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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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H.O.L Test case appeal. Judgement Declared. ***See Announcements***


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ukaviator,

 

What this judgement/opinion in the context of EU Law and therefore National Laws of the Member States (irrespective of whether they be implemented or not in relation to the time that it OUGHT to have been implemented within that Member States own domestic laws according to EU Regulations for Implementation) is saying;

 

..Is that, taking 26 and 28 together;

 

...That sometimes in contracts where there exists an unfair term whatever that term may be...the fact that the weaker party/consumer contracts to it ...he is in an EVEN FURTHER impossible position to NOT ONLY dispute that unfair term per se...but when that same contract subjects him/her to the Courts' of ANOTHER 'GEOSPATIAL' JURISDICTION in this instance the seller/commercial businesses' place of business which could be miles away or NOW that we are of one SINGLE MARKET possibly even in another Member State that this very cost of travelling to seek justice in itself could be a heavier and more expensive financial burden than the adverse cost or prejudice the term itself would impose thereby discouraging consumers from taking up the protection that 93/EEC/13 was supposed to provide in the first place and hence resulting in a significant impairment in the rights and obligations of the consumer/weaker contracting party. In other words put another way ACCESS TO JUSTICE would be denied by the inclusion of an unfair ' Geospatial jurisdiction clause'.

 

The answers given at the bottom seem to suggest that National Court's 'of their own motion' would strike out this clause BEFORE the consumer would contest the 'other unfair term'.

 

It appears that National Court's are well aware that this 'Geospatial jurisdiction' clause is just another ruse to deter the weaker party in the weaker bargaining position to bring the case in the first place.

 

And so as long as the National Courts interpret the Directive as far as possible regarding the 'non-jurisdictional' unfair term (the unfair term at the substance of the contract) in accordance with the Treaty's purpose and objectives then THEY should 'have JURISDICTION to 'oust the(Geospatial) jurisdiction clause' without the pleading nor presence of the

weaker party which could be more costly for the above reasons.

 

That is the sense in which I understood from reading above link.....I may be wrong but EU Law is broad and is subject to differing interpretation.However when I studied at University how to interpret this type of law it was to be interpreted in its entire context context and with the application of common sense.

 

How this applies to this thread and what you meant by bringing this up I leave open for further interpretation and contribution from other much well informed cagger

 

Lord Woolf when streamlining the Civil Justice System back in 1996 with regards to Access,Cost,Complexity of the Justice system no doubt was aware of the new directives that were already in existence and against this framework our National Courts already 'OF THEIR OWN MOTION' by way of practice directions and CPR can transfer a case instituted by a claimant from that claimants home town court to a court in the home town of the defendant automatically where that defendant is an individual and the claimant is a financial institution thus overcoming any barrier that distance may cause to defendant in terms of costs especially in claims involving modest sums thereby discouraging the defendant from implementing his rights which was not the purpose for Reform of the Civil Justice Systerm in the first place..ACCESS to Justice for all was one of the fundamental principles.

 

Rgds

 

Means2anend:)

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TheyrCriminals,

I reckon that, even allowing for new pocs, we'll have enough 'meat' to really have a telling effect on the banks. I concur with much earlier statements that the SCOJ has been instrumental in clearing a lot of 'trees' to expose a much larger 'wood'.

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s.140A CCA 1974 (amended by the 2006 Act)

 

 

 

The Penalty argument is out of the window, suggest you re-read the posts earlier about that so we aren't repeating info. Essentially, the OFT didn't appeal the issue, so you probably can't bring this in your claim now.

 

 

 

 

Hi Car

 

Not sure how to paste my original post in but........ you've lost me with your response.

 

This was not raising a question of going over old ground regarding historical penalty cases, it was more a back door approach to test the unfair relationship issue by applying S.140

 

How does the bank prove a 'fair price' is set without releasing detailed costs.

 

Must admit its only going to be useful for recent charges (if at all), I included it in my claim back in 2008 ....... then again, I included every argument I could find at the time - optimistic as ever :p, as yet I've seen no defence raised around this point.

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Hi Car

 

Not sure how to paste my original post in but........ you've lost me with your response.

 

Original post;

 

Has anybody tried a different route to test fairness?

 

The penalty action from 2006 won significant refunds on the basis that the banks did not want to defend due to disproportionate charges levied.

 

How can I as an individual ask a district judge to test the fairness of creditor/debtor relationship without all parties being privy to the operating costs, forecast default revenue, number of defaulted accounts, number of delinquent accounts etc etc?

 

I'm sure its privileged info that the banks will contest cannot be brought into evidence, but by doing so they are not allowing a fair test to be brought at hearing.

