I need help please

[venetian fire]

Hi guys,

 

I'm having a issue with Council Tax/Bailiffs and the moment.

 

As far as I knew I was up to date and fine with my Council Tax payments. However, some post from my old address ( which I left 6 months ago) was forwarded on to me about 2 months ago and in it was a Court Order and Bailliff Seizure notice:o

 

I assumed it was mistake but through time on the phone (and on hold) to both Council Tax Enforcements & Bailiffs, it turns out that it was some unpaid CT is for my old address.

 

Now here's my gripe - I did not try to evade this, had I known there was any outstanding arrears I would have cleared it. Also I asked Council Tax when sorting my monthly repayements IF it included arrears and they said yes. I didn't move out the borough and Council Tx had my new address, I told them I had moved.

 

As far as I knew the arrears was consolidated with my current payment agreement. The letter states they tried to contact me, how could they have done that at my old address where someone else was living and paying their own Council Tax.

 

Is this right? Can they do this? Enforcements is refusing to call off the Bailiff because they say it's correct and they received nothing to inform them I had moved (even though I have the same name, date of birth, N.I number and have been paying council tx to that same office for my new address).

 

To me, this seems ludricrous as I sent them a letter and also told them over the phone.

 

And the bailiffs. Ah, the bailiffs. The guy was not in for listening when I initially explained the mistake, he said he was coming to seize my stuff and promptly hung up on me. I feel it would stress me to much to try to talk to him again and I know it's stupid but I've ignored his letters(including the hand delivered one). If I continue to ignore will I get a CCJ? I can be pretty stubborn (even if it ends up worse for me ) and I'll be damned if I pay charges for arrears I didn't even know I had.

 

Council Tax, followed by rent comes top of list as far as payments go - I know there is no way it can be avoided. But, I was so upset to know that no one used their common sense to try to contact me on the phone or at my new address to tell me about it and now I'm paying for it.

 

I'm happy to pay the CTax but NOT the bailiff charges:mad:

 

I appreciate any suggestions.

 

XXX

[chris600uk]

If I continue to ignore will I get a CCJ?

 

No.

[chris600uk]

How much are the arrears?

 

Do you have the money to pay the arrears off in one go?

 

If you do, pay the council online and the bailiffs will no longer have the right to pester you.

[chris600uk]

It's late so I'll keep it brief.

 

You must stop talking to bailiffs they aren't interested in your problems, only ever write or email, keeping copies of everything so you can prove what you have said to whom.

 

Never let them into your home, don't sign anything, talk to them through an upstairs window only if you feel you must, otherwise ignore them.

 

Park your car away from the house until this is sorted out.

[chris600uk]

I was so upset to know that no one used their common sense to try to contact me on the phone or at my new address to tell me about it

 

Yep, that's just a normal day for the council.

 

If you don't tell them that you've left the property and make sure that they have actually updated your file, they will theoretically continue to charge you for it for ever. It's nuts but they don't care enough to do anything about it.

[Guest Screw The Bailiff]

Need to clear a few things.

 

Hi guys,

 

I'm having a issue with Council Tax/Bailiffs and the moment.

 

As far as I knew I was up to date and fine with my Council Tax payments. However, some post from my old address ( which I left 6 months ago) was forwarded on to me about 2 months ago and in it was a Court Order and Bailliff Seizure notice:o

 

I assumed it was mistake but through time on the phone (and on hold) to both Council Tax Enforcements & Bailiffs, it turns out that it was some unpaid CT is for my old address.

 

Now here's my gripe - I did not try to evade this, had I known there was any outstanding arrears I would have cleared it. Also I asked Council Tax when sorting my monthly repayements IF it included arrears and they said yes. I didn't move out the borough and Council Tx had my new address, I told them I had moved.

 

Important. Was the liability order sent to your OLD address yes/no, and was it forwarded by the present occupier at your old address? (i.e. not sent to your new address by the court? yes/no

 

As far as I knew the arrears was consolidated with my current payment agreement. The letter states they tried to contact me, how could they have done that at my old address where someone else was living and paying their own Council Tax.

 

That's an admission a liability order may have been sent to the wrong address. Do you have that comment from the council in writing? yes/no

 

Is this right? Can they do this?

 

Technically yes but its incompetent.

 

Enforcements is refusing to call off the Bailiff because they say it's correct and they received nothing to inform them I had moved (even though I have the same name, date of birth, N.I number and have been paying council tx to that same office for my new address).

