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    • I have just read the smaller print on their signs. It says that you can pay at the end of your parking session. given that you have ten minutes grace period the 35 seconds could easily have been taken up with walking back to your car, switching on the engine and then driving out. Even in my younger days when I used to regularly exceed speed limits, I doubt I could have done that in 35 seconds even when I  had a TR5.
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    • Thank you for posting up the results from the sar. The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. Under Section 9 [2][a] they are supposed to specify the parking time. the photographs show your car in motion both entering and leaving the car park thus not parking. If you have to do a Witness Statement later should they finally take you to Court you will have to continue to state that even though you stayed there for several hours in a small car park and the difference between the ANPR times and the actual parking period may only be a matter of a few minutes  nevertheless the CEL have failed to comply with the Act by failing to specify the parking period. However it looks as if your appeal revealed you were the driver the deficient PCN will not help you as the driver. I suspect that it may have been an appeal from the pub that meant that CEL offered you partly a way out  by allowing you to claim you had made an error in registering your vehicle reg. number . This enabled them to reduce the charge to £20 despite them acknowledging that you hadn't registered at all. We have not seen the signs in the car park yet so we do not what is said on them and all the signs say the same thing. It would be unusual for a pub to have  a Permit Holders Only sign which may discourage casual motorists from stopping there. But if that is the sign then as it prohibits any one who doesn't have a permit, then it cannot form a contract with motorists though it may depend on how the signs are worded.
    • Defence and Counterclaim Claim number XXX Claimant Civil Enforcement Limited Defendant XXXXXXXXXXXXX   How much of the claim do you dispute? I dispute the full amount claimed as shown on the claim form.   Do you dispute this claim because you have already paid it? No, for other reasons.   Defence 1. The Defendant is the recorded keeper of XXXXXXX  2. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant. 3. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 4. In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant. 5. The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer. 6. In a further abuse of the legal process the Claimant is claiming £50 legal representative's costs, even though they have no legal representative. 7. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all. Signed I am the Defendant - I believe that the facts stated in this form are true XXXXXXXXXXX 01/05/2024   Defendant's date of birth XXXXXXXXXX   Address to which notices about this claim can be sent to you  
    • pop up on the bulk court website detailed on the claimform. [if it is not working return after the w/end or the next day if week time] . When you select ‘Register’, you will be taken to a screen titled ‘Sign in using Government Gateway’.  Choose ‘Create sign in details’ to register for the first time.  You will be asked to provide your name, email address, set a password and a memorable recovery word. You will be emailed your Government Gateway 12-digit User ID.  You should make a note of your memorable word, or password as these are not included in the email.<<**IMPORTANT**  then log in to the bulk court Website .  select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box. .  then using the details required from the claimform . defend all leave jurisdiction unticked  you DO NOT file a defence at this time [BUT you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 ] click thru to the end confirm and exit the website .get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim type your name ONLY no need to sign anything .you DO NOT await the return of paperwork. you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.
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Police "7 day wonder"


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On the 7th I was stopped on a random stop check by the police and because my bike flags up as not having insurance on thier systems i have to take my documents to the station (i am insured have all the docs).

 

However on the form they gave me it is dated 7/1/07...

 

Due to the error in the document does that make it void?

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Guest Gertie100

Ahhh! Ummm, I had to produce my documents last year after an accident and I'm pretty sure that they only looked at my photo license, however I'm sure that someone more knowledgable than me will be able to confirm that!

(the reason I remember is because I have no idea where in the house it is, so went without it to see what would happen)

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Oh for heaven's sake.

 

You have been given a producer and the PC has made a minor and common error with the date that he issued it. If you don't produce and it goes to Court, the PC's statement will state they he issued it on the correct date (which is true) and if you try and argue the date on the piece of paper, the Slip Rule will apply that allows the Court to make minor corrections.

 

Take the docs down to the Police Station that you nominated and get them checked. Explain the lack of your paper counterpart - once they have your driver number, they can get a copy of your driver record anyway. They may give you an extension to obtain the paper counterpart if they really want to see it.

 

In any case, you will need to replace the paper counterpart. Temper the minimal cost with the thought that the PC, on finding no insurance listed, could have S.59 siezed the bike there and then; and left you to walk. Following which, you could recalim it from the pound after producing the valid insurance certificate and paying the recovery fee.

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the thought that the PC, on finding no insurance listed, could have S.59 siezed the bike there and then; and left you to walk. Following which, you could recalim it from the pound after producing the valid insurance certificate and paying the recovery fee.

 

It is for this reason that I have photocopies of my insurance certs with me whether I am on my bike or in my car. I just don't trust the technology!

