Baliffs come to my door - Help me I'm innocent

[JamesAndAmy]

Hi there,

 

I am looking for some advice.

 

Yesterday a balliff arrived at my door asking for £3068 in unpaid council tax bills (and charges!!!!) from my wife from 6 years ago!!!!

 

Apparently this was unpaid arrears for a flat that my wife had been living in for 4 years.

 

Now according to my wife the agreement with the landlord was that he would pay all bills for the property. IE The the rent constituted an all inclusive amount, and that seems to have been honoured for every other bill, electricity, water rate etc.

 

I talked to the council yesterday stating that and that my wife never received one bill (apparently numerous bills/reminders/summons were sent to the original property!!!!!). However my wife never received any bills at the time.

 

The flat that my wife had was one of two in the house. Post generally went to the other flat as that had the postbox. The tennants of that flat would then post through my wifes door. However not one council tax bill or associated correspondance ever arrived.

 

The council advised us that Landlord had put the liability in my wifes name on the day she moved in. This seems unbelivable. So my wife became liable for a bill that she hadn't agreed to without anybody checking with her (To my knowledge you can't do this with any other bill you must get identification.)

 

It seems to me that this is a con. The landlord makes out that the rent is one price to the tennant (which is attractive so they will stay) and then tells the council something else. It then takes six years for them to get themselves sorted out.

 

I would really like to hear the advice of the forum on this. I am keen to know how to proceed, because as far as I am concerned we don't owe the council 1 penny. The landlord does.

 

Your help is really appreciated forum.........

[buzby]

Unfortunately, Council Tax is one of these debts where the debtor is found guilty BEFORE any court action. As to whether your wife paid her Council Tax inclusive or exclusive of her rent is of no interest to the council, they just want the money and will do everything in their power to get it.

 

If she has any hope, it will be that she holds confirmation from the landlord that CT will be paid by him, and that her rent is inclusive of any CT amount. From what you describe, each flat has its own entrance door, and as such individual CT bills are more than likely - making any landlord agreement for the payment of CT vitally important. This can then be shown to the Council and they can then pursue the owner. However the obligation to pay usually rests with the tenant. If there is nothing to prove that the landlord agreed to pay, then the tenant has no come back and will be liable to pay for the services received.

 

The only good news is that (so far) councils do not disclose these defaults to CRA's - but the bailiffs will be tenacious.

[JamesAndAmy]

Thanks Buzby,

 

I really appreciate the response.

 

However, this issue was 6/7 years ago. As such the tennancy agreement has long ago been tossed.

 

If this was something that my wife was due to pay I would have no hesitation in doing so. However she was not, and no bills ever came through to her.

 

Therefore I feel it is my responsibility to fight this.

 

What I need is good advice on how to effectively go about this.

 

With thaat info I will give it my full attention and try to ensure that the Council does what is right.

 

PURSUE THE LANDLORD

[JamesAndAmy]

Hi has any got any constructive advice on this issue. Really hoping for your help.

[davethorp]

Only advice I can offer is under no circumstances let the bailiff in! If you have a car it may be advisable parking it away from the house for the time being as well

[raydetinu]

Dont bills die after 6 years? if not acknowledged.

[Zamzara]

Yes, the liability order has to be applied for within 6 years of the council tax becoming due.

[buzby]

As other have pointed out, there is a 6-year limit on liability orders, however there is a possibility exceptions have been made for Council Tax Arrears specifically (In Scotland 'poll tax' non-payers are STILL being pursued, slowly and steadily).

 

Incidentally, she doesn't have to receive a letter/bill from the council to be liable. Providing they have her details as a taxpayer, she would have to prove the landlord had not paid her share, putting the ball back in her court. I appreciate this is a very awkward situation to be in, but if there is no proof that the landlord was to pay, she remains liable and will all the attendant penalties for late payment and arrears.

 

It MIGHT be possible to negotiate a settlement of some sort, but it'll take a visit to the Finance Department of the Council who have the power to adjust and amend. By putting across her side, they may listen - or provide an alternative solution.

