Hi, this is my first post so please be gentle. I recently had four tyres fitted at a local garage that I purchased through Black Circles, this was all fine and they seemed a reasonable bunch. My MOT is coming up so I booked it in with them for the following week. I also asked that once the MOT was complete could they align the wheels as the old tyres had been wearing unevenly. So far so good.

I took the car in as planned and explained not to do the wheel alignment unless the MOT had passed. I was aware any part of the running gear that needed replacing would put the tracking out again. Still all good.

It was a morning appointment and mid afternoon I decided to contact them as I wanted to know if I would have the car in time for the school run. I was informed that the car had passed the MOT and all was in order so they had moved on to the wheel alignment. I was then told there was a big problem and I would need to go in and see the car.

I had asked for a full four wheel alignment. It turns out that whilst attempting the wheel alignment they cracked the aluminium rear sub frame. They explained they would get a local welder to have a look at it and see if he could weld it. Subsequently it turned out it could not be welded so I would need a new sub frame.

They have now sourced and fitted a second hand sub frame and the car is ready for collection. I was quoted £270 + VAT for the sub frame and I am expecting it was a days labour. They did talk to me about it and I said go ahead as what other option did I really have.

I had originally thought it was just one of those things but I am thinking otherwise now. When I took the car in I was expecting a bill in the £100 to £150 region.

They supplied me a car to use whilst they fixed mine which says it is "£15 per period". I guess that is a daily rate. So all in all I am guessing I will be presented with a bill for around the £1000 - £1250 mark but I have not yet had that conversation as they told me the car is ready via voicemail.

Obviously the sub frame was not cracked originally or how could the car have passed the MOT?

So my question is this, should the garage foot the bill for the cost of the sub frame and fitting it?

A quick response would be great as I know they will be on the phone very shortly.

Hope you can help

Ex.

Welcome - will you please name the garage ?

The garage is G & M Auto Repairs Ltd, Chipping Norton, Oxford

I should stress that we have not even spoken about this as yet and so they have not had a chance to offer me any compensation as yet.

There's no way they could have cracked the subframe by doing the alignment.

My guess is that it was already cracked or they're taking you for a ride.

When you get there check the bolts and you will know if the subframe has been replaced.

It will be evident that the bolts have been disturbed and the newly fitted subframe will have old marks of the previous washers as the new ones will not sit exactly in the same spot.

Are they learning from Kwik fit?

I can confirm that it was cracked they showed it me on the ramp and did point out that they thought it was a very bad design. I do believe that they did crack it doing the wheel alignment. They also checked what the price for new one from the dealer would have been which I was told was £1000 + VAT. This was why agreed to one from the breaker.

So, in short, I believe they cracked it and I am certain they will have replaced it and I will expect them to prove that to me.

I believe that they are generally reputable but still the question remains should I be footing the bill when all I asked for was a wheel alignment?

I can confirm that it was cracked they showed it me on the ramp and did point out that they thought it was a very bad design. I do believe that they did crack it doing the wheel alignment. They also checked what the price for new one from the dealer would have been which I was told was £1000 + VAT. This was why agreed to one from the breaker.

 

So, in short, I believe they cracked it and I am certain they will have replaced it and I will expect them to prove that to me.

 

I believe that they are generally reputable but still the question remains should I be footing the bill when all I asked for was a wheel alignment?

Asking doesn't cost anything but my guess is that they will deny cracking the subframe.

To be honest I don't think anyone would be able to crack a subframe by adjusting the alignment.

Even if the track rods were stuck, I can't see the connection.

The mot mechanic might have easily not seen the crack which then became evident to the technician doing the alignment.

They assess the mot based on what they see and sometimes they miss things.

Personally I would be very dubious about getting a replacement subframe from a scrap dealer - you do not know the history of it so could be facing the same thing a few months down the line - as they have already accepted liability for the damage why not try and strike a deal with them for labour to replace it with a new subframe that you have purchased yourself - by buying it your self you can search for a better price

Personally I would be very dubious about getting a replacement subframe from a scrap dealer - you do not know the history of it so could be facing the same thing a few months down the line - as they have already accepted liability for the damage why not try and strike a deal with them for labour to replace it with a new subframe that you have purchased yourself - by buying it your self you can search for a better price

A bit late for that as they have called me to collect the car as the work is finished. I just spoke to the main dealer to see if this is a known fault and they said nobody had ever heard of this happening before and they had never sold a sub frame. The mechanics said that they must have overtightened the adjusters to crack it.

