CCJ/Debenhams cards/bains+earnst/1st credit/CL FINANCE/bailiffs

[scorterooney]

ive got two cca requests on the go alongside a seperate defence against a first credit claim so whilst the clocks ticking on those and i cant do anything i thought id start to have a look at some of the other debts i have and what can be done about them.

 

So then - A long long time ago both me and my wife had Debenhams cards, date wise i would estimate they were taken out around 1998. We defaulted badly around 2002 when son was born and wife was ill and i gave up work. We eventually set up a DMP with Bains and Ernst which paid debenhams an amount but stopped paying that around 2003.

 

In 2006 CL FINANCE popped up and started hassling us for the debts (2 cards both with £1100 or thereabouts on possibly made up of a fair amount of charges) and stuck CCJ's on each one.

 

We eventually agreed to pay £5 a month on each account and this has been paid religously since october 06 to date other than one screw up on my account where i missed a payment and got a bailiff at the door demanding £100 - which i paid.

 

So id say that on one card the debt has been reduced by £75 and the other card £175 since we started paying again.

 

So bearing in mind they both have CCJ's on them what options are open to me and what avenues, if any, can i explore regarding these two debts.

[scorterooney]

and another thing which typing the above has got me thinking.

 

What exactly is a CCJ and how does it have a hold on you ?

 

as an example - I had a CCJ on my debenhams card, When i didnt pay one months £5 A bailiff turned up demanding payment of £100 + £25 bailiff fees otherwose he would remove goods.

 

Why would he of only demanded £100 when the actuall amount owed was more like £900 ?

 

Does this mean that CL finance only got a CCJ for £100 and if that is the case, now i have paid that £100 is the CCJ no longer there ?

 

Or am i missing the point lol ??

[spamheed]

A CCJ is a debt that won't go away, it doesn't become statute barred and wont go away until it's paid.

 

The CCJ papaers will have the full value of the amount awarded by the judge. I would imagine it will be for the full amount. The bailiff would have sought payment to bring your account up to date, not to settle the account in full. This being the case, I would reckon on the CCJ still being there, just with slightly less owing on it.

 

If you have a doubt about the amounts outstanding, contact CL and request a statement, also check with the court to see if a copy of the paperwork can be obtained

[scorterooney]

Thanks for that.

 

So is it worth chasing a ccj'd debt for a cca or would any absence of cca be irrelevant due to ccj being present ?

 

Would a better avenue to take be chasing for a full SAR and then trying to get the amount reduced by having charges removed etc ?

 

I am thinking out loud and a better option alltogether may be to continue paying the £5 as they are happy with that and dont hassle for more etc lol.

 

Its just tht the more you read and the more you get into the hobby of DCA abuse lol, the more you think a bout what options may be available

[spamheed]

It is assumed that when the DCA/original creditor applied for the CCJ they presented the correct documentation. This is rarely the case.

 

Asking for a CCA on a CCJ enforced debt is worth it only if you wish to stir things up a bit and make them work for their money. the positive side is that there is really nothing they can do to punish you for the request and they must legally comply with the request.

 

An SAR will allow you to check how much in charges has been applied to the account with a view to recovery

[scorterooney]

Cheers spamheed

 

I think ill pursue the charges aspect as im not overly othered about getting out of paying the debt and the £5 a month we are paying is affordalble.

 

Who do you think i should send the SAR to ?

Its a debenhams card, bills were paid to GE Capital, CL finance chased me for the outstanding amount and i pay my standing order to The Lewis Group - All slightly confusing lol

[spamheed]

I'd start with the original creditor, since it was they who applied the charges, however there is a train of thought that says whoever owns the debt is liable for the charges.

 

Since it was GE Capital who applied the charges, I'd start there

[scorterooney]

I'd start with the original creditor, since it was they who applied the charges, however there is a train of thought that says whoever owns the debt is liable for the charges.

 

Since it was GE Capital who applied the charges, I'd start there

 

Cool , that does seem the logical place to start So ill get on with that and see where it takes me

 

Will update as and when i hear anything back

 

thanks again

[JOSH_IOU]

A CCJ is an order made by a County Court Judge.

[h8_Halifax]

It is assumed that when the DCA/original creditor applied for the CCJ they presented the correct documentation. This is rarely the case.