[Conniff]

and will be liable to pay for the services received

 

So nothing owed then

[buzby]

Yes, like 75% of my tax going to educate schoolkids and I never used that facility since.... 1972..? Time for a rebate! (I wish!)

[legalpickle]

I suggest the OP finds the rental agreement first.

 

Even if that cannot be found, draft a harsh letter of complaint and post a draft here - minus any confidential information - to the council and will try to proof it for you.

 

It may help. If that doesn't work then you should also take it to your MP after that, but let's complain to the council first.

 

If you give me the name of the council, I'll find out the complaints address for you.

 

Mods: I think this should be moved to the debt forum.

[JamesAndAmy]

Thanks for all of the feedback

 

We feel really agrieved about this. All of the onus is on us to prove everything. After 7 years (from when my wife moved in) this has come up.

 

How exactly can we prove that she did not receive the bills.

 

Was she really supposed to ring the council to check that no-one had made her liable for the council tax.

 

Does everyone keep tennancy agreements from 7 years ago even when they have got married and moved house.

[legalpickle]

Thanks for all of the feedback

 

We feel really agrieved about this. All of the onus is on us to prove everything. After 7 years (from when my wife moved in) this has come up.

 

How exactly can we prove that she did not receive the bills.

 

Was she really supposed to ring the council to check that no-one had made her liable for the council tax.

 

Does everyone keep tennancy agreements from 7 years ago even when they have got married and moved house.

That's life in this damned country. Sorry.

 

Post a draft letter - minus any confidential information - here and I'll try and proof it for you.

[JamesAndAmy]

Thanks LP. Will do and you offer is appreciated

 

Another thing:

 

I rang the council. No evidence was requested to check liability. Is this allowed. I could not do this for Water Rates (as an example). I would need to provide proof.

 

Another thing £3068 for the coucil tax on a tiny 1 bedroom flat in Nottingham seems VERY VERY high even for 3.5 years. Could the landlord have said that my wife was responsible for the whole property??????

[legalpickle]

Thanks LP. Will do and you offer is appreciated

 

Another thing:

 

I rang the council. No evidence was requested to check liability. Is this allowed. I could not do this for Water Rates (as an example). I would need to provide proof.

 

Another thing £3068 for the coucil tax on a tiny 1 bedroom flat in Nottingham seems VERY VERY high even for 3.5 years. Could the landlord have said that my wife was responsible for the whole property??????

What people don't understand is that Council Tax goes by bands. So the lowest band being band A that does make sense. It doesn't go by the size, though a large house is likely to be in a higher band, it goes by the value of the property within certain bands. So below a certain amount - however much below - would be in band A which in Salford is currently about £1k.

 

However was she single at the time? In such a case she should have received a 25% reduction on Council Tax.

 

It is impossible to answer these questions properly without having the letter written to them and seeing their responses.

 

Once you receive their responses if they are not satisfactory, the next thing is to write to your MP.

 

If we can see that they have made a mistake then a Local Government Ombudsman complaint may help, but their remit is strictly "maladministration causing injustice" so if there was no maladministration despite the injustice such a complaint would be useless and only seek to antagonize them.

[JamesAndAmy]

thanks I will get on with that letter tonight and post in draft here.

 

My wife is part of the civil service union and is going to contact them to see if they can help with legal advice and support.

 

I will let the forum know what they say

[JamesAndAmy]

OK LP here is the letter of complaint with the confidential issue taken out. Tell me what you think. Any mods gratefully received

 

 

October 8, 2008

Nottingham City Council

The Guildhall

Burton Street

Nottingham

NG1 4BT

RE: Visiting of a Bristow & Sutor Bailiff to my abode on the 06th October 2008

Dear Sir or Madam:

I am writing to complain in the strongest terms with regards to the above visitation by a bailiff to my house.