 

I hope you havnt given the bailiff your new address did you? yes/no

 

You will need to revoke the Liability order and I'll show you how to do provided you can answer the right yes/no's above.

 

To me, this seems ludricrous as I sent them a letter and also told them over the phone.

 

Did you keep a copy of that letter you sent them ? yes/no, and know the date it was sent? yes/no

 

And the bailiffs. Ah, the bailiffs. The guy was not in for listening when I initially explained the mistake, he said he was coming to seize my stuff and promptly hung up on me.

 

You can tug him for being unreasonable, not enough for him to be struck off but if theres no walking possession agreement then he has misrepresented his authority by claiming he can seize your goods without having a valid levy.

was done for doing just that.

 

I feel it would stress me to much to try to talk to him again and I know it's stupid but I've ignored his letters(including the hand delivered one). If I continue to ignore will I get a CCJ? I can be pretty stubborn (even if it ends up worse for me ) and I'll be damned if I pay charges for arrears I didn't even know I had.

 

You cannot get a CCJ for an artificial debt, a CCJ on your credit file represents consumer debt or where you have reneged on a credit contract. Write a letter based on this template and post it to the bailiffs.

 

Council Tax, followed by rent comes top of list as far as payments go - I know there is no way it can be avoided. But, I was so upset to know that no one used their common sense to try to contact me on the phone or at my new address to tell me about it and now I'm paying for it.

 

Prepare a letter based on (EDIT) and it'll revoke a walking possesions fee and stops him entering. Keep it handy so you can hand it to him through a window. NEVER open the door to him and keep your goods secure until this matter is resolved.

 

I'm happy to pay the CTax but NOT the bailiff charges:mad:

 

Pay the council driect where possible, tell them you moved and the liability order was not properly served on you directing you to appear before the court. Therefore by sending bailiffs to a different address than that shown on the liability order the council is contradicting Regulation 34 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and you will file a complaint of misfeasance with the LGO if they continue to pervert a point of law and you will apply for a compensation award against the council.

 

I appreciate any suggestions.

 

XXX

 

If a bailiff gets funny with you, or defrauds in some way you then keep us advised, there's ways of dealing with them.

[tomtubby]

Venetian Fire.

 

As I have said MANY times.....do NOT talk to the bailiff on the phone, put everything in WRITING. There is nor PROOF of what was agreed between the two of you in a phone conversation.

 

You have said you are happy to pay the council direct.

 

You have also confirmed that you ignored a hand delivered letter.

 

The bailiff has said that he WILL come to seize goods.

 

In others words, just a hand delivered letter has arrived which and no visit to seize goods has YET taken place.

 

I would therefore suggest that you WRITE to the bailiff company enclosing a cheque for £24.50 plus vat in full settlement for just the one visit and pay the council direct.

[venetian fire]

Hi Screwthebailiff (nice name btw)

 

I'll try and answer your ?'s.....

 

Yes, the bailiff has my new address - I moved within the borough and the enforcements team at my branch gave it to them (after I refused).

The bailiffs are Rundle & Co Ltd.

 

Re the liabilty order: I've just been looking through loads of papers and a

letter from the bliff states " I have been trying to contact you regarding the Liabilty Order obtained against you by....." and it's been sent to my old address and was forwarded on by someone living there. However I can't find this liabilty order, is it an orange ltr? does this still count as an admission? I believe I have no comment from the Council, all over the phone:(

 

Do I have a copy of the letter I sent? It's only saved on my laptop, I guess that's not helpful:rolleyes:

 

Chris600uk: it's feesible to pay it off in one go but I may be living off Cup a Soup for the rest of the month:grin:. If I wouldn't get a CCJ for not paying, what would I get? and may I ask, do you know who would pay the bailiff if the Council called them off?

 

Thanks for the help guys, tomtubby ditto....

 

xx

[chris600uk]

If I wouldn't get a CCJ for not paying, what would I get? and may I ask, do you know who would pay the bailiff if the Council called them off?

 

What you get is a Liability Order, enforceable by the bailiffs if the council have failed to collect the debt. The council can only take the debt back under certian circs, like you're vulnerable, pregnant, on certain benefits, etc.

The bailiff can choose to return the debt if they are unable to recover any money, and receive a Nulla Bona payment for that.