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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I've found my counter part now so no need to try and ween out of it, as for seizing my motorbike when they stopped me i was no more than 200 yards from my house at 11pm, walking wouldnt have been an issue ;) the thing that got me the most is I offered to go to my house to produce my certificate.

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I've found my counter part now so no need to try and ween out of it, as for seizing my motorbike when they stopped me i was no more than 200 yards from my house at 11pm, walking wouldnt have been an issue ;) the thing that got me the most is I offered to go to my house to produce my certificate.

 

 

I think the pound would have been a bit further to walk to the next day! ;)

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just a point

police are relying on there system for correct documentation

suppose you get stopped and even if you have the correct documentation, the police computer tells them you have no insurance. the car gets towed

do you have to pay recovery fee , storage fee etc

after all this is down to the police computer getting it wrong

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This is somewhat of the beam but here goes. I was talking to a friend and told him that I had seen on here reference to an motor accident in a private car park and the item said that it was no concern of the police and that it was a private matter.

My friend told me that he had had an accident in a Morrisons car park with a car driven by a woman who was causing an obstuction. She took the matter up with the police and it ended up in court. my friend was fined and given 5 penalty points for the accident and failing to notify the police . Does any one know if this is correct.

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This is somewhat of the beam but here goes. I was talking to a friend and told him that I had seen on here reference to an motor accident in a private car park and the item said that it was no concern of the police and that it was a private matter.

My friend told me that he had had an accident in a Morrisons car park with a car driven by a woman who was causing an obstuction. She took the matter up with the police and it ended up in court. my friend was fined and given 5 penalty points for the accident and failing to notify the police . Does any one know if this is correct.

 

Yes it is - It is a common misconception that accidents in car parks are not reportable - They are.

 

after all this is down to the police computer getting it wrong
Sorry to burst your bubble but it is DVLA that have the records wrong

 

If you were able to produce a valid certificate for the time you had the vehicle on the road then the storage should be borne by the Police but they may choose not to - Doubt it though

 

The legal requirement to produce your documents is done when the officer has requested them. The "producer" is merely a way of recording the request. He could have written it on the back of a fag packet and the request would still be lawful

 

So in essence you have 7 days from midnight that night to produce the documents requested. If you have no insurance then you will to have to suffer the consequences

 

HTH

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I have to disagree with the last post. The police computer ofter run up to 3months behind on insurance and tax. It is down to the systems in place. It might be that the bike was off the road and only put on recently hence why police have no records of insurance.

 

THe police computer also has problems tracking the insurance status of company vehicles.

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I have to disagree with the last post. Lol.

 

The 'Police Computer' is not the Police computer, but the Motor Insurer's Database run by the Motor Insurers Information Centre to whom all insurers contribute information and to which the Police have access. This system works in 'real' time and is instantaneous.

 

There are no 'issues' with Company owned vehicles being shown on this database, the only issue is that in many cases on fleet insurance and motor trade insurance policies the onus is on the POLICYHOLDER to update the information. Many policyholders do not appreciate this fact.

 

You can check to see that your vehicle is on the database at:-

 

ASKMID

 

 

H

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I have to disagree with the last post. Lol.

 

The 'Police Computer' is not the Police computer, but the Motor Insurer's Database run by the Motor Insurers Information Centre to whom all insurers contribute information and to which the Police have access. This system works in 'real' time and is instantaneous.

 

H

 

Sorry to have confused you - The vehicle records on PNC are retrieved from DVLA directly - The Insurance is, as you rightly say, taken from the MIB records

 

There is a lot of controversy over the accuracy of the records and I know Police Officers that will take the side of caution if the vehicle is shown as not having any insurance - Instead they will issue a producer like the OP got.

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The DVLA do not hold insurance records.

 

They have many failings, but this isn't one of them

 

Hence why I corrected myself

 

Sorry to have confused you - The vehicle records on PNC are retrieved from DVLA directly - The Insurance is, as you rightly say, taken from the MIB records
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Well that is a matter of great debate - It may take some time for your insurance to show up on the database but you are insured

 

The system is not without its problems and the Police have to rely on the common sense of the officer dealing. If it happens I would be interested to see how you get on ;)

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but the police are acting on info supplied

if incorrect, who pays towing ,storage fees etc

 

The database isn't the be all and end all. It would depend on the circumstances; whether the other docs were in order; demeanour of driver; how long has the car been owned; etc.

 

At the end of the day the PC concerned has the option of

 

1) NFA

2) Producer

3) Sieze

 

depending on his suspicions and 'feel' for the situation.

 

If (3), then the person collecting the vehicle is liable for the charges. It may be unfair, but it is the law.

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