 

This was not raising a question of going over old ground regarding historical penalty cases, it was more a back door approach to test the unfair relationship issue by applying S.140

 

How does the bank prove a 'fair price' is set without releasing detailed costs.

 

Must admit its only going to be useful for recent charges (if at all), I included it in my claim back in 2008 ....... then again, I included every argument I could find at the time - optimistic as ever :p, as yet I've seen no defence raised around this point.

 

Ah, ok, with you now, but the original post read like the penalty issues were being looked at from a perspective that had already been dealt with.

 

The issue with that argument, is that you'll need to show an unfair relationship that brings about unfair charges being applied, as the price paid (which is what the Courts deem these challenges as :rolleyes:) probably can't be challenged for fairness in that way. Certainly not under the UTCCR, and the CCA arguments are still being prepared/progressed, so that might change, however.

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Is a shame we cannot use the moral argument, after all thats what the financial industry use and back up by many county courts.

 

Seems what is good for one is not good for the other.

 

PF

Finally if you succeed with your claim please consider a donation to consumer action group as those donations keep this site alive.

 R.I.P BOB aka ROOSTER-UK you have always been a Gent on these boards and you will be remembered for that.

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Dont wont to off topic, however.

 

My wife has her own account and i give her money for the month plus she gets child benefits.

 

She paid for some petrol by debit card on 24th resulting in a letter a week later saying she was overdrawn £8.29 resulting in a £22 charge for overdraft which another £22 to be levied if not brought back credit within 5 working days.

 

Now my wife is not very fiscally minded, didnt know she had an overdraft (nor did i) ..... some find of mailshot last year app,

 

I rang up and gave them a hard time and asked to write and explain:

 

 

  • where is the overdraft agreement
  • why did they authorise the card
  • is a charge of £22 fair and ethical .... 256% more than the actual amouot of overdraft.
  • I paid the £50 to bring account back into credit and then discovered that £44 of charges would be applied ... now reduced to £22.

All i can say is bloody hell

 

ST

RBS/Triton - Gone Away No CCA

RBS/Moorcroft - Gone way No CCA

RBS/AIC - Gone Away No CCA

RBS/Intrum - Gone Away No CCA

RBS/Regal - Gone Away

 

Cahoot/Link - CCA in Dispute

 

Capital One - Settled

 

Lloyds Bank - Awaiting Outcome from Supreme Court Hearing.

 

Lloyds Credit Credit - Repayment Plan

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No, Speedtrip, it isn't fair or ethical. I got charged £22 for being £2.36 overdrawn for five hours. They wouldn't move on it at all.

 

The 'reserve' was brought in and they opted us in. I am not allowed an overdraft, probably because I've got credit card accounts in dispute with them, but I can borrow £250 at £22 a week. This is something I want to include in whatever petition/demonstration we decide on.

 

If I opt out they say I may not be allowed to opt in, and there may be, and have been, times when I have needed that reserve just to survive. It is a wicked charge - just another example of the banks' usury.

 

If you query it you will probably get some nasty little jobsworth in her 20s telling you that if you "choose" to use the facility, you have to pay for it. No-one would "choose" to use it, but some of us need to, and just have to.

 

DD

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'Desperate Daniella' - You made me smile however I can add to what you can expect at the other end of the phone.

Standard accounts for HSBC have main services from India (main)/Malaysia/Phillipines. When I explained my problems the gentleman said he would like to clarify some items on my statement and I agreed (back in March now).

He continued, 'Can you tell me what this large amount paid out refers to, it is marked as "Rent"?' I sat in silence as he ran off other things as 'Council Tax', '3 Valleys Water', 'Atlantic Gas', 'Atlantic Electric' and then to top it all, 'Tesco Stores'. I sat in disbelief trying in desperation to hold back my temper. Need I say more?

....this is the average type of person one gets!

 

Michael

When I was young I thought that money was the most important thing in life; now that I am old I know that it is. (Oscar Wilde)

--I like to be helpful wherever possible however I'm not qualified in this field. I do consider carefully anything important (normally from personal experience) however please understand that any actions taken are at your own risk--

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Well i guess who "they are" now.

 

The Call Centre transferred me to Complaints without any explantion so i had to go through the whole story again.

 

I did suggest that if they dont recredit the account then i would like a letter justifying the charge and how its worked out as 256% levy charge on £8.29 is staggering.

 

She explained this service was introduced to pay for essential bills like mortgages so payments arent missed.

 

I pay the mortgage not my wife.

 

ST:(

 

No, Speedtrip, it isn't fair or ethical. I got charged £22 for being £2.36 overdrawn for five hours. They wouldn't move on it at all.

 

The 'reserve' was brought in and they opted us in. I am not allowed an overdraft, probably because I've got credit card accounts in dispute with them, but I can borrow £250 at £22 a week. This is something I want to include in whatever petition/demonstration we decide on.

