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    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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H.O.L Test case appeal. Judgement Declared. ***See Announcements***


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Guest Puff

Bookworm,

 

I have had to log in as Puff because I am having problems with logging in under my BigBudgie username.

 

With regards to your earlier post.

 

Don't believe all the negative propaganda, this is what the Banks are trying to do to us.

 

After being at the CMC for two days and picking up on the ambience it's very easy to put a much more positive spin on things.

 

Come 7th and 8th July, the OFT's new QC, Jonathon Crow will wipe the floor with the Banks QC's ( have a look at his resume, that'll make you feel better ( http://www.4stonebuildings.com/members/9.html ) . We know that the UTCCR judgment will be applied to historic terms and when some of those historic terms are also confirmed as penalties under common law we will all be jumping up and down with joy again.

 

The OFT will publish the results of their market study within the next couple of weeks and their PCA report during July. The Banks appeal over the UTCCR aspects will be thrown out by the appeal Court in the Autumn ( thanks once again to Mr Crow ) and they will not be given permission to appeal the forthcoming decisions on historic terms.

 

The first "phase two" hearing will be held in the Autumn ( probably September ) and the Banks will put up a bit of a fight but will then capitulate and fall into line with the OFT's recommended resolution.

 

So please get your finger out and stop with the negativity !!!

 

Budgie

 

 

 

and just in case you doubt my predicitons here is what I posted ( on this thread ) the day before the CMC.

 

 

BigBudgie

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Join Date: Mar 2008

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icon1.gif Re: OFT v Banks - Round One to OFT

The stays are all on claims which are / were governed by historic terms and the Judge hasn't made a decision on those historic terms yet so there is no chance of stays being lifted tomorrow.

 

Even if , by some miracle, he has had time to go through all the Banks historic terms I very much doubt if he will hand judgment down on these tomorrow. He might though set a date for doing so. After he eventually makes his decision known regarding the historic terms and assuming that things go our way then the Banks will have time to decide whether they wish to appeal on those decisions.

 

The Judge may actually issue some guidance to the County Courts regarding the stayed claims tomorrow. However I suspect it will only be that they should remain on hold at present.

 

The only glimmer of light we might have would be if the never ending delays can be turned to our advantage in that we can persuade the FSA to remove the waiver owing to the lack of progress being made in the test case.

 

Budgie

Last edited by BigBudgie; 21st May 2008 at 15:25.

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BigBudgie

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icon1.gif Re: OFT v Banks - Round One to OFT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookworm viewpost.gif

No, that's correct, but I suspect that what Spicey meant was that if the banks appeal the part they're not happy about (the UTCCR), then the OFT will be likely to appeal the not-a-penalty part, whereas if they don't, the OFT will be more likely to let things be as they are and concentrate on then establishing the unfairness of the charges as per their remit.

 

I very much doubt if the OFT will appeal the penalty aspect ( they were not actually seeking a declaration about this in their original POC anyway) the OFT may appeal the PIL judgment though. Although there isnt really anything for the OFT to gain by doing so as they got the declaration they actually wanted wrt UTCCR anyway. The OFT may just prefer to put all their effort into defending the UTCRR judgment should the Banks appeal that particular point.

 

Personally I would rather see the OFT concentrate on the Job in hand, defend against the appeal, forget the penalty and PIL aspects for present terms and get on with other things ( IE issue the bloomin reports into personal current accounts etc ) Some help for those of us with stayed claims ( IE Some good work by the OFT on the historical aspects would be also be extremely well received ).

 

Budgie

 

Last edited by BigBudgie; 21st May 2008 at 18:05.

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Bookworm,

 

(...)

 

So please get your finger out and stop with the negativity !!!

 

Budgie

There's no need to be vulgar (or inaccurate for that matter, my understanding of the above expression is that it means "don't be so lazy" and I fail to see the relevance of the epxression in this context. :rolleyes:).

 

"stop" with the negativity? Dear Puff/Budgie, whoever you are, if you had bothered to read previous posts of mine, you would know that this is one of the rare times where I have been despondent about this situation, and I believe that I am entitled to express my doubts and opinions on the subject.

 

As for the impeccable CV of the new QC, if you care to check the just as impeccable CV of the previous one, I think you'll find that it is no guarantee of success, if the lacklustre previous performance was anything to go by.

 

Please don't patronise me with the "Don't believe all the negative propaganda, this is what the Banks are trying to do to us." I haven't listened to anything my bank has to say on the subject of bank charges for a long time apart from when they say "Yes, we will settle in full", and it may surprise you that I am actually capable of forming the odd original thought or two by myself without being brainwashed by the very organisations I have been fighting for over 2 years. :razz:

 

Maybe it is merely battle fatigue, but yes, I am finding it hard to be optimistic at the moment. I really, really hope I am wrong, and I really, really hope that the consumer wins, I'm just not terribly hopeful about it right now.

