Being taken to court for natwest joint OD debt - advice please

[The Phantom]

Hi

maybe someone can give me some advice here.

I have got some debts which are in joint names with my husband.

My husband is declared bankrupt but I am not. (He has declared himself bankrupt)

The bank (Nat West) has stopped chasing him about it but is now just coming to me. I have made them an offer of reduced payments which they have turned down and said they will take me to court.

I work part time and have two young children. The house is part of my husbands bankruptcy estate and in the hands of the receiver. (It is in negative equity and the receiver has indicated he may sell the interest back to me for £1.- but this has not gone through yet)

I am not worried about them taking me to court as I have offered them as much as I could afford on my part time wages so they will not get more by taking me to court, but when this happens, what do I do, how do I present my case to a judge. I have no idea what is going to happen next

Can they take me to court for the full amount although it is in joint names with a declared bankrupt or just for half ? If I applied for a loan of this amount they would never agree to it on my wages, is it reasonable to take me to court to repay the lot on my own ?

Any ideas ? HELP !!

[lookinforinfo]

If the bank can see they are going to get nothing from your husband then

they will turn to you. It may be that they know you are going to acquire the house. If they do take you to Court, don't worry you won't need an army of

lawyers to fight your case. Just explain exactly what is going on in your life.

Husband declared bankrupt, you with low income and two children to bring up. you will need to give them a list of the money that comes in to the

house, and what goes out. And from that the judge will decide what is

fair. And itmay be that he will decide you do not need to pay as much as you are currently offering. So the bank would have to think very carefully before

going to court. They are trying to bully you into paying more than you are

offering.

I am unfamiliar with bankruptcy cases. Perhaps someone with knowledge could advise you on your situation. For instance, if your husband has no

money to pay anything back to his debtors, does that mean that they

cannot chase your husband ever again for the debt, but they can you?

[LondonPam]

As your husband has been made bankrupt then any debt that he has in HIS name ONLY will form part of his bankrupcy. His creditors will not be able to chase him for any of these debts in the future. However, if you have any debts that are in joint names then the creditors can come to you for the FULL amount regardless of your husbands circumstances.

[The Phantom]

Yes, the CAB has already advised us now that all my husbands debts will be written off (everything that is in his name) but the joint debt with Nat West will be rolled onto me in full and they may try to get a charge on the house

Which apparently we don't have to agree to voluntarily and if the judge rules I should make level payments and actually maintain these payments they can't force a charge either....(?)

I earn £1000. - pcm of which £500.- are for childcare alone, so my net income is £500.- pcm. (I only work part-time because of the kids) I have offered them £27.- pcm which is really the absolut most I can afford and I have sent them a budget sheet / planner as well to look at. In response they just sent me a letter saying they won't accept it because as per the Banking Code they don't have to accept offers from debtors and they will now take me to court for the whole debt. It just leaves me scratching my head as they won't get more by taking me to court, probably rather less than that so I am just puzzled.

As I have never been to court the only thing I was worried about is what to say or what to write when the papers come through but apparently the CAB can help with filling them out, too. But the above posts are already helpful.

I already saw me standing accused in front of a judge being asked if I would like to make a final statement before sentence is being passed and I am being taken away.... ;-)

[demon_x_slash]

As lookinforinfo said above, though, even if she is liable for the full amount of the joint debts, the judge is hardly going to be unsympathetic to a lady with a low income and two children to support. They can't ask for more than she can afford, and the amount payable each month may be lower anyway.

Just a little 'don't panic' reminder, I find it helps

[LondonPam]

As the previous post says, don't panic over this. You often find that courts are sympathetic to those that are obviously trying to pay their debts. If I were you I would write an income and expenditure document, stating exactly what you take home and what you have to pay out. Be realistic and whatever you have left should be pro-rata'd against your debts. This way, if it goes to court, you can show the judge that you are being fair with all your creditors and honest in what you can pay.

Good luck.

[sequenci]

In response they just sent me a letter saying they won't accept it because as per the Banking Code they don't have to accept offers from

 

well i'm not sure where in the banking code it states that!

 

ultimately with a ccj you will fill in your expenditure and make an offer of payments to the creditor. if they refuse it will then be down to the court staff to decide a "just" level of payment. so long as you keep up with these payments then the creditor should not be able to obtain a charging order. this has been confirmed in a recent case of mercantile credit v ellis.

 

i would also point out to these jokers that they DO need to be reasonble and sympathetic and i would consider raising a complaint to the banking code standards board (0845 230 9694)

 

good luck!

[The Phantom]

I have now used a template from ths website regarding the overriding objectives that requires both parties to act reasonably to avoid the start of proceedings. I have sent them that letter telling them I will ask the judge to look at this under these objectives as I feel they are acting unreasonably to refuse my offer as they have had a budget planner and have been advised of my circumstances. So I will see what they say to that and if still no good, then I guess they will have to see if a CCJ gets them anymore (which I know it won't as I have no more to offer them)

[sequenci]

still consider complaining further. the more people that do should stop big firms like this from being nasty.

