A & L Trying Court second time

[bach]

Hi all, Iv been so ill, not been able to get my head of the pillow, and also had to give my notice in due to a diagnosed condition thats not good.

Anyway feeling slighlty better to day, so thought I had better sort this lot out. Thank you all for your help.

Firstly,

PrioryOne asked if I found out why the solicitors discontined the first time, having phoned and asked in writing they would not tell me. I suspect

that it was because there was no CCA or because they had issued it to the wrong Court (Cambridgeshire not Warwickshire) Now transfered to my local Court.

 

Secondly, TomTerm8, Can't forward a copy of the charging order application to you but if it will help will type it out for you.?

Great letters TomTerm8, I have put in the relevent information in and copys of letters and will post recorded next day delivery to the Court and Solicitor.

 

Early August I received letters from the land registry to say that the interim charging order was now completed. I did write to them and explain the situation and I have a very sympatetic letter back.

Is there anything else I can do?

Thanks at all again

 

Lynn

[Brassed off]

Your Address

 

 

 

DATE

 

SOLICITERS ADDRESS

 

 

 

 

In the Matter of CREDITOR(Applicant) Vs YOU (Respondent)

 

Case no XXX

 

In X County court.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam

 

RE: RESPONSE TO YOUR APPLICATION.

 

I find it extraordinary that your client has made an application to impose a charging order upon my property, after informing me that they would take no further action. For your information, I enclose a copy of my response to this application.

 

Please be aware that if you choose to continue with this application, in the event the court dismisses it (as I believe it will), I intend to make a formal complaint to the attorney general that you and your clients are vexatious litigants under Section 42 of the Supreme Courts Act 1981.

 

 

I respectfully ask you to investigate the matter further.

 

 

Yours truly,

 

Sorry Tom - "nit picky" is my middle name:)

 

Bo x

[bach]

Hi Tom

Sorry but brain on a go slow, do I quote this section word for word or are there any insertions I have to make ?? I have'nt got a copy of the appropiate act / amendment.

“11 The repeal by this Act of—

(a) the words “(subject to subsections (3) and (4))” in subsection (1) of

section 127 of the 1974 Act,

(b) subsections (3) to (5) of that section, and

© the words “or 127(3)” in subsection (3) of section 185 of that Act, has no effect in relation to improperly-executed agreements made before the commencement of section 15 of this Act.”

Thanks Lynn

[tomterm8]

 

Secondly, TomTerm8, Can't forward a copy of the charging order application to you but if it will help will type it out for you.?

Lynn

 

Yes,

[tomterm8]

Hi Tom

Sorry but brain on a go slow, do I quote this section word for word or are there any insertions I have to make ?? I have'nt got a copy of the appropiate act / amendment.

 

 

“11 The repeal by this Act of—

(a) the words “(subject to subsections (3) and (4))” in subsection (1) of

section 127 of the 1974 Act,

(b) subsections (3) to (5) of that section, and

© the words “or 127(3)” in subsection (3) of section 185 of that Act, has no effect in relation to improperly-executed agreements made before the commencement of section 15 of this Act.”

 

Thanks Lynn

 

eh, you just quote it as in the letter. It's online at Consumer Credit Act 2006 (c. 14) - Statute Law Database if you want to have a look.

 

All the section is doing is telling the judge that the provisions of s127 of the act remain intact.

[bach]

Morning to all Just an update

 

Sent of the letters that you suggested to the Court and Solicitors last Monday still waiting for a reply.

 

The Solicitors also sent letter telling me they would be adding charges and Court Costs, however when they first tried to take it to Court they wrote saying that I would not incure any charges. Silly devils wrote back on Friday said sorry for the error ignore the letter there are difinatly no charges to me.

I will keep in touch with any developments

 

Lynn

[tomterm8]

Morning to all Just an update

 

Sent of the letters that you suggested to the Court and Solicitors last Monday still waiting for a reply.

 

The Solicitors also sent letter telling me they would be adding charges and Court Costs, however when they first tried to take it to Court they wrote saying that I would not incure any charges. Silly devils wrote back on Friday said sorry for the error ignore the letter there are difinatly no charges to me.

I will keep in touch with any developments

 

Lynn

 

have you called the court to find out whether they have set a date for the hearing?

[bach]

I was informed two weeks ago that the hearing would be on the 4th October and would only last 5 min.

 

I have an update, received a letter from solicitors yesterday, thought it was going to be a reply to the one which you suggested I sent, however, it was a copy of the Notice of hearing and copies of the Intrim Charging order which I had allready received a month ago. They have completly ignored my letter. Still waiting for a reply from the same letter from the Court. Both letters have been signed for on the 4th Septmeber

 

I have also noticed that it says at the end of the Intrim Charging Order "Take Notice That as from Monday 1st October 2007 ALL correspondence MUST be directed to ------ Court and the address"

 

This Court is the one that they got wrong the first time, it was'nt till I notified this Court that it was not my local court that the Solicitors relised they were hundreds of miles away. How ever they have got the correct Court Name on the Notice of Hearing

 

Sorry if it sound very confusing but the Solicitors can seem to get anything right.

 

 

Lynn

[bach]

Hi all, I have a letter this morning from Solicitors saying

 

"Since our client (A&L) has informed you that an original CCA is unbtainable, then Reg 3(1) of the regulations requires that a copy of the executed agreement to be provided to the debtor by the Bank and we must state that it is a true copy thereof. You wll note that in our letter of the 4th April 2007 we have informed you that this is a true copy.

Furthermore, Reg 3(2)(b) allows for the signature to be omitted from the true copy provided

" A copy document requird by the Act must be a "true copy" Case law on that provision made it clear that a "true copy" need not be an exact copy

(Burchell v Thompson (1920) 2 KB 80 but it must contain "every material provision". Nevertheless the case law and this section does introduce a degree of flexability at least in so far as presentation of the information is concerned.