 

Tom, when you say that the individual cases were not satisfactory, I think that the thousands of people who got their money back might beg to differ with you. Don't forget that, especially at the beginning, those cases were never ever going near a court anyway. It's only when the tide carried on rising that some cases did make it to court, and most of the time, by accident rather than by design.

 

Regardless of the above, wouldn't you have seen a well presented "real" case go to Mercantile rather than having this taken out of the consumers' hand altogether? Don't you think that there'll always be suspicions of done deals when a government agency gets together for consultations with the institutions prior to launching a test case with some of the issues pre-agreed? I know what I'd have preferred. :-(

 

As for the decision as to whether to appeal the penalty charge argument, it is quite possible to take it out of the OFT's hands. If you don't agree with it, include it in your reasons for your case, and appeal to the high court. You will lose, but this will give you an appeal to the appeal courts and ultimatly, the house of lords.
If I were Richard Branson or the Sultan of Brunei, I probably would... But even it I could, why should I, or anyone else for that matter? My understanding was that the OFT was supposed to be there to do the job for all consumers! :???: If they were not prepared to fight this to the death, why take the job on in the first place? See? That's where the doubts creep in...

 

But... i actually believe that for the current contracts, the judgement of the judge is actually likely to be correct. i think that any judgement other than that the historic terms included clauses that late payment was not a breach of contract would have a devistating effect on the banks, since it would invalidate huge numbers of county court judgements in my opinion.
Possibly, after all, they re-wrote those contracts quickly enough... It leaves the question of cloaking the penalty, and as I have said before, looking at the current T&Cs without looking FIRST at the historical ones (out of context, so to speak) and see the changes rewritten very suddently is like saying that the invasion of Poland caused WW2 and that if Poland hadn't been invaded, WW2 wouldn't have happened, and not looking at all the events that led to the invasion of Poland.

 

As for the invalidation of CCJ, I doubt it very much, as ultimately, there were very few judgments actually handed down, as very few cases ever made it to court for a judge to decide on, and again, most of them by default anyway, so the impact on decided cases would be minimal. On the other hand, one can only guess at what would happen to all those currently stuck in the system. :-(

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Hi Bookworm,

 

Profoundly off topic here but could you slightly elaborate on your thoughts that there was more to trigger World War 2 than just the invasion of Poland.

 

Many Thanks.

 

TheyrCriminals

Ask me again in the Bear Garden, I know this thread has gone OT many a time, but there are limits! :lol:
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Guest Puff

 

Originally Posted by Puff viewpost.gif

Bookworm,

(...)

So please get your finger out and stop with the negativity !!!

Budgie

 

There's no need to be vulgar (or inaccurate for that matter, my understanding of the above expression is that it means "don't be so lazy" and I fail to see the relevance of the epxression in this context. :rolleyes:).

 

"stop" with the negativity? Dear Puff/Budgie, whoever you are, if you had bothered to read previous posts of mine, you would know that this is one of the rare times where I have been despondent about this situation, and I believe that I am entitled to express my doubts and opinions on the subject.

 

I intended nothing vulgar in my post, and was not implying what I believe you may have interpreted.

 

To pull or to get your finger out is to hurry, to get a move on. This is a nautical saying and comes from the times of the Men'o'War. When the cannon were loaded a small amount of powder was poured into the ignition hole near the base of the weapon. In order to keep the powder secure before firing, a crew member pushed a finger into the hole. When the time came for ignition, the crewman was told to pull his finger out.

 

and yes I have read a significant number of your posts, not all 17k odd of them I must admit. However, my post was intended so as to put a more positive slant on matters. New members, reading your post could easily be led to believe that all hope of a successful reclaim of their charges was rapidly disappearing.

 

Budgie

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Tom, when you say that the individual cases were not satisfactory, I think that the thousands of people who got their money back might beg to differ with you.

 

Bookie, as I am sure you know, many more people were put off from reclaiming money through the complexity of the court process than ever reclaimed money. Many people in desperate need never even knew about the ability to reclaim, however hard sites like CAG put the word out. The amount of money reclaimed logged by ALL the penalty charge advice websites is insignificant compared to the 6 billion estimated that losing the test case would cost the banks, not to mention the 1.5 billion per year the banks are estimated to have at risk. CAG has official records of helping consumers reclaim £20 million. The actual amount reclaimed could easily be five times that, and it wouldn't even scratch the money that the banks make in a single month through penalty charges.

 

Now, I know that before the test case, most people were having their cases settled, after a great deal of (basically unnecessary) hastle... eventually... but individual small cases would never solve the underlying issues unless the banks took the matter to the high court.