The CCJ system and the 6 year register as we know it is meant for commercial

entities or private individuals who don't have the benefit of the law rubberstamping enforcement, whether it's badly done or not.

 

That it's a bad law has escaped them, using the existing income tax system appears to be far too simple and sensible for our top civil servants, who really run the country.

[PizzaMaker]

If you owe the council over £750 they could serve you with a stat demand, eg. bankruptcy order.....you may laugh but i know of a few councils who are going down this route, even for sums of £1000.

[venetian fire]

I've just spoken to Council Tax and I'm at the end of my rope.

 

They aint goning to call the Bailiffs off nothing, even if I were to pay it all off in one go. It's like a chant "go back to the bailiffs, go back, go back , go back to the bailiffs....."

 

I'm gonna play all my cards now, Chris600uk, you say Council Tax can take the debt back if you're vulnerable? I've been chronically ill for the last few years, i'm on medication for it and my condition is exacerbated by stress, could that count?

 

I spoke the LGO and they advised me to raise a complaint with the council, me vs the verus? I'm not optimistic....

 

And Screw the Bailiff, CTax say that the Lia ord was sent to old address while living there and the correspondence from the bailiff was the only things sent there since I moved and that's allowed.

 

Aargh!

 

Sorry to be a pain but could I get some help again please ?

 

Thank you

[tomtubby]

This is completely normal response from the council.

 

You need to WRITE to the bailiff company to confirm that you will pay but that you WILL NOT allow a bailiff entry into your home as to do so would incur you in additional fees and charges that you know you will have difficulty in repaying.

 

The MAXIMUM that they can charge you then is £24.50 being a first visit to levy.

[venetian fire]

Hi guys,

 

This is the letter I plan to send to the bailiffs tmrow with a cc copy to the council. I know it's late but could anyone give me some advice on whether it looks/sounds okay?

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Re:

 

I understand xxx Council has appointed you to recover my Council Tax Liability arrears for 200x of approximately £xxxx.

 

Firstly I would like to make you aware that I am fully aware of my rights and you will not gain entry to my home under any circumstances to levy goods and I know the fees allowed under statute and when these fees can be applied.

 

 

On the occasions when I have tried to discuss this with you over the phone, I found you to be both threatening and abusive. In one instance with Mr…….... when trying to explain my circumstances I was hung up on. I suffer from a chronic condition which is exacerbated by stress and so I feel it’s in my best interest to cease contact with you. However please be advised that I am not refusing to pay, in fact I have just made an online payment direct to Council Tax for £xxx. I will make another payment next month for £xxx which will make my balance nil.

 

 

With regards to your own fees, namely £xxx, I believe that this is not only excessive but unlawful. As I understand it you are allowed to charge £20 for your first visit and £15 for the second visit maximum. The only documentation I have received from you is several Royal Mail 1st class letters and one hand delivered letter. Therefore unless you have valid documentation to suggest otherwise I will pay £20 as full and final settlement of the above, as soon as you confirm receipt of this letter.

 

I hope the above meets your approval and I look forward to your timely reply by letter.

 

Yours faithfully......

 

Is it okay? Any suggestions?

 

Thanks

 

VF

[chris600uk]

Yes, I would have put it this way, in fact I did:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Re: ********* Client reference *********

Please understand that I am fully aware of my rights and you will not

gain entry to my home under any circumstances to levy goods

I know the fees allowed under statute and when these fees can be applied.

 

Dear Sir/madam,

 

I have discovered that you are only allowed to charge ONCE for each visit.

So on the ***** when you came to hand deliver a letter at my home you became entitled to one payment of £24.50 (see note below) covering ALL accounts you were dealing with that day.

 

 

 

I have found that you are attempting to charge fees that are excessive. If you believe that the charges listed in your letters dated ****** are legitimate, please provide the name of the bailiff, the court at which he was certified, the date you believe the visit took place and what the fee consists of (please provide receipts where necessary).

 

I have not refused to pay the Council Tax arrears.

I am concerned that if I pay all the money to you directly, you will take unfairly escalated fees, so I will be making payment for the debts listed in the liability orders directly to ******** Council, and payment for the fees you are entitled to directly to yourselves.

I am sending a copy of this letter to ******** City Council

Please reply within 7 days, confirming that your records have been amended.