Paragraph 2(b) permits the omission of any signiture box, signiture,or date of signiture. Since the provision applies both to any copy of an executed agreement (s63) as well as to be any copy of an unexecuted agreement (s. 62) it means that the debtor (..) need never be given a copy with his

signiture on it.

 

We have provide you with a recreated agreement containing 'every material provision that was incorporated into the original agreement, thn this appears to be sufficient to honou it's obligations to provide a copy of the executed agreement under section 77 of the Act.

 

I would therefore inform you that this is a true copy of the original and therefore this is valis in Judgement "

 

They have also sent a copy of The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies Documents ) Regulations 1983 N0.1557

 

Please can anyone advise me as to what I should do now, and is what they are saying right.?

 

Lynn

[bach]

Bump Can anyone help please

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Since our client (A&L) has informed you that an original CCA is unbtainable, then Reg 3(1) of the regulations requires that a copy of the executed agreement to be provided to the debtor by the Bank and we must state that it is a true copy thereof. You wll note that in our letter of the 4th April 2007 we have informed you that this is a true copy.

Furthermore, Reg 3(2)(b) allows for the signature to be omitted from the true copy provided

 

Am i missing something her.

 

I though they have no agreement

[ODC]

Sit tight Im sure some of the legal experts will be along with a challenge to this one for you

[Curlyben]

I like it when they try this.

After in-depth research nears my findings.

 

Response to 1983 sections:

 

As you are no doubt aware the The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and copies of Documents) regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) is only applicable in conjunction with The Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations) 1983 (SI 1983/1569) and are only applicable to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sections 58,62,63,63 and 64. My request is a statutory request made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 77/78 and therefore the copy of the credit agreement requested must be a true copy of the fully executed agreement.

 

 

 

"I understand that under section 3 (b) of SI 1983 /1557 you may omit the signature box from the copy , I would point out that not having the original document it would to be impossible to verify the validity of such a document as an exact copy.

I therefore would suggest that a true copy including my signature be sent. If I am unable to verify the authenticity of the document the terms of 1974 section 77 act have not been met and the timescale for production of the documentation would still apply"

[albertini]

I'm no expert but that infers that they have provided you with a photocopy of the agreement which is accpetable.

 

Can you confirm if you received a photocopy or not?

 

EDIT:

 

Or have compleltey created a new one for you!! Never heard that before! This must be their latest wheeze! Can't find the document so let's just make another one!

 

Unbelievable!

[ODC]

Sit tight Im sure some of the legal experts will be along with a challenge to this one for you

aND AS IF BY MAGIC MY SIMIAN PAL OBLIGES:)

[ODC]

I'm no expert but that infers that they have provided you with a photocopy of the agreement which is accpetable.

 

Can you confirm if you received a photocopy or not?

A photocopy is insufficient for a court. They need the original

[rory32]

They have basically twisted some of the regulations to suit their purpose.

 

"Since our client (A&L) has informed you that an original CCA is unbtainable, then Reg 3(1) of the regulations requires that a copy of the executed agreement to be provided to the debtor by the Bank and we must state that it is a true copy thereof.

Without the original who can say what a true copy of the agreement would be.

 

I quote from the OFT

 

However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs

to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot

otherwise.

[rory32]

And to add a further quote from the OFT

 

In the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it is as unfair practice under section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed.

[bach]

Hi, Quote from their letter of 4th April 07

" I note with regret that you were not acknowledged or replied to as this was because they were ( A & L) unable to supply a copy of the agreement "

" However I do agree within the terms of Section77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act that you are entiteld to a copy of the agreement. The original is unobtainable so the matter has been passed to me and although the original is not available from our own records I produce a facsimile of the agreement. I confirm that this is a tru copy and if you require more information please contact me" un quote

 

 

I note another paragrahp in my letter recived today

Quote " We have provided you with a recreated agreement containing 'every material provision that was incorporated into the original agreement, then this appears to be sufficiant to honour it's obligations to provide a copy of the executed agreement under section 77 of the Act. I would therefore inform you that this is a true copy of the original and therefore this is a valid Judgement

 

Thoughts and opinions please

Lynn

[rory32]

However I do agree within the terms of Section77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act that you are entiteld to a copy of the agreement.

That's big of them.

 

We have provided you with a recreated agreement containing 'every material provision that was incorporated into the original agreement

And how would they be able to confirm this? It really goes back to the point "but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction."

[rory32]

Anyway surely the main point is enforcement of the debt and without a copy of the signed credit agreement they can not enforce the debt.

[bach]

You'v all been such a great help, I had a mini stroke on Saturday, feeling much better now Im sure its partly to do with all this. Tomorrow will get a letter of to the Solicitors and spend the day getting bundle ready for the Court date

Thanks again lynn

[ODC]

You'v all been such a great help, I had a mini stroke on Saturday, feeling much better now Im sure its partly to do with all this. Tomorrow will get a letter of to the Solicitors and spend the day getting bundle ready for the Court date

Thanks again lynn

Lynn the stress of all this nonsense has no doubt contributed to your TIA. If you dont feel up to arguing your case at the minute with these mongrels a good letter from your GP or consultant should get you some breathing space

[albertini]

From reading other threads (the big CCA thread last page) here it would seem that the OFT have been turned and are now contradicting their earlier advice and saying reconstructions are acceptable.

 

These are only guidelines from them and do not mean they will fly in a court of law.

[ODC]

Fortunately the law is quite clear on what is enforcable and what is not. I dont see too many DCAs rushing to Court with reconstructed documentation or poorly photocopied application forms.