 

... they must legally comply with the request.

 

 

and if they don't or can't comply with the request for a signed (and dated?) CCA?

what happens then?

stop paying the CCJ?

[JOSH_IOU]

Sounds like you have accepted the debt.

 

How many charges have they applied to the debt?

[spamheed]

and if they don't or can't comply with the request for a signed (and dated?) CCA?

what happens then?

stop paying the CCJ?

 

Don't stop paying the debt, it will open the door to more damaging action. Defaulting on a CCJ allows a Creditor access to Attachments of earnings, property charges, bailiff actions and a few other nasty little items. Keep paying the debt.

 

Defaulting on a CCA does not in any way undermine a CCJ once it is in place.

 

a Court sees a CCJ as a "Proven Debt" ie. the Creditor has produced all of the proof they need to in order to establish title to the debt and confirm your liability to the debt.

 

In other words, the creditor has went before the judge and said, "this person owes us this amount of money and we can prove it"

 

In truth the process is rather different. If you do not defend against the creditor in court, it is deemed that you are as accepting the debt by default and the DCA's generally do not have to supply supporting documents. the CCJ goes through as default, and you are in debt for a long time to come - generally without recourse. it would be at this stage of the proceedings that a creditor defaulting on a CCA request would be used as part of the defence.

 

if you do not act very quickly after a CCJ has been awarded, the chances of a set aside are extremely slim for this reason only. unless there was some flaw in the Court process, the amounts were criminally incorrect, or the creditor acted unfairly and/or underhand (provable), there is no point in going after a CCJ set aside.

 

If it has been a long time since the CCJ was awarded (ie years rather than months) and no payment or acknowledgement has been made to the creditor, then it may be that they would have to explain to a judge prior to being allowed to collect on the CCJ, a little bit similar to statute barring

[joshuaf1968]

I CCA's a large DCA towards the end of last year.

 

They failed to provide the CCA so I asked the Court to set aside the CCJ.

 

The hearing was adjourned cos the DCA did not have their paperwork in order and had not responded.

 

They were given some time to sort it out and we were due back in Feb.

 

Since then they have written saying they will not collect on the debt and they have filed to the Court stating they agree to the set aside. :D :D

 

The judge was impressed with the CCA defence but was a little unsure how to proceed. It is a relatively untested area....the CCA act that states a debt cannot be collected with or without an order from the Court helped sway the situation.

[JOSH_IOU]

Its a well tested area. I here from 10's of people a day getting CCJ's removed.

 

How much was actual debt and how much was charges?

[renegotiation]

ive got two cca requests on the go alongside a seperate defence against a first credit claim so whilst the clocks ticking on those and i cant do anything i thought id start to have a look at some of the other debts i have and what can be done about them.

 

So then - A long long time ago both me and my wife had Debenhams cards, date wise i would estimate they were taken out around 1998. We defaulted badly around 2002 when son was born and wife was ill and i gave up work. We eventually set up a DMP with Bains and Ernst which paid debenhams an amount but stopped paying that around 2003.

 

In 2006 CL FINANCE popped up and started hassling us for the debts (2 cards both with £1100 or thereabouts on possibly made up of a fair amount of charges) and stuck CCJ's on each one.

 

We eventually agreed to pay £5 a month on each account and this has been paid religously since october 06 to date other than one screw up on my account where i missed a payment and got a bailiff at the door demanding £100 - which i paid.

 

So id say that on one card the debt has been reduced by £75 and the other card £175 since we started paying again.

 

So bearing in mind they both have CCJ's on them what options are open to me and what avenues, if any, can i explore regarding these two debts.

 

 

Did you defend at the time of the CCJ's? If you didn't it 'may' be good reason to use the CCA route for a set aside. Maybe you were completely unaware of the court action or were too unwell to defend? I think there have been some threads on here about this.

 

Was a long time composing. Those 2 beat me to it!

[JOSH_IOU]

Its worth noting.

 

 

Though this is a well tested area this judge may not have had any experience in this area before.

[cheesepie]

I've got exactly the same problem as you with (originally)the same company. Howard Cohen are acting for CL Finance now. I've been on to the National Debtline and they've said even though I have CCJ's, I can still CCA them and if they can't produce, then I need to get form N244 (not N245 as most people think!)-there is a charge for this form unless you receive benefits- from the Court. This process takes the CCJ back to the begining.

