Black Horse and Car Land

[jo5ephedward5]

Hello,

 

Now I’m not sure weather this should go in vehicle retailers and manufactures, garage services or finance under Lloyds so as it mentions all 3 I’ve posted here…Mods feel free to move it!

 

 

 

The Saga:

 

Feb 2005 I brought a Vauxhall Corsa 1.0litre 12valve Club from CarLand in Cannock using Black Horse for the financial side…now I knew then this was a mistake but I needed a car for work and I couldn’t get credit at the time with any other lenders (even Yes said No!!! – thank god).

 

I have never missed a payment but I now owe more than my car was worth 17months ago

I need to either sell or return this car as I have since moved to central London and haven’t even driven the car since January this year, yet have to pay to insure it and tax it as I only have on-street parking, I’m at a loss and hope some one can help me!

 

 

 

Here’s my issues:

 

CarLand:

 

1: they sold me a product called ‘Suregarud’ this is a paint protection plan and the salesman said it should be £299, but it was ‘in with the deal’. Now in with the deal I assumed was free…however upon going through my financial records today it has become apparent they have charged me £100 for this (of course interest is added over the 6 year agreement!!!) – I never had this product applied as I never got round to it and feel that firstly I was mis-sold it but secondly as I have never received the treatment / product then I should be able to get it back plus the interest?

 

2: They sold me a ‘warranty’ that was £800 for 12 months, again this has interest on it and is paid over 6 years…now I remember him taking to me about it and me saying no thank-you, I defiantly had this conversation with him as my dad used to be a mechanic so would be able to fix anything that could go wrong with the car for a lot less than £800 in the first year – bearing in mind the car was under 3 years old at the time of purchase so shouldn’t have been giving me 800quids worth of issues in the first 12montsh of ownership. The order has been ticked to show I didn’t want it then crossed out and ticked to say I did want it with the salesman’s signature next to it, I’m adamant that I didn’t want this product I would never pay £800 over 6 years for a 12month product (if that makes sense) and surely if the order had changed I should have initialled the form to say I had changed my mind not him?

 

3: When sold the finance no-one explained to me what it was i.e.: HP or Loan etc – I know it would have been in the terms and conditions but the sad truth is I was so happy I could get back on the road in something new that I didn’t care! – my bad, but it should have still been made clear imo

 

4: I had a part exchange on an old Mark 3 Astra – I said £100 would be fine but checking it they gave me £1…it was worth more than that for scrap and it still had full MOT and run well!

 

Black Horse Finance:

 

1: I assumed as it was a car this was a HP agreement – I called to asked how much I had paid (£2700) and asked if I could terminate it and hand it back as this was over half of the cost of the car (£4900). They said it’s not a HP agreement and it’s a Personal Loan, as I was told as it wasn’t a HP agreement I asked could I sell the car, they said yes I could sell the car, yet upon doing a HPI check the finance is outstanding and linked – can they do this as they surely cant have it both ways? Wither an unlinked loan or linked HP?

 

2: the loan was for £9000 the car was £5000 – 4900 for the car and 100 for the Suregaurd that I never had applied, the rest is interest…can they really add all the interest in one lump and not apply the interest daily? Now I owe £6300 for a car I brought 17 months ago at £4900 after paying £2700 off it!

 

3: The ‘extras’ Gap insurance, Service plan, (which I wanted) and the warranty that I didn’t ask for but have signed for, are run under a different loan, again they had set prices, then the interest was added in one lump and spread over 6 years – this loan was approx £2000 and I owe around £1600 still, why is this separate…it should have been in the same shouldn’t it?

 

My problem is it shows on my credit file as me having over 11K of loans (albeit with some paid off) to black horse when In reality I am paying for stuff I don’t/didn’t want and also showing I owe more than I brought products for in the first place…how can I start to sort this mess out as calling them seems to get me pushed from person to person.

 

Sorry it’s long winded people….any questions lol?

[Rob S]

In respect of the loan, Black Horse should be able to provide you with a copy of the agreement that you signed which should detail if its a personal loan or HP. If its the former then you can sell the car and still carry on paying the loan off.

[jo5ephedward5]

In respect of the loan, Black Horse should be able to provide you with a copy of the agreement that you signed which should detail if its a personal loan or HP. If its the former then you can sell the car and still carry on paying the loan off.

 

i have the agrement and its a loan but its on the HPI check as owing.

[Rob S]

It shouldn't be showing on the HPI register as outstanding finance in that case. Have you considered contacting them to enquire as to why they have it listed as such?

[jo5ephedward5]

It shouldn't be showing on the HPI register as outstanding finance in that case. Have you considered contacting them to enquire as to why they have it listed as such?

 

they told me it shouldn't be on there - they dont log it...even though they have.

 

they also said i can sell the car but if i sell i have to give them all the money i get with proof that was all i made and then make arrangements to pay the remainder of the loan off...

 

i'm really not sure about this but it doesn't seem fair to me...they cant have it both ways can they?