According to the bailiff the visit was to retrieve claimed council tax arrears for Miss Amelia xxxxxxx. The arrears were allegedly accrued during the period 31st July 2002 until sometime in 2007, for the property XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

The amount which the bailiff claims has been accrued and is now owed is £3068.54.

I wish to strongly complain about this visit on the following grounds.

1: This is the first time that Miss xxxxxxx (now Mrs Amelia xxxxxxxx) is aware that she has been approached by the council in relation to council tax arrears. From 31st July 2002 no bills or any other correspondence has been forthcoming with regards to this matter. We found it absolutely outrageous that the apparent first port of call for the council with regards to this matter is recourse to a debt recovery company.

2: With regards to the claim for council tax on Miss Leeman for the period outlined above; Miss xxxxxxx vehemently contests that the council tax was included in the rent which she paid to her landlord Mr. XXXXX. At no time did Miss Leeman agree to accept liability for the council tax on the property. However, on contacting your office it was confirmed to Miss Leeman that Mr XXXXXhad been allowed to transfer liability without any coobberating evidence, such as the tenancy agreement.

Therefore Miss xxxxxx has wrongly been made responsible for a substantial sum of £3068.54 of council tax arrears without even being aware of the alleged liability. Furthermore the first time that Miss Leeman is aware of allegation of liability for these arrears is some 6 years and 2 months after first moving into those premises.

Please be advised that unless your office deals with this matter to the satisfaction of Miss xxxxxxx at your earliest possible convenience we will be pursuing our complaints with utmost vigor. We will be making our complaints known to our local councilors, Nottingham City Council as a whole, the board of directors for Nottingham City Council, our local MP as well as the Valuation Tribunal and, if necessary to the Local Government Ombudsman claiming, as we believe, maladministration causing injustice.

I trust that you will immediately give this complaint your utmost attention. Please be advised that we require your response to this complaint in writing.

Sincerely,

Edited October 10, 2008 by JamesAndAmy
remove names

[JamesAndAmy]

Also I need to stop the baliff from returning how do I do that????? I want to stop incurring anymore charges

[legalpickle]

OK LP here is the letter of complaint with the confidential issue taken out. Tell me what you think. Any mods gratefully received

 

 

October 8, 2008

Nottingham City Council

The Guildhall

Burton Street

Nottingham

NG1 4BT

RE: Visiting of a Bristow & Sutor Bailiff to my abode on the 06th October 2008

Dear Sir or Madam:

I am writing to complain in the strongest terms with regards to the above visitation by a bailiff to my house.

According to the bailiff the visit was to retrieve claimed council tax arrears for Miss A Lxxxxxx. The arrears were allegedly accrued during the period 31st July 2002 until sometime in 2007, for the property XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

The amount which the bailiff claims has been accrued and is now owed is £3068.54.

I wish to strongly complain about this visit on the following grounds.

1: This is the first time that Miss Lxxxxxx (now Mrs Axxxx Mxxxxx) is aware that she has been approached by the council in relation to council tax arrears. From 31st July 2002 no bills or any other correspondence has been forthcoming with regards to this matter. We found it absolutely outrageous that the apparent first port of call for the council with regards to this matter is recourse to a debt recovery company.

2: With regards to the claim for council tax on Miss Lxxxxx for the period outlined above; Miss Lxxxxx vehemently contests that the council tax was included in the rent which she paid to her landlord Mr. XXXXX. At no time did Miss Lxxxxx agree to accept liability for the council tax on the property. However, on contacting your office it was confirmed to Miss Lxxxxx that Mr XXXXXhad been allowed to transfer liability without any coobberating evidence, such as the tenancy agreement.

Therefore Miss Lxxxxx has wrongly been made responsible for a substantial sum of £3068.54 of council tax arrears without even being aware of the alleged liability. Furthermore the first time that Miss Leeman is aware of allegation of liability for these arrears is some 6 years and 2 months after first moving into those premises.

