Rec Default notice and CCA reply from Bos today - pls advise

[angel_1]

Am in the processing of editing info on photobucket ==================

 

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp159/aquarian1964/bosdef-1.jpg

 

i have received a default notice today paperwork

 

 

 

remedy needed

 

i will catch the postlady tomorrow to see if she will sign the envelope to say she only delivered to me today

 

im a bit confused on whether this is a valid DN ref the 14 days

 

are they full days or working days etc

 

asking for an amount to be paid

 

if the action is taken before the date shown no further enforcement action will be taken in respect of this breach

 

however, if dont take action then further action MAy be taken ie

 

terminate agreement, and i must pay the full amount owing, if i dont may take legal proceedings or instruct dca

 

then later its saying if amount is not paid within 28 days of the date of the letter or made satisfactory proposals to do so, will passs details of the default to cra's

 

gives info ref of current oft info sheet on default, blah blah

 

*******

 

in a seperate envelope got my CCA they enclose supposed current T&C's yes with showing the 12.00 default amounts - has no date of current date

 

also enclosed headed as card - conditions of use, which shows the 25.00 default fee amounts, has no dates of commencement

 

the main letter states - enclosed a copy of the executed agreement - but no copy enclosed

 

then goes on to say

as at the date of this letter

 

balance

credit limit of

the current interest rates

the arrears on the acc

full amount currently payable

1% min or amount equal to the total

 

then big in bold writing -

 

Pls note that the info we have provided you with all the info we are reqd to provide you with under section 78 of the cca ac, Pls note we are not req to provide a copy of the original signed agreement under sec 78 of the cca act

 

and thats it folks

 

 

Where do i go from here??

 

1. is the Dn not valid re time scales?

2. does this mean they dont have a copy of my original agreement with my signature and therefore trying to flannel me?

3. do i dispute this as a complaint and tell them they didnt enclose the copy of the executed agreement, since they are telling me they dont need to provide my signature are they more or less saying they dont have it ?>

4. Should i let them take me to court and battle it there?

5. Today i was in the process of sending them a SARS anyway so best to continue with that then too, and see what that comes back with#?>?

 

Many thanks for your advice, i think it will make it clearer in my mind what all this now means

 

Ciao for now MAZ

Edited February 5, 2009 by angel_1

[creditcardmug]

They havent given you 14 days to remedy, you would have had to have received it the same day as it was written, also if they sent it normal post they have no proof of service, that's before ive even seen it. Dont tell them this though.

 

Can you post it up, and the agreement as well? there may be other things which make it invalid.

[angel_1]

Many thanks for your quick reply creditcardmug

 

 

i was hoping id got my dates right and there were def out...

 

i will attempt to scan and delete all personal info, ta muchly be back asap no quick on this scanning lark

 

pls bear with me thanks maz

[angel_1]

They havent given you 14 days to remedy, you would have had to have received it the same day as it was written, also if they sent it normal post they have no proof of service, that's before ive even seen it. Dont tell them this though.

 

Can you post it up, and the agreement as well? there may be other things which make it invalid.

 

 

hiya creditcardmug

 

have scanned the dn and the main letter, cannot scan any cca not enclosed,

 

only enclosed the copies of my agreement which shows parties

 

however i have noticed they have always addressed me with my first and middle name yet they have only used my first name in these copies of agreements. and my full address,

 

previous letters sent to me always have the first and middle name and my card only has my first name, but i know i would have signed any agreement as my first and middle name and surname

 

have they done a bad cut and paste job here??

 

Also no dates of when the agreement was opened in any of the letters or paperwork so when did i actually get this agreement and hence was it only an application and they cant find it ?

 

surely record keeping at any bank with such live agreeement should be kept for fraud and moneylaundering regulations anyway,

 

i await your further advice many thanks maz

[creditcardmug]

The scan with "rapid reply card" heading says Brarclays not Bank of Scotland, can you shed any light on this?

 

There are no prescribed terms anywhere as far as i can see, i cant read the 4th item at all.

[creditcardmug]

Also the bits in the DN which are underlined should be in a larger font and in bold, to be in the prescribed format

[angel_1]

The scan with "rapid reply card" heading says Brarclays not Bank of Scotland, can you shed any light on this?

 

There are no prescribed terms anywhere as far as i can see, i cant read the 4th item at all.