[jo5ephedward5]

UPDATE:

 

just got off the phone to BlackHorse:

 

they say the car was brought with a personal loan.

 

I CAN sell the car - but all money goes to them, they say its on the HPI register as they have an interest it it...

 

when i said hwo do i sell a car on the HPI register i was told, the buyer will have to call and pay BlackHorse what they agree with me, then they will take it off the HPI register and bill me the outstanding loan figure minus what they get for the car...this doesnt sound right or fair to me?

 

who would i call to clarify they can do this...trading standards?

[Rob S]

That doesn't sound right at all. If its a personal loan then as long as you make the payments on it then you can sell the car if you want. What they are effectively telling you is that you have a HP agreement, not a personal loan. It might be worth asking to speak to someone who has a supervisory capacity within Black Horse

[jo5ephedward5]

I wish it was that simple, they said no one was able to talk to me and they couldnt call me back - they have assured me its a loan not HP and i have paper work to back this up...I e-mailed HPI people so they can confirm personal loans dont show up on their records and i have spoken to Consumer Direct who seemed confused and told me to send a recorded letter to them and ask what their reasoning is for adding it to the HPI register is...i guess thats what i have to do for now?

[Ihatebanks]

I would go into your local trading standards office they have people who specailise in this,I had a problem a few years ago with credit acceptance corp the contacted them and within 2 weeks it was sorted out and I got £500 compo

HP is secured loan on the car a personal loan is not

I bought the OH a car and paid cash I have an interest in it but I haven't registered it on HPI (mind you I dont work for Black Donkey)

I think they are trying to give you the runaround

[jo5ephedward5]

I was planning on sending this - its a bit poo but to the point, any comments?

Black Horse Ltd

St William House,

Tresillian Terrace,

Cardiff

CF10 5BH

Date: 05.07.2006

Dear Sir or Madam:

Account number – XXXXXXXXXX

Vehicle Registration – XXXX XXX

After recently obtaining a HPI check (copy attached) for the above vehicle I am a little confused as to why there is outstanding finance shown against this vehicle.

As far as I’m aware I brought this vehicle with a Black Horse personal loan, this is confirmed on my signed agreement and has also been confirmed by a number of members of your staff.

As this is not a Hire Purchase agreement I would like to know on what grounds you have placed it on the HPI register.

I would request that this information is provided to me within the next 14 days.

Yours Faithfully etc

[jo5ephedward5]

I contacted the HPI people yesterday and they called black horse on my behalf.

Black Horse state that there is a clause in my terms and conditions that says if I sell the vehicle I have to pay them the full balance within 7 days of sale. That’s why they add it to the HPI register. But the fact its on the HPI register means I cant sell it so I don’t see how this clause is even valid!

I’ll go through my contract tonight and keep you informed but I still think it’s unfair as they have given me a loan with all the draw backs of HP and non of the gains…plus the as they have given me a £9000 loan when i was under the impression i was taking out a £4900 loan

Does this mean I’m screwed?

[Rob S]

Looking at the Black Horse website, they only list 2 specific products which they offer when buying a car through them. Either HP or a personal contract purchase plan. Hire purchase is available on cars up to 10 years old, the PCP is only available on new and used cars up to 3 years old. They will offer payment terms on HP from 1 to 5 years. But it does seem odd that they have inserted such a clause within a personal loan which effectively makes it a HP agreement.

[jo5ephedward5]

I know - i had seen there website and actually assumed it was HP untill i re-read my contract, i would have thought the dealership should have explained what type of finace it was, even if they didnt go through it (i know i should have asked and read the full terms)

 

I think i will check this with the OFT as i dont think its a fair term and condition in a contract, after all it should be a Loan or HP not a combination of both!

 

A bank woulndn't give you a loan for say a TV then tell you you cant sell it and if you do they want all money plus interest back in 7 days...its just not fair imo

[jo5ephedward5]

this gets better - in looking over all my paper work and found the 3 forms i have all have different sums on them and i have been sold payment protection insurance...i wasnt even offered it - didnt know it was added on - i'm so unhappy about this, i cant believe they can work like this - is there anything i can do about this company?

[jo5ephedward5]

Ok i'm currently writing to Black Horse to complain about everything from mis sold PPI to paying for products i was told were free and never received regardless of cost!

 

 

What i would like to know is are Black Horse at fault for anything other than putting my car on the HPI register when it wasn’t brought on HP – I know that if it was on HP they would be, but as i'm trying to steer them away from treating it like it should i take my claims to Car Land who were the dealership?

 

My complaint will include:

 

1) PPI that i didn’t ask for and didn’t even know was added until i re-read my stuff!

 

2) Paying £100 for paint protection (even tho they said it was free) and regardless of this it was never as i never went back to have it applied

 

3) a £800 12 warranty on a car with 12months manufactures warranty remaining and after i ticked the no-thanks box the sales man has amended it and signed the amendment!

 

4) Selling me a car with a personal loan but placing it on the HPI register as if it were HP.