Please be advised that unless your office deals with this matter to the satisfaction of Miss Lxxxxx at your earliest possible convenience we will be pursuing our complaints with utmost vigor. We will be making our complaints known to our local councilors, Nottingham City Council as a whole, the board of directors for Nottingham City Council, our local MP as well as the Valuation Tribunal and, if necessary to the Local Government Ombudsman claiming, as we believe, maladministration causing injustice.

I trust that you will immediately give this complaint your utmost attention. Please be advised that we require your response to this complaint in writing.

Sincerely,

 

Proposed letter [after amending yours]:

 

Complaints Department,

Nottingham City Council,

The Guildhall,

Burton Street,

Nottingham,

NG1 4BT

 

10th October 2008

 

Dear Sirs,

 

I am writing to complain about the visit of a Bristow & Sutor bailiff to my property on the 6th October 2008.

 

According to the bailiff the visit was to retrieve council tax arrears for Miss Axxxxx Lxxxxx. The arrears were allegedly accrued during the period 31st July 2002 until sometime in 2007, for the property XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

The amount which the bailiff claims has been accrued and is now owed is £3068.54.

 

1. This is the first time that Miss. Lxxxxx (now Mrs. Axxxxx Mxxxxxxx) has been approached by the council in relation to council tax arrears. From 31st July 2002 no bills or any other correspondence has been forthcoming with regards to this matter. We find it absolutely outrageous that the apparent first port of call for the council with regards to this matter is recourse to a debt recovery company.

 

2. With regards to the claim for council tax against Miss. Lxxxxx for the period outlined above; Mrs. Axxxxx Mxxxxxxx contends that the council tax was included in the rent which she paid to her landlord Mr. XXXXX. However, on contacting your office it was confirmed to Mrs. Mxxxxxxx that Mr XXXXX had been allowed to transfer liability without any evidence, such as the tenancy agreement. Mrs. Mxxxxxxx contends that this is unfair, as she was not approached at the time to contest this matter.

 

Therefore it is my contention that Mrs. Mxxxxxxx [formerly Miss. Lxxxxx] has been wrongly made responsible for a substantial sum of £3068.54 of council tax arrears without even being made aware of the alleged liability. Furthermore the first time that Mrs. Mxxxxx had been made aware of her alleged liability for these arrears is some 6 years and 2 months after first moving into those premises.

 

It is our contention that the lack of dealing with this matter till several years after the tenant had vacated the property is nothing less than maladministration causing injustice, therefore we will be making a complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman on this basis should your response not be satisfactory.

 

Furthermore, should your response not be to our satisfaction, we will be contacting our MP and also be making sure that this matter is publicized in the papers.

 

I should advise that should any bailiff's be sent to our current address, we will be reporting the matter to the Office of Fair Trading as the account is in dispute thus bailiff's have no right to try and enforce the debt. This will also reflect badly on the Council. I demand that in your response you confirm that the file has been withdrawn from the bailiff's.

 

Finally, I demand that all responses must be in writing. I expect a satisfactory response within 28 days.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Responses:

 

1. Re: "At no time did Miss Lxxxxx agree to accept liability for the council tax on the property." You cannot accept or refuse liability for council tax. Council tax is an automatic liability. This sentence therefore doesn't make sense.

2. The Valuation Tribunal deals with problems on valuing properties for council tax, not problems with liability issues!

3. Your Councilor is part of the Council, so complaining to him/her would be pretty much useless in my opinion.

4. Your wife must sign the letter as they cannot deal with you without her express written permission.

 

Also I need to stop the baliff from returning how do I do that????? I want to stop incurring anymore charges

The account is in dispute so bailiff's are not allowed to try and enforce it. Furthermore, they can certainly not add any such charges to the "debt" as you had never know about it. Whatever you do, do NOT let them in!

Edited October 10, 2008 by legalpickle
removal of names & slight changes

[JamesAndAmy]

LP

 

You are a star and we reallly appreciate all of your help and advice. It has been invaluable. I will of course keep the forum updated with developments.