[lookinforinfo]

Nicole, my own view is that wiser heads in the bank will decide that a court case is not a good idea. They run the risk of getting a kicking from the judge; having the monthly repayment reduced;and not being awarded costs against

you.

I may be wrong of course, but then you will have something like 6 weeks notice before the case is heard. Should it happen, let us know and we will

give you some more advice that will help to reduce your fears. Bear in mind too that theses cases are nothing like the ones you see on films or television. They are as informal and relaxed as it gets within a Court setting.

You do not go into the dock, nor do you have to swear on the Bible etc.

You just have to be yourself and answer the few questions the judge asks

of you. There is no cross examination either.

Please keep all their letters so that you can show the judge the pressure they

are putting you under.

But I still don't see a court case happening.

[The Phantom]

No, because they must realize that it is not getting them anymore money in any case.

I have repeatedly written them letters explaining the situation, sent budget statements and more letters but what I get back is either in no relation to what I have written (standard print-off from their system threatening default notices, debt collection agencies and court action) or in one letter they just said they don't have to take offers anyway from debtors according to their banking code and will take legal action against me now. Once I got two letters on two consecutive days with exactly the same wording but a different posting date. Someone must have pressed a button twice or something.

Sometimes I wonder whether there is someone there who has actually read (and taken in) what I have told them or whether they just print off letters with contents that somewhat remotely relate to the letter they got ? Otherwise I cannot understand what is happening. It is bizarre

[lookinforinfo]

Take all the letters [including copies of yours to them]to your local Trading

Standards Office and see what they think.

[emmaf01]

Hi Nicole99.

Now don't think any less of me for it, but I have been to court over a debt, and as it was council tax they could legally have put me in prison- they can't for normal debt!

 

I went in, promised to tell the truth etc. I explained that I got into the debt through a relationship breakdown, was on benefits, was quite willing to pay what I could afford. I also explained I couldn't do a direct debit each month as my bank account was in a state due to charges. The magistrates were very sympathetic to this- I think they appreciated my honesty!

 

I had taken with me £100 of my benefit money- they told me to keep it and to pay a first payment of £15 only then and there. From then on the agreed to me sending a postal order of £15 per month to the council direct.

The court managed to make a difficult situation much easier.

My only advice is be as honest as possible, and don't offer any more than you can afford on a bad month!

 

I hope this helps.

[The Phantom]

I have had another letter from Nat West saying they will take me to court

for this debt, and I will get a court pack through the post.

When this arrives is there any chance to get assistance filling it all out ?

I still can't see what they are trying to achieve

They are trying to get a CCJ against me on a £500.- per month income (net) (as I work only part time) to repay a rather substantial amount which was taken out in joint names and on joint incomes. I have offered them all I can afford so what is the point ? It is just crazy

[Gingerheid]

Banks tend to be more aggressive if they know you have an interest in a property. They will have an eye on trying to get a charge on it.

 

But don't worry, all the advise here is spot on. The court is not something to be afraid of unless you ignore it.

[The Phantom]

Well, the property is part of my husbands bankruptcy estate and this side of his bankruptcy hasn't been settled yet. The trustees have just informed me that as a joint owner they just have to tell me they can still sell the house despite the fact that I am a non bankrupt co-owner and that I have no right to sell the property etc etc. But also it has been established that the property is so far in neg equity that it is of no value to the trustees and hence they will consider selling it back to me for £1.-, but all of that is not settled. Nothing has been finalised. So at the moemnt I do not own a house or property, the trustee does.

And if I can help it they won't take out a charge on it either, I have read somewhere on the website that if the judge orders a level payment they can't take out a charge in addition to the payment as long as payments are being made in line with the judgement.

I guess I will have to wait for the court papers to come through to see what it is I have to answer / fill out.

Also in one of the letter templates on the website there is a sample letter to send to creditors when they threaten to take you to court after declining your offer of payment. It states you will ask the judge at the matter from the overriding obejctives point of view, alleging the creditor has acted unreasonable in declining your offer. Is that something I can put into the court papers somewhere ?

[The Phantom]

It states you will ask the judge at the matter from the overriding obejctives point of view, alleging the creditor has acted unreasonable in declining your offer. Is that something I can put into the court papers somewhere ?

 

I was meant to say It states you will ask the judge to look at the matter from the overriding objectives point of view....(typo, left most of the sentence off....)

[lookinforinfo]

Don't worry about the form that you have to fill in should it come to it.

Just repeat what you told us on your first post-except the bit about maybe

getting the house for £1-unless the situation has been clarified by that time.

Later, you may have to do an income and expenditure return for the Court

so that they can come to a decision about the repayments.

I still find it hard to believe they will take you to Court.

 

Take their letters down to Trading Standards, especially the one where they

mention the banking code, and say that you are feeling frightened by

the pressure they are putting on you, and can they help?