 

and, if they did take it to the high court, precisely the same process we are now experiencing would occur... because the process is the way civil litigation works at this level. It's frustrating, and slow, but... we know that anyway.

 

The only difference is something like equality of arms exists between the OFT and the banks, whereas, if the banks wanted to they could have set up a scategoat to take the fall. Imagine a person in the fast track or multitrack against a £20 million pound legal team. There would not have been any justice, they would have been bankrupted before the case got to judgement... and the news would have spread.

 

 

Don't forget that, especially at the beginning, those cases were never ever going near a court anyway. It's only when the tide carried on rising that some cases did make it to court, and most of the time, by accident rather than by design.

 

 

I am aware of that, but eventually the banks would have been forced to take it to court. Either by accident or design. In which case, I think their policy would not have been based around legal argument, but absolutly financially destroying the poor sucker that was chosen

 

 

Regardless of the above, wouldn't you have seen a well presented "real" case go to Mercantile rather than having this taken out of the consumers' hand altogether? Don't you think that there'll always be suspicions of done deals when a government agency gets together for consultations with the institutions prior to launching a test case with some of the issues pre-agreed? I know what I'd have preferred. :-(

 

If I were Richard Branson or the Sultan of Brunei, I probably would... But even it I could, why should I, or anyone else for that matter? My understanding was that the OFT was supposed to be there to do the job for all consumers! :???: If they were not prepared to fight this to the death, why take the job on in the first place? See? That's where the doubts creep in...

 

Most people generally concentrate their arms where they will be most effective. The OFT obviously believe this is in UTCCR, rather than the common law arguments. Ultimatly, they may be right or wrong. Even if the OFT loses this case, it isn't over. The OFT has resources that are beyond those used so far... particularly, they can bring to bear european competition law to bear, or even change the law.

 

i think so far, they have done at least as well as could reasonably be expected.

 

Possibly, after all, they re-wrote those contracts quickly enough... It leaves the question of cloaking the penalty, and as I have said before, looking at the current T&Cs without looking FIRST at the historical ones (out of context, so to speak) and see the changes rewritten very suddently is like saying that the invasion of Poland caused WW2 and that if Poland hadn't been invaded, WW2 wouldn't have happened, and not looking at all the events that led to the invasion of Poland.

 

I don't believe that any judge would be able to find these terms were cloaking penalties on the basis they differed from previous terms:???: The judgement has to be made on the basis of whether the current terms are intended to punish contract breakers or not.

 

 

As for the invalidation of CCJ, I doubt it very much, as ultimately, there were very few judgments actually handed down, as very few cases ever made it to court for a judge to decide on, and again, most of them by default anyway, so the impact on decided cases would be minimal. On the other hand, one can only guess at what would happen to all those currently stuck in the system. :-(

 

I'm not talking about CCJs on the charging issue. I am talking about CCJs where the customer couldn't pay on time, and the bank took them to court.

i will be off site for the next month or so. if you have any problems, feel free to report the post so a moderator can help you.

 

I am not a qualified or practicing lawyer.

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tom as for cloaking penalties I'm with BW If I simply change the wording but not the cause & effect then it's the same thing & this has been recognised by the courts for many years

 

Also if I'm not mistaken the OFT made specific reference some time ago to not accepting the banks cloaking of penalty charges

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But, the point is the construction of the terms is not the same, and has different legal implications. If you have a contractual right to delay payment, or to go overlimit, then this has certain specific implications in terms of credit law. In particular, closing the account because you exercise your contractual rights is probably unfair within the meaning of the Consumer Credit Act 2006. Closing an account because you breached a term is not unfair.

 

recording a termination without cause as a default is probably a breach of the Data protection act 1998.

 

That's what the judge means by the terms being constructed to the advantage of the consumer... the judgement has huge legal implications, and we have just scratched the surface of them as yet.

i will be off site for the next month or so. if you have any problems, feel free to report the post so a moderator can help you.

 

I am not a qualified or practicing lawyer.

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Im sorry to keep asking this but no one has helped as yet. Can someone please tell me or direct me to the arguments submitted to the Court by the banks that led the judge to grant them an appeal. I have not found a single argument put forward yet and as you know the banks can not simply appeal because they dont like the decision they have to have grounds.

 

Thank you.

 

TheyrCriminals

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Guest Wild Billy

TomTerm8 and Puff both make a lot of sense. It's good to have balanced views expressed and an appreciation of the bigger picture.

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My understanding is that they asked for the appeal on the grounds that the conclusions had a significant affect on their business, that the judge came to the incorrect conclusion as a matter of law, and that the issues require clarification in an authoratative court (i.e. that the judge had to effectively create law, and that this should be done in a superior court).

 

The appeal is very limited, anyway, and does not significantly affect the outcome of the test case... it is a side show issue.

