Been conned and PayPal are not helping, how do I get my money back?

[Akira181]

I bought something from an online shop but it has arrived faulty. The item doesn't do anything other than power up. I paid with a Visa Debit card from the Bank of Scotland via Paypal.

 

The website offered a 28 day guarantee so I asked for the problem to be rectified. But with the packaged instructions, there was a "28 day trial period" not mentioned anywhere on the site, and the website refused to do anything until the 28 days was over.

 

Basically the item doesn't work and 6 days later (or 4 working ones) I requested a full refund under the Distance Selling Act and asked for a return address. From this point on, the website started ignoring all my emails.

 

I raised the dispute with PayPal, and when I requested a return address, the seller ignored the messages again. And shockingly, PayPal sided with the seller saying

As stated in

our User Agreement, the claims process only applies to the delivery of

goods. It does not apply to complaints about the attributes or quality of

goods received. Therefore, we are unable to reverse this transaction or

issue a refund.

 

So even though the seller is clearly fraudulent, PayPal don't care if you buy something and they send you junk. As long as you receive anything, they're satisfied and hide behind their fine print.

 

I've tried calling my bank regarding a chargeback and they've done much the same, saying that I received the goods so it's not their concern if it is faulty.

 

Is there anything I can do to get my money back?

[Conniff]

As you have already made a refund request under the distance selling regulations (within 7 working days from the day after receipt of goods), the process is still running.

 

Can you give me a link to the item or the seller please Akira - in a pm will do if you don't want to put it into the forum - and then I can do some more checks on the legality if the seller.

 

P.S.

Don't worry about the warranty, that has nothing to do with it, that is just an extra tagged on by the seller and has no bearing whatsoever on the statutes laid down to protect you.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Conniff
added a missing word

[Conniff]

I have tracked down a name and an address in Gloucester, I also have a mobile telephone number and an email address, and will pm them to you, but would suggest that you don't try to contact him just yet.

 

I am trying to find the IP address at the moment, but it has been made more difficult because he has used a free website service and there are some proxy servers in between him and the domaim, but I should be able to trace it.

 

I have some linking names which on first appearance seem to be aliases of the same person which I will chase up and see if I can come up with an address of where they live and see if they tie into each other.

 

At this stage I feel confident enough that they will not have covered their track properly and we should be able to narrow it down considerably, but you will have to bear with me until I have exhausted all I can do.

 

In the mean time Akira I would suggest that you pop into your local police station and report this as a con site, I wouldn't expect them to be able to do much, but it will get you a log number which you can take to the bank and ask them again to do a chargeback on your debit card (it can be done just as on credit cards), and see if they will now do it for you.

Edited June 12, 2008 by Conniff

[Esio Trot]

Question: Been conned and PayPal are not helping, how do I get my money back?

 

Answer: If you rely on Paypal or ebay, you will have great difficulty. Although only my opinion, I believe that they are not the least bit interested in resolving disputes: it does nothing for their bottom line.

[IdaInFife]

Hi,

 

When you buying something with paypal you are only covered for Item Not rec'd. Only if you buy from an ebay transaction you are covered for Not as Described

 

I'm glad you have 'sniffer' Conniff on the case....

[Conniff]

I have managed to get three names, an email address and a mail address in Gloucester and a phone number.

They have been very clever not to use paid for services and websites so that bit is harder to crack.

 

I think we have worked out a plan of attack if Akira wants to give it a go.

[IdaInFife]

Chargeback

 

A chargeback is where a cardholder queries or disputes a transaction, with their card issuer and the business who took the money from the card will be requested to pay it back by their acquiring bank. The reason for this query could be for various different reasons such as:

• The cardholder claims that the goods have been paid for but not reveived by them.
  
• The cardholder claims that the goods have been received but are damaged.
  
• The cardholder claims that the goods have been received but are not as described when the transaction took place.
  
• The cardholder claims that they neither participated in or authorised the transaction. This would usually result in a chargeback due to the card being fraudulently
  

Copied from the Visa site.

 

Banks sometimes say you can only do a chargeback if goods not rec'd - Wrong

Edited June 13, 2008 by IdaInFife
fat fingers

[Akira181]

That's interesting IdaInFife. I called Bank of Scotland and they said the item being broken or not as described is a Trading Standards issue and not their problem.

 

Is there any way I can call up and get them to issue the chargeback by quoting the visa site?

 

Does the LBA thing in your sig apply to this situation?

Edited June 13, 2008 by Akira181

[IdaInFife]

You nned to get hold of someone from the bank of scotland that know what they are talking about. Alot of the cashiers are not aware of this and also bank managers.

 

I am assuming this transaction was more than £100?

 

Call them up ans ask for contact details for the department that deals with chargebacks ( i used to have the details as used them myself and can't find them but will keep looking)

 

they should at least be sending a claim form but they will only help you if you can show you have tried to get your casback or replacement from the supplier i.e. copies of letter sent

 

Idax

[Akira181]

Actually, the transaction was for £99.90. That going to be a problem?

 

All I've done is send emails and as soon as I mentioned a refund or return address, he started ignoring me.

[IdaInFife]

Ok, with the help on Conniff you really need to get letters sent to a reg address.

 

Writing to them asking for replacement or refund with your reasons giving them 14 days etc.

 

But I think Conniff may have a plan and I think he is waiting for you to let him know if you want to go ahead.

 

Idax

[IdaInFife]

oh and I would go with sniffer Conniff

[Akira181]

Conniff's been a great help and his tracking skills are rather impressive to say the least but we've agreed that since I'm entitled to a chargeback, that is my easiest option at the moment.