 

 

hiya pls bear with me, i dont know how i can only scan the relevant info for each thread and what you are seeing is another of my scans on that photobucket site

 

i have also a mbna ones there too, as well as the 2 pages of the default notice plus 1 page of the letter i got, they all should be there,

 

im back,,ive clicked on the link in my first post above, i got to see page 1 of 10 images which is the letter, then page 2 of 10 is the second page of the dn and then 3 of 10 is the first page of the dn

 

the other images are of my other cards,

 

thats all ive so far scanned on the bos card

 

thanks for looking and im sorry its not that clear

[angel_1]

Also the bits in the DN which are underlined should be in a larger font and in bold, to be in the prescribed format

 

hiya again CCM

 

just to clarify, the bits underlined are in a bigger font but not BOLD only the same ink type as the main letter

 

thanks again maz

[creditcardmug]

Heres the info on DNs to help you,

 

35. Section 2 (5) and (6) of the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 sets out the following

(5) Where any statement is required to be in a form specified in a Schedule to these Regulations and is reproduced in the notice, then apart from any heading to the notice, trade names or names of parties to the agreement-

 

(a) the lettering in the statement shall be afforded more prominence (whether by capital letters, underlining, large or bold print or otherwise) than any other lettering in the notice; and

 

(b) where words are both shown in capital letters and underlined in any statement specified in a Schedule to these Regulations, they shall be afforded yet more prominence.

 

(6) The wording in any such statement shall be reproduced in the notice without any alteration or addition, and in relation to any statement to be contained in the notice the requirements of any note shall be complied with, except that the words "the creditor" may be replaced by the name of the creditor, by the expression by which he is referred to in the agreement or by an appropriate pronoun, and any consequential changes to pronouns and verbs may be used.

36. The notice fails to include the following statement in the form as shown

 

"IF THE ACTION REQUIRED BY THIS NOTICE IS TAKEN BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN NO FURTHER ENFORCEMENT ACTION WILL BE TAKEN IN RESPECT OF THE BREACH

 

37. Also the notice fails to set out the statement as set out below

 

"IF YOU DO NOT TAKE THE ACTION REQUIRED BY THIS NOTICE BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN THEN THE FURTHER ACTION SET OUT BELOW MAY BE TAKEN AGAINST YOU [OR A SURETY]"

 

 

38. The statements referred to in points 36 & 37 are laid out in schedule 2 of Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561)

 

39. For a creditor to be entitled to terminate a regulated credit agreement where there is a breach, demand repayment in full or take any legal action to recover any monies due under the agreement, a creditor must serve a Default Notice under section 87(1) CCA 1974 which states

(1) Service of a notice on the debtor or hirer in accordance with section 88 (a "default notice ") is necessary before the creditor or owner can become entitled, by reason of any breach by the debtor or hirer of a regulated agreement,-

(a) to terminate the agreement, or

 

(b) to demand earlier payment of any sum, or

 

© to recover possession of any goods or land, or

 

(d) to treat any right conferred on the debtor or hirer by the agreement as terminated, restricted or deferred, or

 

(e)to enforce any security.

40. I note the opening part of section 88(1), which states

88. Contents and effect of default notice.

 

- (1) The default notice must be in the prescribed form.......

The word must makes it clear that no variation is acceptable. Therefore it cannot be dispensed with as a De Minimus issue

 

 

 

41. I note that the regulations do not allow any variation in the form of these statements and there fore it is suggested that where the statements are not as laid down in the regulations the default notice is rendered invalid as a consequence

 

[angel_1]

hello CCM

 

you are very kind thankyou was hunting around for the regs, so now i can print off what you have given to me, as this is my first default rec, i will use it as my learning curve

 

 

do you wish me to copy all the terms and conditions i have been sent? there are no dates, only way i can see a diff is the charges of 25.00 and 12.00 on the seperate copies

 

ciao for now maz

[creditcardmug]

No there's no need, basically the prescribed terms must be within the four corners of the agreement you signed to be enforceable.

 

So really then the DN is flawed on several counts, and they don't have an enforceable agreement it seems..........bit of a result id say:D

[angel_1]

No there's no need, basically the prescribed terms must be within the four corners of the agreement you signed to be enforceable.

 

So really then the DN is flawed on several counts, and they don't have an enforceable agreement it seems..........bit of a result id say:D

 

 

hiya CCM

 

thank you so much, ive sent you a Tickle..lol

 

now im off from the ground - let me get this straight in my head

 

the DN is flawed on many counts, so i dont need to pay it and get myself even more stressed cos its too much

 

plus they dont actually have any cca and trying to pass off the copies of the agreements as the executed agreements and purtaining to be legal documents

 

oh so they could now start court action do you think ?