 

EDIT: it is normal for the reasons to be given in brief at the case management conference, we won't see the details until the appeal is actually submitted. Unfortunatly, I am not aware that any official transcripts of the CMC have been provided yet.

Edited by tomterm8

i will be off site for the next month or so. if you have any problems, feel free to report the post so a moderator can help you.

 

I am not a qualified or practicing lawyer.

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Im sorry to keep asking this but no one has helped as yet. Can someone please tell me or direct me to the arguments submitted to the Court by the banks that led the judge to grant them an appeal. I have not found a single argument put forward yet and as you know the banks can not simply appeal because they dont like the decision they have to have grounds.

 

Thank you.

 

TheyrCriminals

 

It could be because we haven't seen them, as you haven't.

 

I don't suppose the reasons for appeal will come in to the public domain until the appeal is heard, will it?

 

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Im sorry to keep asking this but no one has helped as yet. Can someone please tell me or direct me to the arguments submitted to the Court by the banks that led the judge to grant them an appeal. I have not found a single argument put forward yet and as you know the banks can not simply appeal because the dont like the decision they have to have grounds.

 

Thank you.

 

TheyrCriminals

 

Hiya,

I actually attended both days of the CMC so will try to answer your question.

Full write ups regarding the CMC appeared on another web site mentioned earlier in this thread.

The Banks appeals on the UTCCR 1999 aspects of the judgment were on various and differing grounds on a Bank by Bank basis. The main ones being that the Banks did not accept the Judges decision and felt that they had a reasonable chance of success if their grounds were heard in the Appeal Court. Detailed grounds were contained in skeletal argument documents which have not been made public.

However the OFT indicated that they did not object to the Banks grounds and the Judge agreed to give his permission for the Banks to appeal without requiring either side to discuss the matter. This is quite normal Court procedure.

Bear in mind that just because the Judge has given permission to appeal doesnt actually mean that an appeal hearing will go ahead. The appeal Court may decide not to allow it anyway.

Hope that helps !

Budgie

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Hi tomterm and Big Budgie,

 

Thank you very much for your information, things becoming more clearer now!

 

TheyrCriminals

 

 

No problem !

 

Most of the Banks involved in the Test Case are now putting up updates on their websites regarding the CMC. Some are including some detail as to why they have appealed the UTCCR judgment.

 

However obviously bear in mind the "spin" aspects applied by the Banks.

 

Tomterm raised a very relevant point

"The appeal is very limited, anyway, and does not significantly affect the outcome of the test case... it is a side show issue."

 

I totally agree with this and also remember that the OFT were not very worried about the Banks appeal as they decided not to attempt to have the appeal request dismissed.

 

Budgie

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A couple of pages back the conversation had touched on Compound Interest.

 

I am personally at a fairly advanced stage with a compound interest claim against Capital One. I am of course using Sempra but also found a 2004 report by the Law Commission which may be of interest to those people considering compound interest claims.

 

The Draft Bill's status is currently listed as pending, so this bill hasn't got very far upon it's journey through Parliament yet. However it does make very interesting reading and gifts one or two useful points for inclusion in POc's and witness statements in connection with any claim.

Final Report.pdf

Draft Bill.pdf

Summary of recommendations.pdf

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Dramatic About Turn As Barclays Cuts Overdraft Charges |Sky News|Business

 

 

 

 

"Barclays says it has been able to reduce its charges as a result of breakthroughs in its handling systems, with a far greater automated service."

 

 

reading this it would appear that Barclays have got computerised. :eek::eek: Or is the start of a war for customers? :???::???:

Edited by stonedecroze
missed the important bit !!

=======================================================================================================

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

 

 

Halifax Won £1180.00

NatWest Won £876.00

Halifax 2 N1 submitted 20/07/07 stayed 24/08/07 N244 Application filed 31/08/07 hearing set for 12/11/07 rescheduled for 29/01/2008. Application dismissed stay still in place.

Charity Group £200 compo for lost passport.

HM revenue & Customs; demand for WTC overpayment £632.12. Disputed, their error. Did not have to repay.

All opinions expressed are my own and have no legal standing and no connection to CAG

 

All errors/typos etc are not my fault the blame lies with the spelling gremlins

 

<<<<<< If any of this has been helpful, PLEASE click my scales

 

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Barclays says it has been able to reduce its charges as a result of breakthroughs in its handling systems, with a far greater automated service.

 

Of course these systems have been there for some time. So it looks like a war for customers and about time too:D

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I'm not sure but haven't Barclays, in keeping with the rest, already 'changed' their fee structure to more than compensate for any loss or reduction in penalty fees........ Also 'beware! Greeks bearing gifts'

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this stinks of a deal between banks and OFT....

 

I look forward to July court date...

Only direct action by the masses will work....

 

Look at all successes they have never come from negotiation!!!

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