 

If I opt out they say I may not be allowed to opt in, and there may be, and have been, times when I have needed that reserve just to survive. It is a wicked charge - just another example of the banks' usury.

 

If you query it you will probably get some nasty little jobsworth in her 20s telling you that if you "choose" to use the facility, you have to pay for it. No-one would "choose" to use it, but some of us need to, and just have to.

 

DD

RBS/Triton - Gone Away No CCA

RBS/Moorcroft - Gone way No CCA

RBS/AIC - Gone Away No CCA

RBS/Intrum - Gone Away No CCA

RBS/Regal - Gone Away

 

Cahoot/Link - CCA in Dispute

 

Capital One - Settled

 

Lloyds Bank - Awaiting Outcome from Supreme Court Hearing.

 

Lloyds Credit Credit - Repayment Plan

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Why can't they pay for call centre staff in this country?

 

Because the extra they'd have to pay would affect their bonuses!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

 

 

Average anual salary India (this type of work) £ 1500.00 (guess)

Average anual salary UK (this type of work) £15,000.00

 

There was rumour that many Indian call centre staff were rather unhappy at the way they were spoken to by UK customers.:rolleyes: I wonder why?!

 

Michael

When I was young I thought that money was the most important thing in life; now that I am old I know that it is. (Oscar Wilde)

--I like to be helpful wherever possible however I'm not qualified in this field. I do consider carefully anything important (normally from personal experience) however please understand that any actions taken are at your own risk--

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Average anual salary India (this type of work) £ 1500.00 (guess)

Average anual salary UK (this type of work) £15,000.00

 

There was rumour that many Indian call centre staff were rather unhappy at the way they were spoken to by UK customers.:rolleyes: I wonder why?!

 

Michael

 

Very off topic, (;)) but aren't companies bringing this work BACK to the UK due to consumer demands to have UK work based in the UK? :eek:

 

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Very off topic, (;)) but aren't companies bringing this work BACK to the UK due to consumer demands to have UK work based in the UK? :eek:

 

 

Yes, way off topic BUT the banks will of course have to increase their charges to compensate if this all goes through! :rolleyes:

 

Michael

When I was young I thought that money was the most important thing in life; now that I am old I know that it is. (Oscar Wilde)

--I like to be helpful wherever possible however I'm not qualified in this field. I do consider carefully anything important (normally from personal experience) however please understand that any actions taken are at your own risk--

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Why can't they pay for call centre staff in this country?

 

Because the extra they'd have to pay would affect their bonuses!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

 

On another note go to www.youtube.com and type in "Bankaid". This is a classic act and you must see it.

 

On a more serious note, you are correct to advise all calls to be logged where banks are concerned.

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Hi all, Can anyone tell me if any guidance has been issued yet on what to do now?Our cases are with the FOS and we haven't heard either from them or the banks.is the case really dead in the water?

Much obliged x

 

I see that Martyn Lewis on www.moneysavingexpert.co.uk has employed a barrister to study the case. First indications are that the CCA 1974 has a part in it where the banks have to prove fairness on charges but he is saying hold off until this study has been done but information is going to be made available very shortly. They are going to work out template letters as well.

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Very off topic, (;)) but aren't companies bringing this work BACK to the UK due to consumer demands to have UK work based in the UK? :eek:

 

 

I would hazard a guess that it's more likely down to security reasons than the banks trying to placate their customers.

 

When have the banking institutes ever put their customers first............... NEVER.

 

I may be wrong and even cynical, but I think that that they are attempting to reduce their fraud liabillities more than anything......... Who knows ?...

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Any charge that cannot be justified is unfair to the consumer and if this action puts the consumer at a dissadvantage and the only course of action is to take it to court then it can only be termed as an Unfair Term

..I have to reply to banks letter saying their charges are fine, does the above make sense many thanks

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Ibsys

ML and the other campaigning bodies-despite any articles you might have read it is NOT ML playing the Lone Ranger (much as he might like to give that impression on occasion)

 

Whilst I read things, I also cross check things. I see a position which is untenable with the banks and the OFT, the FSA and generally the FOS all in league with each other and the public has been badly let down while the banks sit on everything. I see hardship among people and business and losses due to banks and no automatic protection. Never take anything on first value.

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Whilst I read things, I also cross check things. I see a position which is untenable with the banks and the OFT, the FSA and generally the FOS all in league with each other and the public has been badly let down while the banks sit on everything. I see hardship among people and business and losses due to banks and no automatic protection. Never take anything on first value.

 

Have you read the lending code section 9 re hardship?

.

FSA Waiver on Bank Charges:http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Doing/Regulated/Notify/Waiver/pdf/dir_quart_0709.pdf

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