PCN for Residents Permit area with no bay markings

[andrew8686]

Hi, I was hoping someone could offer me some advice. I got a PCN for parking in a residents permit area in Leeds yesterday but the area where we parked didn't have any bays marked or anything on the road itself. The road that we turned off had large signs saying 'Permit Zone' and there were yellow cones and yellow lines all the way up the street but when we turned off on to a smaller street we couldn't see anything so we parked up figuring that it was alright. When we came back and found a parking ticket we had a look up the street also found that there were small blue signs saying 'Permit zone' ever 15 metres or so on alternate sides of the street (there wasn't one by our car) so I accept that we were in fact in a permit zone but do you think we have any chance of appealing it? We only parked there because we were avoiding the area with the large signs, yellow cones and yellow lines and thought that we were parking legally. Also, most other resident permit areas that I know of in Leeds have white bays marked out as well as the signs. Do you think I've got a case?

 

Thanks in advance for your help,

 

Andrew

[Guest Ting]

Edit

Edited September 3, 2008 by Ting
wrong forum

[Guest Ting]

Absolutely!

 

Got pics?

 

Scan of the PCN - All of it, always useful.

 

Leeds notorious for duff bays - but none at all ? wow.

-

[andrew8686]

Ah ok, that sounds good, I've got a few good pictures but I can't seem to work out how to post them in the message at the moment (it says I'm not allowed to under posting rules, maybe because I only joined today?), I'll try and stick them up in the morning once I've figured out how to go about doing it.

[Michael Browne]

Yes you have to make 5 posts before you can do that.

Here's how;

 

Scan it into your computer and open it in Paint or similar program. Edit out the personal information and save it

 

Open an a/c on Photobucket, (here: Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket ), download the file of your scan from your computer onto Photobucket and then post the link from Photobucket in your thread here.

 

See how to in section 1.16 (Attach Documents) here:

How Do I....? A Dummies Guide to the Forum

[andrew8686]

Ah ok, thanks for that Michael I will get on to that now.

[andrew8686]

Thanks for that Michael.

 

So basically, the first two photos show where we parked (if you look up the street in the first one you can see a lamp post, which was where the nearest 'permit holders only' sign was on our side of the road) and the second one is just from the other side to show that there was no sign there.

 

 

And then I took these other two just to show the contrast between the area we parked and got a ticket and the road next to it which was so clearly signposted and marked which we avoided:

 

 

The PCN itself claims it's a Code 12 for parking in residents or shared parking place without a valid permit. Just looking at these pictures now makes it all seem a bit more ridiculous...haha, i probably shouldn't think about it, it just makes me a bit more annoyed about it!

 

Thanks again,

 

Andrew

[Guest Ting]

Ooooerr.

 

The signs are irrelevant if there are no markings on the road. You haven't actually shown the sign but if it's as expected then can only be used with the relevant bay marking on the road. This is specified in the Traffic Signs General Regulations and Directions 2002.

 

There are a few cases, normally preservation areas, where this does not apply and special dispensation is granted. Even then, the need to make restrictions clear has been succesfully argued. I'm thinking specifically of Edinburgh. Can't see anything like that applying here.

 

Get a pic of the sign for me if you can. Then I'll link you to the specific part of legislation.

-

[andrew8686]

It's not a great pic but there's the sign... it basically is just a white 'p' on a blue background and says 'Permit Holders Only'.

 

 

That would be great if you know of any legislation specifically related to it, since all the official websites keep stressing that 'I didn't see the sign' is not a valid excuse, so it'd be good to have something to back it all up. And I think we can be fairly sure this isn't a preservation area, and there's definitely no sign posts around if it is.

[Guest Ting]

Can't see anything in that tiny picture!

 

From your description it's a basic 660 sign.

One of these.

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/02311354.gif

Sorry funny borders, IT numpty trying to paste!

 

Ok, from The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

Direction 24 (1) below. Item 14 of the table.

 

Items a, b, c on the right hand side of the table are all basic parking bay markings. Yours seem to be, errr, missing?

 

24. - (1) Except where it is placed to indicate the effect of a temporary statutory provision and subject to paragraph (2), a sign shown in a diagram specified in column (2) of an item in the Table shall not be placed except -

 

(a) on or near the side of a road; and

(b) in conjunction with, and on the same side of the road as, a road marking which is shown in a diagram and is in the form (if any) indicated in column (3) of that item.

 

14. 660 (a) 1028.3 (when varied to indicate "LARGE OR SLOW VEHICLES ONLY");

(b) 1028.4, 1032 or 1033 in each case when indicating "DOCTOR" or when no legend appears; or

© 1028.4 when varied to indicate "PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY"

Edited September 4, 2008 by Ting

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Road markings are signs.

Not seeing the signs is a valid excuse if the signs are not there.

I would tick that the contravention did not occur, the penalty exceeds the relevant amount and that there has been a proceedural impropriety.

[andrew8686]

I sent my appeal off yesterday so I'm just waiting to hear the result now, thanks for your help both of you, especially you Ting. To be honest I really think that since I've included all the relevant sections quoted from the legislation, I don't see how they could get away with not rescinding this ticket. Thanks again, I will let you know how I get on!