 

what is my best form of attack now - its one of my biggest debts im now scared even though i cant believe they wont produce the cca at some later point - yet i feel do i just wait on what next action they now take

 

i dont mind if i got all the info to defend myself in court im sure ill get all the necessary help here

 

should i still continue to send the sars today, as ive also got the halifax cc card and also wish to claim my charges on a halifax account,

 

again im in awe of all this today cant believe it

 

keep happy ciaoooooooooooooooooo MAZ yipeeeeeeeeeeeee:D

[creditcardmug]

Send them this by recorded, lets see what they come up with next.

 

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

 

Your ref: XXX

 

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

__________________

[angel_1]

many thanks off to do that letter now

 

and yes will send it Recorded delivery - i suppose cant worry about the default for the time being and im guessing they they up their phone calls but i can give them another opportunity and like you say see what they throw at me next

 

ta muchly ciao for now MAZ

[citizenB]

If they start with the telephone calls Maz, then send them the telephone harassment letter from the following link.

 

It is the 3rd (last link) in post number 6. The link should take you straight to that post though.

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1318665.html

 

As CCM has said, the DN is full of flaws. If you can get the post person to sign it to say it was delivered today, great . But keep the envelope anyway. If they have used the business post, the Royal Mail Website actually states that it is a 3-5 day service and not 1-2 that proper 1st class is supposed to be.

 

The length of time it has taken to be received by you is another nail but incidental as they didnt allow sufficient time for posting at all.

[angel_1]

Thanks everyone i kind of back from dreamland now

 

i know realise its going to be a bit of a rocky road but i know with my friends here i know i can face it

 

the calls have already started from last week, but will take your advice CB

 

i feel i can really get to grips with all this once ive had a bit of a good nights sleep,

 

have a fun day all tomorrow and cheers Ciao MAZ;)

[angel_1]

hiya creditcardmug and CB

 

hme constant phone calls, not answering them, so planning my next move and awaiting reply too

 

have a fun day all maz

[fedup74]

Subbing.

 

 

Good luck maz:)

[millymollymoo]

subbing same here

[angel_1]

:cool:Thanks to all who have subbed, if anything i hope my journey helps others too,

 

tarra for now maz

[millymollymoo]

THEY ARE BEING VERY NAUGHTY .

 

I know that the apparent original first agreemnts that they have sent me along with a miraculous NEW agreement [are they truly in the belief that this was signed or ever received!!!]are IMO conjectured reconstructed agreements and is NOT a true copy of the original , but at the mo my aim is for them to commit a naughty act and admit that this is a copy of the true agreement as they have only said 'a copy' and not used the word 'true' drop them in it.

naughty naughty I like the added parties to the agreement too on the top typed up rubbish that has bank of Scotland - conditions of use. They are admitting if you read carefully by saying that is all they are required to send under section 78, referring to signature box and date and signatures being nowhere to be seen.

 

Now what are they hiding - my bet is NO SIGNATURE!!!! If they had it they would be oh so gleeful in showing it!!!

 

Wishing you lots and lots of luck as I am too on the same merry path apart from the fact that they said my account was terminated in aletter [blair, oliver, scott] and demanded...wait for it the pricely sum of I worked out to be roughly the arrears. they DID not claim the full balance.:D

 

The statement of account provided with my CCA shows the account is active so they have obviously realised their boo boo. But TOUGH I have aletter that says terminated on a small sum declaring asking for just that so I think a letter is in order to remind them that they cannot untermiate an account without a new signed agreement.

 

Milly X

[lexis200]

Edited December 17, 2008 by lexis200
just because...

[millymollymoo]

y the way angel are they still processing your account?

 

Milly X

[angel_1]

hiya millymollymoo

 

well got the statement where they have added charges etc, but ive informed them account in dispute anyway and sent harassment letter

 

so not paid on the default sum, and now waiting on termination notice, if they do that or not

 

waiting game i guess,

 

keep at it girl good luck too

 

laters angel x:wink:

[millymollymoo]

You too hunny XXX :)They are devious for sure:mad: terminated mine and still processing as I received a monthly statement. Why, cos they want to issue a default as they didnt before terminating mine and not for the full balance. so they are up to dirty tricks in an attempt to claim what they have blown their rights to under the CCAct.They actually think that they can get away with it to it seems reactivate and then reterminate:rolleyes:

 

Milly XXX

Edited December 17, 2008 by millymollymoo