 

The main problem is that I've never actually pursued a chargeback before so I don't know what I need to do. I've got copies of emails where I told him it was broken and asked for a refund, which he ignored. I've got the PayPal dispute logs where I asked for a refund under the Distance Selling Act and for a Return Address, which was also ignored. I also have the Royal Mail tracking number and delivery date.

 

Is that enough for me to file a claim? Since I don't have a confirmed address, only the PO Box address sniffer Conniff found, I cannot send letters.

 

Also, since very few people in the bank understand the Visa chargeback T&C's, what if they claim I am charging back PayPal and not the seller?

[JonCris]

The Post Office are required to give you the full postal address if requested. Phone their PO box no. department

 

Also if paypal won't pay ball contact your card supplier & ask them to reverse the payment. Paypal won't like it but who cares. As for the bank you've been ripped off & want your money back.

 

paypal can't really complain if they don't offer the facility to recall payment after delivery of none working goods

[Akira181]

I'm wanting to contact my bank and tell them to reverse the payment, but the problem is that aren't they just going to claim I'm trying to chargeback PayPal and not the fraudulent seller?

 

I've called them once and the person on the phone just said that doesn't fall under Visa chargeback rights, receiving a broken item, but it clearly does. Also, the bank ATM machine ate my card yesterday for no reason. Bank of Scotland are really starting to annoy me.

[WWOW]

 

Is there anything I can do to get my money back?

 

A lesson learned, always pay PayPal with a credit card.

 

PayPal bully users into not using credit otherwise liability passes to them if goods are not fit for the purpose or the seller fails to supply the goods according to contract.

 

Paypal deliberately place themselves outside the remit of the UK civil claims procedure by head-quartering themselves abroad.

 

I'm afraid Paypal is best avoided unless you are paying with a credit card. You could have recovered your money with a simple chargeback.

[JonCris]

WWOW I believe the OP still can as Visa debit cards have the same facility for reversal as other credit cards.

[Akira181]

A lesson learned, always pay PayPal with a credit card.

 

PayPal bully users into not using credit otherwise liability passes to them if goods are not fit for the purpose or the seller fails to supply the goods according to contract.

 

Paypal deliberately place themselves outside the remit of the UK civil claims procedure by head-quartering themselves abroad.

 

I'm afraid Paypal is best avoided unless you are paying with a credit card. You could have recovered your money with a simple chargeback.

 

I use a Visa Debit card so I have the same chargeback facilities. Even though PayPal HQ is abroad, they still have to have a UK trading address, which makes then remit to the UK civil claims procedure. I believe their address is

 

Hotham House

1 Heron House

Richmond Upon Thames

Surrey

TW9 1EJ

GB

 

Still though, even if I get the bank to agree to give me a chargeback, won't paypal just bill my account the chargeback amount?

[WWOW]

WWOW I believe the OP still can as Visa debit cards have the same facility for reversal as other credit cards.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post.

 

When I say chargeback, I was referring to a refund under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 where a credit lender is jointly liable for goods purchased under a regulated credit agreement not fit for the purpose they're intended.

 

This doesn't apply to debit cards. Banks have a discretion whether they reverse a transaction, and they'll always avoid getting into disputes between merchant and consumer.

 

I have a feeling a civil proceeding against Paypal will fail. Paypal may pronounce themselves out of jurisdiction, and there's no credit transaction involved and thus no liability resides with Paypal.

 

A year ago I had a failed eBay transaction & both the seller and eBay became automitous in behaviour when managing their dispute resolution procedures. I recovered the money with a chargeback, paypal got shirty, but they're fully aware of the risks when handling credit card payments for reward.

[IdaInFife]

If you were to get a chargeback on not as described i.e. faulty, then paypal will pass the deficit to your seller.

[Akira181]

I see. How likely is it that the bank will claim that I'm trying to chargeback PayPal and not the seller?

 

The way I see it is that I'm paying paypal for a service of transferring my money and ensuring safe delivery, the latter which has not happened, since they are a consumer service and not a bank. Will this stand in a chargeback argument?

[IdaInFife]

You used paypal as a processing payment site ( can't find the right words but i think you'll know what I mean) rather making a purchase on ebay and as you have proof you tried to get paypal involved but they wouldn't as they were merely processing your payment they cannot and will not take any action as they do not offer any other protection than INR as this was not an ebay sale.

 

You really need to try and get the claim form and then that way at least the claim form will be sent to the right people.

[Akira181]

Got held up at work today and the bank closed before i could get there. I'll go in tomorrow morning and explain my situation to the bank. Even if they say no, I'll at least ask for the claim form so I can try.

[IdaInFife]

Did you get the claim form?

 

 

Idax

[Akira181]

Went in yesterday and there wasn't anyone in that could deal with my complaint so I went in again today.

 

Spoke to a manager and she insisted that Visa Debit cards don't have a chargeback and I told her the Visa website says different and that I've spent the past few days researching this.

 

She said there wasn't a form for it and filled in a Debit Card (Point of Sale) Transaction Query form. She said it can take anywhere up to 3 months for me to MAYBE get my money back.

 

I asked for a copy but she wouldn't give me one and she said there isn't a generic chargeback form.

 

I don't think she knew entirely what she was doing and I'm not keen on waiting 3 months to see whether or not I even get anything back. She recommended that I push paypal for an address, return the item there, and then take it to a small claims court if need be.

 

Is there anything else I can do?