I phoned the Court to ask if this was correct, and they said yes it is and there is no time limit.

I don't know if your CCJ's went through Northampton Court, but just for your information, all claims made through this Court bulk centre do not have to have a CCA attached.

 

Hope this helps.

[h8_Halifax]

great help by everyone, many, MANY thanks.

 

actually, i have two, well three, debts, all from the same era.

one with barclaycard that was only a couple of months away from vanishing into the 6 year pit - until Lowell appeared on the scene. please ignore this debt for this thread.

 

the other two are subject to a CCJ and are what i was asking about.

 

answering a few of the q's:

 

i went to court but i was unrepresented and the proceedings seemed to be almost in a different room. as if i was just watching it all through a one way mirror.

 

it wasn't in the northampton court but northern manchester.

 

the court case was years ago and i have been paying the amounts the court awarded to them ever since.

 

the debt was two tsb credit cards, together totaling about £4,750

 

i'm sure they must have added various charges, legal fees, solicitors costs, etc but it's all so long ago that i really don't remember.

 

in fact, this happened so long ago that finding any of the paperwork is going to be a mammoth task. although, if i apply to the courts to reduce the payments then i would guess that enough of the information will come to light for me to request a CCA.

[JOSH_IOU]

It may be more worth your while doing a Data Acces Request.

 

It costs £10 but you get more info.

[JOSH_IOU]

try this letter

======================

 

 

[your address]

 

 

 

[their address]

 

 

[DATE]

 

 

 

 

Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

Loan Reference number: xxxxxxxxx (or multiple numbers if more than one account)

 

 

Please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to the history with your organisation. Including any charges you or any other organisation has added in relation to the CCJ in relation to the above reference number.

 

 

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, then I shall be reclaiming them, and also reclaiming the enclosed £10 Data Protection Act subject access request fee.

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

I would be happy to collect the Data from my local branch.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

[signature]

 

 

[name]

[gizmo111]

Did you defend at the time of the CCJ's? If you didn't it 'may' be good reason to use the CCA route for a set aside. Maybe you were completely unaware of the court action or were too unwell to defend? I think there have been some threads on here about this.

 

Was a long time composing. Those 2 beat me to it!

 

The OP has been paying an agree amount for some time. No grounds for set a side IMO

 

.

I don't know if your CCJ's went through Northampton Court, but just for your information, all claims made through this Court bulk centre do not have to have a CCA attached.

Hope this helps.

 

For information, no POC has to have the actual CCA attached, whatever court the claim is lodged in. It is up to the defendant to defend the POC by disputing the CCA existence/validity(if this is the route they wish to defend on), and for the claimant to produce relevant documentation at the bundle stage.

[renegotiation]

The OP has been paying an agree amount for some time. No grounds for set a side IMO

 

 

 

For information, no POC has to have the actual CCA attached, whatever court the claim is lodged in. It is up to the defendant to defend the POC by disputing the CCA existence/validity(if this is the route they wish to defend on), and for the claimant to produce relevant documentation at the bundle stage.

 

Why would time be a major factor? Anyhow, if it's worked for other people Judges have obviously found that it is grounds for a set aside. Proof is in the pudding. Personally, I certainly wouldn't be dissuaded from trying.

[gizmo111]

Why would time be a major factor? Anyhow, if it's worked for other people Judges have obviously found that it is grounds for a set aside. Proof is in the pudding. Personally, I certainly wouldn't be dissuaded from trying.

 

Have you exmples of where someone has been paying a CCJ for some time,and been able to get the CCJ set aside?

[renegotiation]

Have you exmples of where someone has been paying a CCJ for some time,and been able to get the CCJ set aside?

 

'If' my memory serves me correctly I think I have seen a thread on here that quoted 2 and a half years. It's always tedious to trawl through the archives though. What do you define as 'some time'? Do you have any examples of the opposite? We paid ripoff bank charges for a long time. It didn't make it biblical.

 

I have just asked Josh in this thread about the length of time involved. This wasn't the thread I had in my mind though.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/cabot/127800-some-good-news-share.html

[scorterooney]

Reading this with lots of interest so cheers for the posts.

 

Still not sure which way to go though so ill continue reading other threads and weigh up my options.

 

thanks for all yoru posts