[andrew1]

Nicole, this is a post I wrote on the ' straw poll' being taken on the site of whether people were intent ongoing to court, I hope it helps and I wish you all the best:

 

"Been on this site since March, been to court before twice to fight off repossession hearings and won - don't ask me how but I did, judge must have liked my face . I should know better, I bought the lawpack, sell the site and the principles of regaining bank charges to everyone I meet both in business and personal who I think might benefit ( amazing how many you wouldn't believe had financial trouble! ) and yet I haven't yet read the lawpack or the book I bought cos I am spending all my time reading and learning from the forum and trying to help others. I have 4/5 claims half done and really should be getting on with them (like now!) won 2 already through sweet talking after Prelim letters and got what I asked for and although I don't want to go to court I do know how reassuring the judges actually are to people who are representing themselves. I actually wrote to the judge after my repo hearing to thank her for the time she gave to going through all my detail when she had a stream of people waiting to come in behind me and she was already running late. She was so thorough, so intelligent and so understanding pointing out everything in laymans terms and taking no stick from the solicitor. If anyone has any fears I'd say please don't be frightened by the experience, just be prepared ( which I'm not yet ). It's just like someone coming to dinner - you prepare for it - .

 

When I came on the forum Bankfodder emphasised the fact that you begin by assuming you'll go to court so that's what I did so to answer the question of the thread - YES! "

[The Phantom]

Hi there, I have posted before and received some real good advice and help, so maybe someone can help again and point me in the right direction

I have got joint debts with my husband who is declared bankrupt (he declared it himself) since October. There is only one debt with Nat West which is joint and a problem. Nat West is claiming the full amount against my husband's bankruptcy estate and is in talks with the trustee and they have now also started a claim for the full amount against me at their local County Court. So they are claiming the full amount twice from both of us separately.

I have received the papers from the court today. I have previously made them an offer of repayment which they turned down and decided to take me to court instead in addition to claiming against my husband. I will make a counterclaim against them for unfair bank charges they have levied which isn't much but I want it deducted anyway, (they refused to do that in previous communication) but can I defend the claim based on the fact they are already claiming the full amount from my husband ? Any money they recover through the bankruptcy estate shouldn't be allowed to be claimed from me again. My husbands bankruptcy is not settled at all yet so they wouldn't know how much they will be getting from there.

[lookinforinfo]

Nicole, if your husband ran up debts on a joint account with you, then even

if all the debt was down to him,you are still jointly responsible with him . Any debts that he runs up on a private or business account of his own, and

where you are not a guarantor, then you are not responsible for those.

 

However, if you submit an income/ expenditure sheet to the Court and they can see that your offer to Nat West was in .line with the sheet, even more so

if you tell the Court that you have set aside that sum of money just in case

the bank change their mind. And you tell the Court that Nw have already

put a claim in for the same amount againt your husbands estate, so you

are concerned that there are two demands for the same amount and you

certainly do now want to have to pay twice. In addition the bank have

included unlawful charges in their debt figure that you are attempting to reclaim. It seems unfair that they can, through their financial muscle, delay

defer and generally harass you with constant phone calls, solicitors and

methods that border on unlawful to prevent you from receiving money that

rightfully belongs to you. Maybe that might be sufficient to convince Judge

not to impose a ccj. You might think of a few more reasons. Especially if

you have instances of NW behaving unlawfully, while you have always been

goody twoshoes.

[The Phantom]

I don't think I have anything to loose, so I intend to file an acknowledgement of service indicating that I intend to make a counterclaim and defend the claim on the grounds that the claimant (NW) is already pursuing the full amount from someone else as well.

The way I see it, they can only recover from me, what they cannot get from the bankruptcy estate. Surely whatever they recover from there has to be deducted from the claim against me, and as their claim also includes some unlawful charges their whole sums are incorrect and hence I will try and defend it on that basis and also based on the overriding objectives alleging NW is acting unreasonably

If the judge dismisses it, fair enough, but I think it is worth a try

Also if I defend the case gets referred to my local court I think, rather than being handled by the Telford County Court

[The Phantom]

Once I have filed the ack. of service and working on the defence, would it be possible to publish it here and get a moderator or platinum account holder to proof read it before I send it to the Court ? Would it make sense to send a Request for further information to Nat West asking them to justify the amount they claim based on the fact they are already claiming the same amount from my husband against his bankruptcy estate and are in negotiation with the trustee about it, or should I drop that and just write a defence for the court ?

[lookinforinfo]

Yes by all means put up your defence. Bear in mind that there any number of

members who are Basic Accounters like yourself, but do have comsiderable

knowledge of the Court working etc who may be just as much help if not more so than others who have made more posts. Its often a judgement call,

and usually if someone gives you info that is way offbeam, it is usually

picked up on very quickly.

[The Phantom]

Sure, anybody who has got any suggestions of course.

Didn't mean to be disrespectful