Passing on a debt?

[blahblah1]

Hi,

 

I am posting on behalf of my dad. He recently retired and with his nice lump sum for his pension he went onto ebay and brought a sailing boat. He went to see it, paid the man all very happy.

 

Then when he went up to move the boat from the place where it is moored to his own boat club, they told him they were not going to let the boat go until the £500 debt was paid on it fee's from the previous owner.

 

Are they allowed to do this? Doesn't seem very fair that the old owner didn't pay the mooring fees so my dad now has to?

[MrShed]

Unless the mooring fees were explicitly secured against the boat, then they have no basis.

 

You should point out to them that if they continue to withhold HIS property against his will, then this could be construed as theft, and that any contract is with the previous owner.

[Chesterexpress]

You will normally find that any mooring agreement has a clause allowing the marina to impose a lien on the boat for unpaid mooring fees. I suggest your father contacts the seller in writing giving them 7 days to pay the outstanding debt and that if it remains unpaid after this time he will issue a county court claim against the seller.

[blahblah1]

So it is the seller that he has to arguw it with not the boat people?

[MrShed]

In the first instance, I think you need to speak to the mooring people, as before you can even begin to pursue the seller ,you need to establish that the mooring people have a legal right to withhold the property - this can only be done by seeing the contract for the mooring.

[Chesterexpress]

The problem is that the people who own the moorings, are not obliged to divulge any information regarding the contract, however they can show you a standard contract. Which no doubt will have the right of lien written in it. As far as they know, you could be in collusion with the person who owes them money, pretending to have purchased the boat in order to move it without paying monies owed. Therefore it won't do you any harm in talking to them and explaining your situation. I would also draft a letter to the seller and show this to the people who operate the moorings in order to show that your serious about pursuing the matter with the seller.

 

Unfortunately there are some devious people out there and it appears your seller is one of those people. Best of luck with it and hope it all gets sorted without the need for court action.

[blahblah1]

The boat people are not being very nice about this at all and they are still adding to the bill even though they wont let my dad take the boat!

 

They did send my dad a copy of a standard contract and also a copy of the invoice which is made out to the original owner.

 

Is he going to have to pay this then and chase the original owner? Or is there any way he could get the boat company to see it's not his debt? Seems very unfair

[Chesterexpress]

What does the contract say with regard to right of lien for unpaid mooring fees?

[blahblah1]

"all charges are payable in advance unless otherwise arranged and no vessels or other property may be removed from the yard until all outstanding accounts have been paid. The company is entitled to exercise a general lien on customer property including vessels and has the right to dispose of such property"

[mcjohnson]

One could argue the previous owner is the customer of the boatyard, not your father - and therefore they have no right to withold your father's property. The dispute is between the boatyard / marina and the previous owner.

 

Are there any clauses regarding the transfer of ownership?

[blahblah1]

Nothing in this contract at all!

 

Should I write them a letter saying something along those lines!

[Chesterexpress]

"all charges are payable in advance unless otherwise arranged and no vessels or other property may be removed from the yard until all outstanding accounts have been paid. The company is entitled to exercise a general lien on customer property including vessels and has the right to dispose of such property"

 

Therein lies your answer, they are perfectly within their rights to keep the boat until the debt is cleared as it appears that they have exercised their right of lien. I would suggest that your father enters into negotiation with the moorings regarding a settlement figure in order to release the boat. He will then have to go after the seller for recompense.

 

Has he had any communications with the seller regarding this?

[blahblah1]

The seller is just ignoring him he only has a mobile number and email on ebay.

[MrShed]

Hang on - he bought a boat with no other contact details than mobile number and email?!?

[mcjohnson]

The debt is based on the customer, not the boat - IMO the boatyard have no right, particularly with no clauses covering this, to retain your fathers property as he has not entered into any agreement with them.

 

I would try and be as amicable as possible; but I am pretty certain the debt is against the customer that entered into the agreement.

[blahblah1]

He contacted the guy on ebay then went up to see the boat. He then brought it from him. I don't know what exactly was said as I wasn't there but I assume the sellers address wasn't discussed. although thinking about it I'm sure the boat yard will have it.

 

The seller isn't answering any emails or phone calls though.

[blahblah1]

Thanks, I'll tell him to try speaking to the boat yard again. I do think it is unreasonable to hold my dad responsable for someone elses debt.

Edited September 17, 2008 by blahblah1
sent the reply before it was finished

[MrShed]

I agree blah blah - wholly unreasonable. Unfortunately I do not know anything about liens, so cannt disagree with Chester above - all I would say is that his interpretation of it would seem to directly contradict contract law. But as I said, I cannot possibly comment any more definitively.

[Chesterexpress]

It may seem unreasonable, however it is legal and as I pointed out in post 6, it would be easy for someone to say they had purchased something in order to remove it without the original debt being paid. Garages often refuse to allow vehicles to be removed until invoices have been paid, solicitors etc. will not release documents etc. until invoices have been settled, they all do this under right of lien.

 

I find it incredulous that anyone would purchase something like this without checking right of ownership etc. and without the sellers address this would be nigh impossible. How much did your father pay for this boat?

[blahblah1]

£900 he must have proved he owned the boat. Like I said I wasn't there when he actually brought it so do not know exactly but he knew nothing about these fees when he brought the boat.

[Chesterexpress]

On the invoice they have provided, does it give the sellers address? If not ask the boatyard if they can provide it in order that your father can pursue the seller.

[blahblah1]

They put my dads address on the invoice which showed missed payments from months ago before he brought it.

 

So he has to pay this then and try to get it back from the seller instead?

Poo!