 

 

 

 

when researching your charges I used:

 

 

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) REGULATIONS 1992

AS AMENDED BY THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) (NO.2) REGULATIONS 1993,

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION & ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 1998,

THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION AND ENFORCEMENT) (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) (ENGLAND) REGULATIONS 2003

AND THE COUNCIL TAX AND NON-DOMESTIC RATING (AMENDMENT) (ENGLAND) REGULATIONS 2006

SCHEDULE 5 CHARGES CONNECTED WITH DISTRESS

1. The sum in respect of charges connected with the distress which may be aggregated under Regulation 45(2)

shall be as set out in the following Table-

(1) Matter connected with distress

(2) Charge

A For making a visit to premises with a view to

Levying distress (where no levy is made) -

 

(i) where the visit is the first or only

such visit): £24.50

 

(ii) where the visit is the second such

visit: £18.00

 

 

I have now made you aware of the circumstances, so if your company continues with enforcement action that you are not entitled to take, I will consider making a formal complaint about the bailiff’s conduct to the County Court.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

or words to that effect just adjust it to fit the facts, although I think tomtubby has another which I can't find, but it was good.

Hope that helps.

[tomtubby]

Venetian Fire.

 

The letter is fine but the amount of the fees is wrong.

 

As it is so important that viewers on here should know how much they should be charged,I have asked the moderators so many times whether I can put a sticky up with the CORRECT fee scale but sadly not allowed I'm afraid.

 

The fees have increased twice since your figures. The CORRECT amount is £24.50 for a first visit and £18.00 for a second visit. There can not be any further visit charges and neither can a bailiff co charge a letter fee.

[venetian fire]

Thanx v much for all your help - I am amending my letter right now:)

[tomtubby]

Please do keep us updated on any response you receive..

[venetian fire]

Update:

 

Hoorah! it's would seem all is now right in the world - well not really, but ya know, small victories and all that.

 

I feel really guilty for not posting sooner but I've had so much on and I'm incapable of editing....

 

Well I decided to file a complaint against the Council in regard to the Council Tx arrears and how it was dealt with. It took a few days and persistence to speak to someone with some sense but as soon as I did It

was as simple as that. In regards to complaints my Council office say they aim to resolve them in a working day over the phone or something like that, so I got a call back after it was looked into by this lady a few hours later.

 

Right away she said she could see the problem: Council TX had continued to charge me up until the new tenant moved into my old place even though I had started a new tenancy and was already paying CTax for that. In effect I was double charged and thus overcharged for about 8 weeks. She then called off the bailiff and updated my account. I did not pay any bailiff charges.

 

I would like to be a person who perhaps doesn't harbour vengence; but i'm not. Yeah it's good it's sorted and all that but this has kinda been an ordeal and an unecessary one thus I'm more than annoyed I had to go through hell for their "oops". I'm going to follow up the complaint because complaints are basically a pain in the neck and though I know they won't SUFFER suffer, I want to make they pay a little.

 

My advice to anyone in this situation is to file a formal complaint, the procedure of a complaint gets people moving (even the really slow ones).

 

And also a big thanks to everyone who has helped me, really. I couldn't have done it without you.

[tomtubby]

It is good to hear that this is sorted out but it would appear that you may be overlooking one very important point. This is the councils charge to you for obtaining the Liability Order.

 

So many people are unaware that when the council issue the summons to you notifying that they are applying for a Liability Order they charge a fee of around £45 to your account. When the Liability Order is actually obtained at the Magistrates Court they are granted their costs which is normally £40. In total you will be charged £85 ON TOP of what you owe. For business rates (NNDR) the charge is typically around £160-£185.

 

Councils make many millions of pounds each year in obtaining Liability Orders. Of course they have to pay court fees themsleves.

 

The Magistrates Court charges them..................£3 !!!

[venetian fire]

Hi TomTubby,

 

I'm just about to send in a letter to file a formal complaint on the matter, do ya happen to know if there's usually a time limit on these things? I received a letter a month ago resolving the situation but stating that if I still wasn't happy I could take it further - no time limit on it tho:rolleyes:

 

And also do you suppose I could contest the Liability order charges?

 

Thanks:)

 

VF

[dottie30]

Re the council refusing payment and telling you to go back to the bailiff. I paid my council tax on their online system; then wrote them a letter, including the printed copy of the receipt and copying in the bailiff. I made it clear that this was the OUTSTANDING amount owed, NOT going towards this year's council tax. They accepted it - how could they not? The bailiff was then informed.