 

Now i was going to send it to Black Horse but i suspect only the HPI part is their issue as they leant me what Car Land had asked for - or is it still their responsibility?

 

Cheers

[blacksheep1979]

Well Black Horse didn't sell you the loan or the PPI it was the garage, you rproblem is you have signed the paperwork, so in effect agreed to it.

 

Furthermore when you say they have given you a 9k loan they haven't they have given you a 5k loan with interest, whilst they have added all the interest at the start they won't be adding it throughout the payment period and you will pay the same amount in the end, it just makes you realise though how much you do end up paying with loans like this.

 

 

You may be able to have something done about the sureguard if they haven't done the work, but again it is probably the garage that you will have to be claiming from.

 

Quick Q - did you arange the finance then go buy the car or did you go buy the car and the garage supplied the finance?

 

 

If the latter then its 100% the garage that you should be going after - blackhorse are just doing as instructed.

[jo5ephedward5]

I went to CarLand and they sorted the finance through Black Horse - i keep thinking Black Horse are at fault but the more i look into it its CarLand - so what do i do?

 

So hows this:

 

Send letter to Black Horse RE: getting my car off the HPI register (as shouldnt be on there) & request a copy of all the finacial paper work (is it worth sending a DSAR to get all info they have?)

 

when i have compaired what Black Horse have got compared to what i have got i'll write a letter to CarLand RE: all the other factors and hopefully they will refund me whats rightfully mine (the Paint Protection) and with some luck the stuff they forged for the warrenty and the miss sold PPI

 

all advise welcome - i'll be typing up letters properly tonight and will post up here.

 

Cheers

[blacksheep1979]

Thing is there is no proof they have been missold the PPI - if it went to court all you have is your word against theirs and you have signed accepting it this will come under 'due diligence' or lack thereof on your part - you had time to check the paperwork before you signed it.

 

I'm afraid that the best you are likely to get is the sureguard back, as for the loan being secured against the car its a standard thing for loans of this type

[deemacperth]

Send a DSAR requesting all information they hold on your account including correspondence with the garage. Then do the same to the garage. I'd definetly go and see your local trading standards as well.

[jo5ephedward5]

Thing is there is no proof they have been missold the PPI - if it went to court all you have is your word against theirs and you have signed accepting it this will come under 'due diligence' or lack thereof on your part - you had time to check the paperwork before you signed it.

 

I'm afraid that the best you are likely to get is the sureguard back, as for the loan being secured against the car its a standard thing for loans of this type

 

There is no mention of the loan being secured on the car- on the terms and conditions it says i can sell teh car but muct inform BH within 7days of sale - i tried to sell it and found it was on the HPI register...if i was able to sell it i woudl be in breach for selling it with linked finance - Trading Standards said dont sell it - BH form says i can but they have made it impossible to do so by adding it to the HPI register!

 

Also mis-sold PPI, i didnt sign for it - there is no terms and conditions for it - its just scheduled into my list of what i'm paying back - i didnt even know i was paying it till recently

 

for the warrenty i had ticked 'no' and signed it and the salesman has crossed my tick out and ticked yes and he has signed next to it - now if i wanted a change i should sign it not him else they could put anything through!

 

I'll send a DSAR this week and see what comes back but it seems a bit like the yes car credit saga - and they seem to claim back PPI without to many issues

[dw190]

the salesman has crossed my tick out and ticked yes and he has signed next to it -

 

That is fraud if he has altered anything on the document after you have signed.

[jo5ephedward5]

I know - but how do i prove that i didnt sign it?

 

I think as its an ammendment it shouldnt have been signed by him to confirm the alteration - it should be me that does that...like with a cheque?

[dw190]

I know - but how do i prove that i didnt sign it?

 

I think as its an ammendment it shouldnt have been signed by him to confirm the alteration - it should be me that does that...like with a cheque?

 

The alteration is an addition to the agreement and is an increase on your expense. Thats why you should have signed it to acknowledge that you agreed.

 

If you made an alteration on a cheque issued by yourself thhen you would sign it to acknowledge the alteration.

 

If I received a cheque that had different amounts between the written and numbered amounts the bank would only accept my initialed alteration as long as I was claiming the lower of the two amounts.

[jo5ephedward5]

yeah - i get a feeling that Black Horse havent got a copy of this - obviously time will tell but so far i think that it is the form that they use to enquire what i want / need - they have then filled in the stuff with Black Horse and had it all included in the totals - i've signed the Black Horse forms assuming i had got what had just taken 2hours of my time and 10 forms / signatures.

 

the Black Horse forms include the products i have not asked for but i signed these in good faith assuming that he hadnt fixed what i agreed to! - i know what a fool!, he also didnt say i could take them away to read and i now knwo i could have!

 

I think if i send the DSAR to Black Horse i should also send it to CarLand and see what they hold...or as they are technically a non finacial body do they have to issue it and indeed after 18 months will they still have it?

[blacksheep1979]

any company that stores information on you is covered by the DPA (although slight exclusions for education authorities and some others) so you should be able to get yr details from that garage