a child part time. If they really cannot fill the place and the childminder is agreeable to take a school age child full time days during school holidays, then fair enough - charge a retainer fee during term time to keep the place for the child, but not a "per hour" fee.

 

Again, I'm lucky, childminder does not charge for school hours but takes daughter during school holidays at the hourly rate without charging a retainer. Saying that I don't get a family discount and have another daughter in full time day care with her, so she makes up the fall in fees there. When my younger begins to attend school I would be happy to pay a retainer for school holidays, or alternatively send them to a holiday playscheme, which usually run the same hours as a school day would do.

 

You say childminders are very expensive

3.75-- 5.00 an hour . The minimum wage is 5.73 so childminders are working on the cheap.

 

Yes you can use own contracts.

 

Wife is registered Childminder.

To those people who resent paying fees in holidays, pack your job in and YOU look after them full time.

[butterflies]

This is an old thread but the comments within are still valid, so I thought I would add a little info, without wanting to repeat what has been said above.

 

I think people forget that childminders also have costs, so whilst our income remains at below the mininum wage we still have to pay our own National Insurance, tax, costs of administration, toys, fuel, groups, outings etc.

 

I think people may also not realise that childminders often have to get ready for the day quite early (my children have to be ready before my minded children arrive, and before the minded children arrive, I have to do paperwork as required by Ofsted. During the day there is also cause for paperwork and specific forms to meet the requirements of an Early Years setting. This works continues into the evening when I have to do planning. Also childminders have to attend training courses, all mostly done in their own time to ensure that the children they look after are kept as safe as possible. Safety is paramount!

 

I know minders who charge as above. I am not going to comment on those, because some minders I know are worth their weight in gold, and others aren't. Personally I charge when I am available. I choose not to work during holidays and take no retainer for those, but this is risky for myself, as I could end up returning to work in September with parents that have decided not to return, and I am without work.... Not that this has ever happened.

 

Childminders these days are usually professional people, with alot of training. They provide a different sort of care to a Nursery environment. We are much more flexible and able to assist when parents are late after work.

[The Phantom]

You say childminders are very expensive

3.75-- 5.00 an hour . The minimum wage is 5.73 so childminders are working on the cheap.

 

Yes you can use own contracts.

 

Wife is registered Childminder.

To those people who resent paying fees in holidays, pack your job in and YOU look after them full time.

 

Yes, that is expensive, as the charge is PER CHILD and childminders usually have more than one.

And yes, we can do without childminders as we will go to nurseries instead where you can get free sessions funded by the government.

No, I wouldn't have to 'pack in my job' and look after them myself at all. There really is too much choice out there. It's probably you who should pack your childminding job in and find employment somewhere so you can get your holidays paid.

[The Phantom]

I really believe that childminders are not offering a unique service and should not overrate their own work.

Stay-at-home mums do the same thing without pay. The comment we have costs and get ready early makes me laugh. We all have to pay tax, have bills to pay and some people work night shift or start at 5 in the morning. Or 2 in the morning. No, sorry guys, you stay on the carpet and realize that there is choice out there and no working parent should have to pay a self employed person for their holidays. I never have paid a childminder for holidays taken and would never ever do so. If you are self employed you don't get paid when you don't work. Simples.

[pistachio]

Going back to the OP, from the childminder's point of view they're protecting the slot you've booked I guess if you don't use it, but definitely I'd compare to others.