I am sure the guy at the garage originally said that it broke whilst they were doing the alignment. I will ask again when I get there. If that is the case and presuming the original is still there for inspection then it should be easy to assess when it was cracked by the cleanliness of the inner material inside the crack. If the crack was present before I took the car in then obviously it will be full of road grime, if it was not then I expect it to be clean aluminium.

If they can show me that it was already cracked then I guess it is my problem if the crack is clean and new I think it is there problem.

Thoughts?

If they admitted cracking it then they should be footing the bill.

When you go in record what they say as it might come handy.

Having worked in a garage myself - the chances are that they were over zelous with their tools - airguns and hammers!!! what would be helpful to know is the age of the car, how many miles on the clock - as from experience, having broken and sheared a few bolts myself, age and condition is a factor - chances are it was already weak so you could face a tricky debate - was it more lucky it happened in the garage or worse if it happened when you were driving - what ever the case I still feel they should shoulder some of the cost

You should not be contributing a single penny to the replacement of either parts or labour.

They admit to them doing the damage and you are entitled to you car back in the same condition as it went in.

I suggest that when you go in for this conversation, that you take a small recorder in your pocket – make sure that you know how it works and that it gets a decent quality recording and then record the conversation.

It will be very important to get an admission of this because otherwise you will have great difficulty.

If it is they who have broken the subframe then it is clear that they should be responsible for all of the costs of repairing or replacing it.

Don't go in for your conversation without a recorder somewhere, switched on and working

Whatever you decide upon is the right outcome for you don't go in guns blazing

Asking doesn't cost anything but my guess is that they will deny cracking the subframe.

To be honest I don't think anyone would be able to crack a subframe by adjusting the alignment.

Even if the track rods were stuck, I can't see the connection.

The mot mechanic might have easily not seen the crack which then became evident to the technician doing the alignment.

They assess the mot based on what they see and sometimes they miss things.

Hmmm... he wouldn't be much of an MOT tester if he didn't spot a cracked subframe...

TB

Perhaps the garage caused the crack when they jacked it up... TB

The problem is that we are dealing with a lot of if's but's and maybe's - as I said it could depend on the age and condition of the vehicle, and the garage could bring this up - if it happened whilst jacking the car up, or an over zelous mechanic with heavy tools something like this should not crack so easily no matter under what circumstances - the best I would hope for would be for them to cover the labour

Hmmm... he wouldn't be much of an MOT tester if he didn't spot a cracked subframe...

 

TB

There are no if's and but's , the car went in with a sound subframe and should leave in the same condition. Tight nuts and bolts have nothing to do with it, a professional would not force something and the equipment to undo stubborn bolts part of any 'good' repair garages tool box.

The car is a 54 plate BMW 530d with around 105,000 on the clock.

There are no if's and but's , the car went in with a sound subframe and should leave in the same condition. Tight nuts and bolts have nothing to do with it, a professional would not force something and the equipment to undo stubborn bolts part of any 'good' repair garages tool box.

• If that is the case what should I do?
  
• Do I refuse to pay or pay and then dispute later?
  
• Can they hold my car if I will not pay?
  

OK so my point didnt come across clearly enough - there are if's and but's because as you have said the garage should know what they are doing, and in this case how would you prove otherwise - so this leaves us with the questions that if they did a professional job why did this part crack so easily - suggestions - parts like this can fail on a car for various reasons, for instance hitting a pot hole - this could have weakened the joint enough for a simple knock to break it totally - I am not saying its not the garages fault but how do you prove otherwise - how do you prove a sound subframe - yes you can look at it, see the crack and even if it appears to be new it could have happened whilst driving it to the garage - its a tricky argument

There are no if's and but's , the car went in with a sound subframe and should leave in the same condition. Tight nuts and bolts have nothing to do with it, a professional would not force something and the equipment to undo stubborn bolts part of any 'good' repair garages tool box.

Yes they can hold your car if you refuse to pay - the police wont get involved as it is a civil matter

• If that is the case what should I do?
  
• Do I refuse to pay or pay and then dispute later?
  
• Can they hold my car if I will not pay?
  

What should I do then if we can't reach an agreement?

If I pay them do I forfeit any rights?

Should I leave the car there and contact a lawyer?

Have they given you a quote to replace, if so what are the actual words ?

They have sourced the second hand sub frame, fitted it and the car is ready for collection, bill unknown at this point.